War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Cochise]

Possession by unique spirits was featured as early as Prime Runners and Spectres could have the possession power of free spirits in SR3.
So both preexisting canon and corresponding rules allowed for the things described.

Still the nature of these spirits / spectres to a certain extend didn't quite fit with the general, more fluff oriented aspects of spirit existance.

There is no need for every description to change the world, as you imply.

Where did I imply that every description should change the world? What I wrote clearly says right here that WAR! actually does change the world whereas the previous incarnation of Auschwirtz didn't ... or at least not to an extend that made it relevant for the gaming universe.

In fact, that would be pretty detrimental in this case.

~Gosh~ I wonder why I even bothered to mention that the long term consequences of the WAR! section are totally different ... pretty clear that I'm unaware that changing the world by such "trivial" things can be very detrimental? ...

"forget" about Auschwitz?

Yes ... Each GM, each Player and even the meta plot could have forgotten about Auschwitz after SoE simply because there weren't any implications of major world turning events in there, yet there were minor ones. You yourself said that it merely was a historical place that helped with immersion. So regardless of how crappy one can see the SoE section or how tasteless the SoE stuff could be perceivee, the WAR! section is totally different right there. Since your conclusion at the end of the posting is pretty much the same as mine before, I can't quite understand why you're even trying to argue with me here and why the hell you're even suggesting that I implied things that I nowhere stated?

You have had better days RvD ...

Not quite, it was specifically unresolved in SoE:

And the resolution mattered to whom? You? Me? The (gaming) universe as a whole?

Again: SoE specifically notes that the barrier is not a "solution" anymore, see SoE p. 119.

And that's the point where - to me - it rightfully deserved the "crappy" label, since right there it shares the problem of potentially causing world changing effects and opening up the "bad taste" area, albeit not as drastic as the ones that come with WAR!. SoE still had the great advantage that you could still handwave the whole issue.

"bad ramifications"? The worst that can be said about the SoE description is that it did not act as a "world changer" or "adventure themepark".

The worst I can say is that the SoE parts already had the potential as hook for world changing events (since there were undisclosed powers at work that weakened the barrier, that would actually need the resolution you mentioned twice now, thus opening the potential for the whole "bad taste" area in the first place). The ramifications about spirits and their existance - despite canon precedence cases - weren't good either.

The latter is exactly what's so wrong with the part from War!…

So now tell me: Why are we having this discussion? Just because you don't share my POV on the SoE entry being crappy as well, although I clearly said that it's a totally different level of crappiness to me? If that's the case you could have resorted to private message or a different thread, because right here you're opening a totally irrelevant side discussion although - in regards to the topic at hand: WAR! - we're in total agreement that the WAR! section acts as major world changer (for example on the levels I outlined before) and bad taste example (the "adventure thempark" hook about killing spirits to get their treasures).

~sigh~

[sabs]

It's not just a theme park killing spirits.
It's a theme park killing spirits that are the ghosts of genocide victims.

It would be like Opening up a Stomp the Zombie Theme park in Rwanda.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The description in SoE conforms to the ghosts and unique spirits as outlined in MitS.

[…] or at least not to an extend that made it relevant for the gaming universe.

Relevancy to the game universe in the form of a description does neither require change nor does the description in SoE doesn't contain change.

Of course, the Order of Sylvester did not vanish from the sixth world, so there is no indication that there will be "long term consequences" for the scenario in War! at all.

Each GM, each Player and even the meta plot could have forgotten about Auschwitz after SoE simply because there weren't any implications of major world turning events in there, yet there were minor ones.

That does not mean that a description of such a place is not needed.

You yourself said that it merely was a historical place that helped with immersion.

No, I said that even if that would be the case, it would constitute relevancy.

Since your conclusion at the end of the posting is pretty much the same as mine before, I can't quite understand why you're even trying to argue with me here and why the hell you're even suggesting that I implied things that I nowhere stated?

I disagree with your assessments that the description in SoE is "crap" or has "bad ramifications": It does not contradict canon nor SR3 magic rules, it is neither factually wrong and it does not turn the area into either a disrespectful "dungeon" nor does it set it the current state of affairs in stone and prohibits play in such area.

And the resolution mattered to whom?

There is no resolution in SoE, so it can't "matter" to anyone.

And that's the point where - to me - it rightfully deserved the "crappy" label, since right there it shares the problem of potentially causing world changing effects and opening up the "bad taste" area, albeit not as drastic as the ones that come with WAR!.

So you consider it "crappy" because SoE might impose ethical dilemma on people that need to stop ghosts to save lives? Because that's not what I would label as "crappy".

since there were undisclosed powers at work that weakened the barrier […]

Uh… no, there are no such powers – the ghosts grew stronger in the wake of the comet (which did a lot weirder things), thus bypassing the barrier and priests. SoE does not specify the barrier as failing – it even stats it pretty decent.

