War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Rotbart van Dain...]

If there is one thing I like about the fact that they did put a price tag on a thor shot is that now you can actually calculate how many successes you need on the favor table to ask a contact for one (granted said contact has the means to ask for a thor shot).

That's not about list price. In fact, that part of the favor is negligible. It's about the implications of the act itself - both political and financial.

Remember the rules of the CC – if you get caught breaking something, you pay for it. And there is no deniability when it comes to orbital weapons.

[KarmaInferno]

That's not about list price. In fact, that part of the favor is negligible. It's about the implications of the act itself - both political and financial.

Remember the rules of the CC – if you get caught breaking something, you pay for it. And there is no deniability when it comes to orbital weapons.

Sure there is. That's what "accidental discharge" is for.

In fact, if I was a megacorp, I'd have some 'design flaws' snuck into the "public" plans to explain away any accidents.

The actual satellite, though, wouldn't have them.




-k

[Rotbart van Dain...]

That's what "accidental discharge" is for.

Not really – accountability includes "accidents" and accidents. It only will make you look unreliable.

[JongWK]

M-60s typically don't make good table pieces though. Not enough room for the roast, and there's always that one whiney guy that doesn't want the machine gun pointed at him all evening.

I believe the formal name for the seat is "My Daughter's New Boyfriend" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Grinder]

Aaron, hermit: stop it.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Not really – accountability includes "accidents" and accidents. It only will make you look unreliable.

That's what shadowrunning is for. Show reports that a team of deniable assets invaded a facility and made a terrorist attack, give the identities of shadowrunners and say they will be brought to justice. I mean, really, you have to make a really nasty thing to be given an Omega Order.

[apple]

Brazil, they are talking about "accidential" thor shots. Thats not the thing you can do normally with runners. And yes, accidential thor shots can lead to accidential omega orders. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I mean, really, you have to make a really nasty thing to be given an Omega Order.

Indeed. Otherwise, you just will pay.

[Shrike30]

So, I'm hearing a whole bunch of reason to not buy this product on PDF. Am I right?
Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?

I've done the Internet equivalent of going to your FLGS and reading through the book before you decide to buy it and take it home.

War! was billed as being a sourcebook aimed at how folks go to war in 207X, what with drones being prevalent, magic and paracritters being a reality, and the Matrix being integral to many battle plans. It was, in theory, to look in on national and corporate military units, mercenary companies, the equipment, tactics and strategies used by those groups, and give us a pretty good short tour of a number of warzones across the world, with a large focus on the Aztlan/Amazonia war. I was all for a slightly-less-art, slightly-more-detail version of Fields of Fire that addressed tactics in addition to kit, and maybe went into the kinds of forces these groups might actually throw at each other before they hit the cost-benefit ratio point.

What I found instead was:
50-odd pages of what reads like the Bogota sourcebook.
A dozen or so pages about mercenaries.
A section called "The War" which starts to get into some interesting discussion about tactics but then suddenly is talking about Bogota culture and demographic interactions again (up to page 95 now).
20 pages on Bogota neighborhoods.
10 pages on Global Hotspots
50-odd pages of game information, ranging from new guns, decks, and vehicles to different rules for suppressive fire, "strategic combat" (kind of a revamp of vehicle combat from the corebook), some background on what running a military campaign might entail along with addressing the archetypical list of shadowrun jobs (and how they make/do not make sense for a military unit to pursue), and some ideas for dealing with PTSD and the like.

I'm not likely to buy this one. Sorry, guys, but I honestly wasn't looking for what you're selling here.

[binarywraith]

Actually, I hadn't realized how bad of an ongoing design issue this is. I just picked up SR4A to catch up on the new system since I generally run SR3, and I'm seeing the same proofing problems in there, combined with massive re-use of old graphics and a dearth of rules for what was previously basic equipment. With sidebars shilling for the 'advanced' rulebooks.

[Sengir]

and I'm seeing the same proofing problems in there

Huh? You must be having a different book than I have

With sidebars shilling for the 'advanced' rulebooks.

It's supposed to be a beginners' book, those always have "recommendations" for further purchases...

[Shrike30]

Yeah, I've got no issues with my copy of SR4A. It's since then that I've started seeing issues.

[binarywraith]

I've got the PDF, since my local gaming store doesn't carry SR at all anymore, so it could be things that got fixed before it went to print.

[kzt]

Yeah, I've got no issues with my copy of SR4A. It's since then that I've started seeing issues.

Adam did the layout for SR4A, I don't see any obvious issues with it.

