War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Aaron]

If I have missed the "various barrier spell which are really good at it" you have mentioned above, please tell me where I can find them.

It is a bit weird, I'll grant you that. Barrier spells create barriers, which use the barrier rules. One of those rules is that barriers act like hardened armor: if the DV doesn't exceed the Armor rating of the barrier spell, it just doesn't penetrate.

Now, this is only good against some of the things that slow is also good against. Slow won't really help against, say, a collapsing wall, just make it more agonizing. But if we are limiting our discussion to, say, a shotgun blast, then yeah, slow is better.

[Yerameyahu]

Can you, with magic, target individual pieces of a cyberlimb? I always thought it was a magical axiom that anything Essence-paid was an inseparable part of that person, magically-speaking. I mean, it'd be pretty crazy to allow insta-kills on vehicles too, but at least they get OR.

[hermit]

They do not get OR, because Slow ignores that.

Basically, warfare in a theater where mages proficient with slow are present is back to shortswords, clubs and man vs. man, because neither kinetic projectiles nor vehicles or any machinery with moving parts is valid anymore. air travel has severe limits because slow can crash any kind of plane, too. also, thur shots are next to nonsensicval with slow because the impact vehicle will only poke the impact zone with 1m/s. Very scary.

And to repeat what was ignored above: Slow doesn't even work for it'S intended purpose, slowing down falling parachute-less parachutists.

[Yerameyahu]

Ooh, does it cause Dune!? Shields and swords, woot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aaron]

Not saying you need physics for spells, but Aaron brought that up, so I wanted to give it a go. On a side note, the Slow spell as is is next to useless for parachutsts, unless they're parachuiting Gnome fireteams, becaue the limiting factor is the accumulated weight - and you get to a lot of weight with a fire team real fast. In effect, it is an i-win card tio be played against all kinetic attacks and all kinds of flying vehicles, or vehicles that have engines (technically, even servos in cyberlimbs have moving parts and could be destroyed or immobilised by this spell). That's what it's good for. Not mass levitate.

Er ... Aaron didn't bring up the need for physics, just that he checks his math when it comes to physics. I believe it's been established that magic is allowed to change the laws of physics in limited places for limited times. So, saying something like:

Say, a bullet with a mass of 10 g moves at 800 m/s and is affected by the Slow spell. Now, if the spell would slow down the bullet instantly, we'd have a force of infinite power working here, which would break the universe.

Is quite insightful, I think.

Here's some un-asked-for advice. If you're okay with the thought of a mass levitate spell, but not with a slow spell, change it to "Mass Levitate" and add one to the Drain Value. If you're okay with the slow spell but can't get your GM and/or players to jive with the physics, tell them that the spell pushes against any object that enters the area of effect. If they're worried about the amount of time that happens (as hermit's quote above), you might want to ask if they're okay with other instantaneous spells that act with force, such as levitate, fireball, or clout, and then offer an olive branch where such effects are not instantaneous, but happen fast enough where the impulse is less than infinity.

Let me pose a counter-question: what if magic in Shadowrun could change the relationships between forces, matter, and energy (the mathematical formulas of physics)? What if it could cause light to bend, or objects to move, or mute waves through the air or the electromagnetic medium, or turn a living being into glop and then change it back without killing it?

[hermit]

Yippie ya yeh. Because being Dune is what Shadowrun really is all about.

Let me pose a counter-question: what if magic in Shadowrun could change the relationships between forces, matter, and energy (the mathematical formulas of physics)? What if it could cause light to bend, or objects to move, or mute waves through the air or the electromagnetic medium, or turn a living being into glop and then change it back without killing it?

That could all be explained with new forces at work. Slow, however, requires more energy to work even once than present in the entire universe, all metaplanes and manaspheres included. That's a slight difference.

Here's some un-asked-for advice. -snip-

That was very helpful and adressed none of the problems a number of people have with the Slow spell.

So why does Slow not cause SR warfare to become Dune warfare? Would you mind explaining?

[Aaron]

Basically, warfare in a theater where mages proficient with slow are present is back to shortswords, clubs and man vs. man, because neither kinetic projectiles nor vehicles or any machinery with moving parts is valid anymore. air travel has severe limits because slow can crash any kind of plane, too. also, thur shots are next to nonsensicval with slow because the impact vehicle will only poke the impact zone with 1m/s. Very scary.