The ramifications about spirits and their existance - despite canon precedence cases - weren't good either.

Uhm… such ghost occurrence is all over the sixth world, in fact SoE specifically mentions ghost occurrence due to the euro wars. It's nothing special to Auschwitz.

So now tell me: Why are we having this discussion?

The wrong premises (barrier failing, spirits not conforming to rules) made me wonder about your conclusion ("crap").

But if your only issue is pretty much that people would have to stop the ghost of an inmate on a rampage for vengeance in SoE, then I agree this a whole different ballpark than shooting and enslaving them for profit like in War!.

[hermit]

Renraku, sure, but that's the kind of dumb name I can bet a real corporation would have, especially one that started as a telecom and networking company.

They actually started out as a Slovakian armaments company named Izom Armaments.

[Adarael]

Uhhh... They started out as Renraku Holdings, founded by Aneki, as far as I recall? They're a Japanese corporation who got their seat on the Corporate Court by absorbing Keruba International. Where did you read they started as a Slovakian arms firm?

[Kagetenshi]

They actually started out as a Slovakian armaments company named Izom Armaments.

Slovenian, and they were Keruba International. Izom is a subsidiary.

Uhhh... They started out as Renraku Holdings, founded by Aneki, as far as I recall? They're a Japanese corporation who got their seat on the Corporate Court by absorbing Keruba International.

Depends on whether you consider the "start" to be the real substantive company or the holding company (just Renraku; it's a holding company, but not named Renraku Holdings) that bought it and gave it its name and CEO.

~J

[Adarael]

Edit because Kage edited his post first.

Eh. I'd say buying out another corporation doesn't turn you into that corporation; you're still your own corporate entity, and they're theirs, regardless of who's getting paid. I'd say the difinitive "start point" would be when Renraku renamed itself Renraku Computer Systems in the 2030s or whatever. I'd still consider Ford to be a car company, even if they (for some strange reason) bought Kraft foods.


Aneki's immediate actions upon acquiring Keruba was to use them to leverage Renraku into the electronics, computer, and networking businesses. Or so I recall from Corporate Download, which admittedly is a little hazy. I seem to recall Aneki's interest in Keruba was basically in using them as a stepping stone to threaten Fuchi and MCT on their home turf, rather than directly challenge SK or Ares.

[Kagetenshi]

Eh. I'd say buying out another corporation doesn't turn you into that corporation; you're still your own corporate entity, and they're theirs, regardless of who's getting paid.

Would you say that in the case of, say, the Apple acquisition of NeXT? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'd say the difinitive "start point" would be when Renraku renamed itself Renraku Computer Systems in the 2030s or whatever. I'd still consider Ford to be a car company, even if they (for some strange reason) bought Kraft foods.

Aneki's immediate actions upon acquiring Keruba was to use them to leverage Renraku into the electronics, computer, and networking businesses. Or so I recall from Corporate Download, which admittedly is a little hazy. I seem to recall Aneki's interest in Keruba was basically in using them as a stepping stone to threaten Fuchi and MCT on their home turf, rather than directly challenge SK or Ares.

The important thing here is that Renraku wasn't anything; it existed for the purpose of owning Keruba (and possibly some other companies). Corporate Download suggests that it was originally a standard corporate raiding, with the intention being to sell off the pieces, but that Aneki changed his mind for unknown reasons and hung onto it.

~J

[Adarael]

Well, Apple/NeXT is a little strange, since Apple and NeXT were already in functionally the same business spheres. So that's cheating! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Either way: Renraku seems a sensible name for a company that - at some point or other - became a computer/networking company.

[Nath]

They actually started out as a Slovakian armaments company named Izom Armaments.

Not exactly. Keruba International, a Slovenian consortium of military manufacturer (seemingly named after local businessman Kerpan Ubavie) was one of the Big Seven. To sum it up, it developed the first truly operational military vectored-thrust vehicles, and invested the money in telecoms and computers, with little results. Their labs made some breakthrough in memory storage technology, but those were not compatible with existing tech. In 2029, Ubavie died in a plane crash. Japanese raider Inazo Aneki created Renraku Holdings with several investors to take over Keruba. He originally wanted to sell it piece by piece, but the death of Ubavie, the economic crisis that followed the Crash and the start of the Eurowars made Keruba market value fall sharply. Then, when corporations like Fuchi started to build the new Matrix, they choose Keruba memory storage technology as the new standard, making Renraku Holdings rich. However, Keruba companies were so heavily plagued with corruption the corporation almost went bankrupt by 2038. Inazo Aneki decided to clean the house, and sold most of Keruba armament companies, while keeping the telecom and computers business and expanding them, first in Japan.

There are no particular information on Izom Armaments, except that the name suggest it's an Eastern European armament company ("izom" means "muscle" in Hungarian, and is also a Slovenian name). It is the only known subsidiary of Renraku with such profile. It would make sense for it to be one of the former core companies of Keruba.