[Adam]

Actually, I hadn't realized how bad of an ongoing design issue this is. I just picked up SR4A to catch up on the new system since I generally run SR3, and I'm seeing the same proofing problems in there, combined with massive re-use of old graphics and a dearth of rules for what was previously basic equipment. With sidebars shilling for the 'advanced' rulebooks.

Granted, it's been almost two years since I built SR4A, and a lot has happened since then, but I don't remember any equipment/rules being removed, compared to SR4. Some stuff may have been moved out of the core and into advanced books during the SR3 -> SR4 transition, but in SR4 -> SR4A I remember stuff being copied *into* the core rules from an advanced book (such as the rules for making drugs, from Arsenal.)

Yup, some art was re-used. It was an expensive book to make and so we had to dig into the archives to make it possible -- plus, with 20 years of kickass art, why not revisit some of it?

If you don't like SR4A, that's fine. But I think your critiques of it aren't as accurate as you think they are.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Pretty much the only thing I can point out that was dropped in SR4->SR4A were the rules for Piracy.

[Sengir]

I've got the PDF, since my local gaming store doesn't carry SR at all anymore, so it could be things that got fixed before it went to print.

Got the PDF, too, and I really can't follow your criticism. Sure it has various vague rules, inconsistent use of terms and other stuff which has fueled countless rule debates - in other words, the usual. Even if there were twice as many issues, it wouldn't come close to the sheer sloppyness of recent sourcebooks.

And I believe your were talking about changes from 3rd Edition to 4th, not the original 4th Ed BBB compared to 4A. Well, old rules are not my strong point, but let's just say all my sudden urges of "Must. Convert. This" came from flipping through old "expansion" books. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Aaron]

I'm a bit surprised by Aaron saying that he does submit his draft and never gets any feedback on it (or did I understand that wrong?).

I get feedback on it. Usually I change it according to the feedback (which is my job: making words that my clients want). I'm not flawless like some other writers, and I love editors and proofreaders. If I find something egregious or just wrong, I'll make an appeal, but I limit myself to one; if I can't convince a developer in one go, I'm either wrong, not convincing, or that's just not what s/he wants.

Sometimes I only get one draft, though. Some companies only want the one. Some individual developers will take my work and change it themselves, rather than marking it up and handing it back.

[binarywraith]

Granted, it's been almost two years since I built SR4A, and a lot has happened since then, but I don't remember any equipment/rules being removed, compared to SR4. Some stuff may have been moved out of the core and into advanced books during the SR3 -> SR4 transition, but in SR4 -> SR4A I remember stuff being copied *into* the core rules from an advanced book (such as the rules for making drugs, from Arsenal.)

Yup, some art was re-used. It was an expensive book to make and so we had to dig into the archives to make it possible -- plus, with 20 years of kickass art, why not revisit some of it?

If you don't like SR4A, that's fine. But I think your critiques of it aren't as accurate as you think they are.

Hrm. Must have been irritated when I wrote that, I came off as more of an ass than I generally do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I'm going from SR3 -> SR4A, not SR4 -> SR4A, and in .pdf to boot. So my frustrations may be less of a problem for those already familiar with SR4, or who have a physical copy they can stick a post-it in to refer back to what page something is in easily. The 'proofing issues' I was seeing are literally letter-replacement typos that I'm sure are likely fixed in the hardcopy.

As far as the art goes, I was just rather surprised to see cover art from SR1 era books showing up in the new works. It certainly wasn't meant as a complaint about quality of art, as I rather like seeing things like the Shadowtech cover piece again fifteen years down the road.

[Ascalaphus]

Tip: the SR4A .pdf has a contents sidepane thingy that's really handy when looking for stuff.

I'm actually kinda bummed I have the SR4 in deadtree instead of SR4A. SR4A is much prettier.

[hobgoblin]

As far as the art goes, I was just rather surprised to see cover art from SR1 era books showing up in the new works. It certainly wasn't meant as a complaint about quality of art, as I rather like seeing things like the Shadowtech cover piece again fifteen years down the road.

Well SR4A in particular was printed to celebrate that SR have been in production for 20 years, so the use of the art is as much a tribute to the books that started it all as a cost saving measure.

[sabs]

and SR4A is actually one of the best products Catalyst has put out for SR.

[Method]

SR4A is one of the best product anyone has ever put out for SR.

[hermit]

I wouldn't go that far, but it's the best for this edition, save the German-only Berlin book.

[tete]

Not to downplay how great SR4A is but I enjoyed Seattle 2072 more. Mostly from the updates to the old street talk. I still remember reading about possible nagas in the basement in the original and then reading in 2072 that the Nagas were infact there! great stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) granted I did find a typo or two