I would agree with that if magicians made up more than an infinitesimal percentage of the population, and powerful magicians a small percentage of those. In an ED world where everyone is a magician, it wouldn't matter what slow spells were out there, because everybody would just powerbolt the bitch.

If you're concerned that players on a loud and chaotic battlefield might encounter a single enemy who is more powerful than the others that takes a different tactic to defeat, then I got nothing. I'm okay with that scenario; makes for a better story. If it's realism you want, then I'd argue that most military outfits wouldn't put their magicians on the front lines.

[apple]

It is a bit weird, I'll grant you that. Barrier spells create barriers, which use the barrier rules. One of those rules is that barriers act like hardened armor: if the DV doesn't exceed the Armor rating of the barrier spell, it just doesn't penetrate.

Ah, you surely mean that:

If the weapon’s modified Damage Value does not exceed the barrier’s Armor rating (modified by the weapon’s AP), then the weapon is simply not strong enough to pierce the barrier, and the attack automatically fails

The base damage of an assault rifle is 6 -1, added are the successes of the shooter and the ammunition if applicable.

Good luck getting *at least* 6 successes for a rating 6 barrier which means at least a force 6 spell which means at least 6DV drain which means that the mage should have something around 18 dices in his dice pool both for success roll and drain roll.

Aaron, I don´t know how much experience you have with the SR rules. But please: barrier spells simply *suck* when it comes to stopping bullets. They are only acceptable because they can be used to increase worn armor (and in that case the personal armor does not become hardened). Otherwise they depend on hits rolled to get the shild up, something the slow spell simply ignores because it has 100% effectiveness starting with force 1

The slow spell creates a force field which slows down every bullet/round regardless if its an 1DV or a 25DV attack (the latter would just vaporize almost any barrier conjured by a human sorcerer) even at force 1. It stops tank rounds, artillery rounds, miniguns could fire for seconds at this force 1 spell at 10k rounds per minute and only rounds fired by WW2 main battleships would surpass the 200kg limit for force 1 spell.

Please explain again how a simple force 1-3 slow spell is not a magnitude more powerful then a barrier/armor force 6, especially concerning drain, number of neccessary successes and stopping power against high DV attacks (like, say, high powered rifles and other WAR!-weapons).

SYL

[Aaron]

That could all be explained with new forces at work. Slow, however, requires more energy to work even once than present in the entire universe, all metaplanes and manaspheres included. That's a slight difference.

Are you okay with other instantaneous spells that act with force, such as levitate, fireball, or clout?

Let me offer an olive branch and suggest that all such effects are not instantaneous in the physicsy sense of the word, but happen fast enough where the impulse is less than infinity but it might as well be instantaneous for game purposes. You know, kinda like the time my physics teacher in high school stated (quite rightly) that one meter was a close approximation of infinity for the purposes of studying optics.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* It's not the first SR4 rule, or even spell, with well-intentioned effects (… and accidentally broken results). Change the mass requirement to a kinetic energy requirement, or momentum if you prefer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm not familiar with the energy contents of all metaplanes and manaspheres… which book?

[hermit]

I would agree with that if magicians made up more than an infinitesimal percentage of the population, and powerful magicians a small percentage of those. (...) If you're concerned that players on a loud and chaotic battlefield might encounter a single enemy who is more powerful than the others that takes a different tactic to defeat, then I got nothing.

The kind of powerful magicans who can cast a spell at force 1?

Also, 3% of the total population isn't infinitesimal. Even in a highly militarised society such as North Korea, only 10% of the total population serve in the army. Draft half your total population of awakened (all who are mages) and you well have enough to completly make all kinds of technology more modern than clubs useless.

This is not about one powerful foe. It is about an area effect spell that destroys all kinds of technology. You could put it in a spell lock and place it somewhere and you have a no-tech zone. You could anchor it somewhere and create a permanent no-tech zone. Then, the only force of note would be magicans.

Would a world where the main weapons are magic and clubs still be Shadowrun? Would it make for a better story of magic meets machine?

Let me offer an olive branch and suggest that all such effects are not instantaneous in the physicsy sense of the word, but happen fast enough where the impulse is less than infinity but it might as well be instantaneous for game purposes. You know, kinda like the time my physics teacher in high school stated (quite rightly) that one meter was a close approximation of infinity for the purposes of studying optics.

That's the assumption for my draft of an errata to Slow.

I still wonder, did you ever playtest that rule? The abuse potential is mind boggling.

[Aaron]

I would classify it as _extremely unusual_ for a line developer to have a weekly meeting with all freelancers, or even just all the writers.

A weekly meeting during a project for those working on the project? Perhaps. Focused meetings when necessary? Absolutely. But weekly meetings that require people to be there who don't need to be there (and in the case of freelancers who aren't paid to be there) ... ugh, not a good use of people's time, IMO.

Now that I think about it, that was back when I was co-coordinator of SRM. So, never mind. =i)

[sabs]

Damn, if I'm Amazonia this sounds awesome.
Not to mention, I sneak into a major industrial complex, I activate said spell, put it on a sustaining focus, and bury said sustaining focus.

Awesome terrorism.

You can't risk letting mages on Airplanes anymore.

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe, could you ever let a mage on an airplane? They might bring nail clippers.

[sabs]

Oh well true, really letting a mage on a plane would be crazy.

Btw, the slow spell makes my 1 spell casting 5 adept Mystic Adept knife fighter, awesome.

[CanRay]

Hehe, could you ever let a mage on an airplane?

"I'm sorry, Sir, but you have to turn over all weapons before boarding."

"I don't have any weapons. In fact, I'm in FLIP FLOPS AND A SPEEDO! Everyone here can see I'm not carrying any weapons, and I think I traumatized that child back there."

"I understand that, Sir, but our Watcher Spirits have been able to determine that you have magical abilities, and those are considered weapons under the new travel laws. Now, leave your weapons behind, or leave the line."

"The magic ability... IS MY BRAIN!"

"Sir, do not yell. And I don't make the rules. If you have an issue with this, take it up with your local politician. However, as you are unable to leave your weapons behind, you cannot fly on this flight. Please get out of line. And please, for that child's sake, GET SOME PANTS ON!"

[Sengir]

And to repeat what was ignored above: Slow doesn't even work for it'S intended purpose, slowing down falling parachute-less parachutists.

Oh, it slows them really well. Sure, being slowed down from 200km/h to 196,4km/h might have some side effects, the spell description does not claim otherwise (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hermit]

Touché, but I think that's tio be handwaived as "it's MAGIC". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Besides, unless you airdrop only a five man team, you will have a hard time with the weight ratio.

[Yerameyahu]

CanRay, that is total bullshit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You know perfectly well that Watchers can't determine anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[otakusensei]

We use Basecamp and forums for project management, Google Docs for manuscript work and some document sharing, and Dropbox for other filesharing. Plus email, IM, FTP, and Skype.

Google Docs rocks. I've found Gladinet to be a good addition for editing PDFs stored in Google Docs.

[rinman]

Some additional questions regarding the Slow Spell

How large is the area of affect? Sphere big enough for the Mage or can it be created to encompass a much larger area?
Does it affect the velocities of biological functions within the area of affect? I.E. velocity of air moving into and out of the lungs? (which can exceed 1m/s), nerve impulses?
Does it slow all velocities entering the aoe to 1m/s? Light, sound, radio waves and etc?

[apple]

How large is the area of affect?

As with all area effects: (force) meter radius, so force 1 = 2m diameter etc.

Does it affect the velocities of biological functions within the area of affect? I.E. velocity of air moving into and out of the lungs? (which can exceed 1m/s), nerve impulses?

Despite the game balance problems and the generel very poor design: the spell was not designed as a killer spell, so no, you shoud be able to breath normally in it. Think of it as a spell which "only" reduces your movement score to 1m/s. Its not a time warp spell.

Does it slow all velocities entering the aoe to 1m/s? Light, sound, radio waves and etc?

Same here. It that case you must be so generous and see the spell something like Neo pulled of in Matrix 2 where all bullets stopped right before him. It is not intended to be a dark shere / communication blockout sphere etc.

SYL

[hermit]

I agree. It's just poor design and poorer writing that might benefit from some clarification and a bit of a reversal in effectiveness - less Bullet Barrier and more a cushion for no-parachute airdrops.

It might even help to up the TN with the target's speed, and this spell as-is is balanced with a single additional sentence.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

For the reason any of those toys are either unnecessary duplicates of existing toys (things like the safe fire smartlink), plain UberGear that break the scale assumed by the whole system (Response 10 for everyone) or simply are irrelevant from a rules perspective (nukes and thor shots).

The implants and magic stuff is even worse.

If there is one thing I like about the fact that they did put a price tag on a thor shot is that now you can actually calculate how many successes you need on the favor table to ask a contact for one (granted said contact has the means to ask for a thor shot).

[hermit]

Technically no, but any sensible GM would houserule like that.