[Cochise]

~sigh~

The description in SoE conforms to the ghosts and unique spirits as outlined in MitS.

I still see a stronger emphasis in the section that implies that these entities truely ARE the representation of the "souls" of people instead of the more vague standings in MitS.

Relevancy to the game universe in the form of a description does neither require change nor does the description in SoE doesn't contain change.

The failing barrier had relevance for the gaming universe to a limited extend: It made you "want" a resolution to the situation.

So the situation (no barrier) in War! is "totally different" from the situation pre 2035 how? Or "totally different" from the one 2061+ (leaky barrier)?

Overall effect on the gaming universe? And going by what I have written so far and even in accordance to your own conclusions the answer is quite obviously "yes, WAR! is totally different there".

The Order of Sylvester did not vanish from the sixth world, so there is no indication that there will be "long term consequences" at all.

Really? A new field for research concerning newly introduced magical artifacts with very intersting properties are not bound to have long term consequences?
An (not totally unnamed but unknown) entity that activily brought down the barrier despite the Silvestrines presence does not have any long term consequence towards the general balance of ingame powers?

That does not mean that a description of such a place is not needed.

Nor does it mean that it's needed, at least not without WAR!. With WAR! there now is need for further description on various levels.

I disagree with your assessments that the description in SoE is "crap" or has "bad ramifications": It does not contradict canon nor SR3 magic rules, it is neither factually wrong and it does not turn the area into either a disrespectful "dungeon" nor does it set it the current state of affairs in stone and prohibits play in such area.

Yet it opened the szenario up to a point where there was need for a resolution and already included the "bad taste" trap that it went right into now. And it still contains a description of spirits that - at least to me - actually didn't totally fit with the SR3 outlook on spirits and their true nature. So I guess we have to agree on disagreeing whether or not the Soe entry was "crap" or not and whether it held "bad ramifications" for the SR universe or not.

There is no resolution in SoE, so it can't "matter" to anyone.

How convenient ... Am I now allowed to forget about something that now by your own words didn't really matter to anyone? The fact that it couldn't matter to anyone doesn't change the result in any shape or form.

So you consider it "crappy" because SoE might impose ethical dilemma on people that need to stop ghosts to save lives? Because that's not what I would label as "crappy".

No, I consider it "crappy" pretty much because it imposed said dilemma in addition to suggesting that one would be killing "souls of dead" not ghosts (albeit not as strong as now) and because it opened up the "bad taste" trap the WAR! author fell right into.

Uh… no, there are no such powers – the ghosts grew stronger in the wake of the comet (which did a lot weirder things), thus bypassing the barrier any priests. SoE does not specify the barrier as failing.

Since I currently can only work with my faded memories about SoE that deal with the nature of the spirits mor than with the barrier itself. I now have to ask you: Did SoE specify the barrier as failing or not, because here you claim it didn't while so far (and later on) you did (and do) the opposite.
As for the powers that you claim don't exist: So Ghost overall growing stronger aren't a power by your definition? Undisclosed powers as source might have been the wrong wording, because strictly speaking the comet is part of the reason behind it, but it didn't quite reveal how that change was brought about: Did the spirits spntaniously increase their force? What would be the canonic rule behind that?

Uhm… such ghost occurrence is all over the sixth world, in fact SoE specifically mentions ghost occurrence due to the euro wars. It's nothing special to Auschwitz.

I still have the - potentially unfounded - feeling that the SoE depiction of said ghosts made them more special in terms of hinting towards them being actual souls rather than spirits with an unspecified agenda.

The wrong premises (barrier failing, spirits not conforming to rules), made me wonder about your conclusion ("crap").

Huh? It was you who brought in the barrier failing in regards to SoE. For my conclusion "crap" it's rather irrelevant whether the barrier was fully operational (because that would represent the solution for forgetting about it later on) or it failing to a certain extend due to more or less undisclosed power that made ghosts stronger than before. That it's not operational (because of this not frther explained Tetsuo Shuumatsu and his true agenda) in the WAR! setting is beyond doubt.

But if your only issue is pretty much that people would have to stop the ghost of an inmate on a rampage for vengeance in SoE, then I agree this a whole different ballpark than shooting and enslaving them for profit like in War!.

Despite my issues with the SoE entry not being that limited, I still don't get why you bothered to start this derailing discussion and then even blaming me about a "wrong premise" that I didn't even introduce and about which you seem to contradict yourself at least in parts as well. ~shrugs~

Can we finally agree to disagree on our individual weighing of how "crappy" or "consistant" the SoE entry was and focus on the real issue: The crap that WAR! made out of it? Because ... that's kind of "the topic"?

[Grinder]

Can we finally agree to disagree

That would be nice.

[Stahlseele]

And here i thought we don't do nice ^^

[hermit]

Slovenian, and they were Keruba International. Izom is a subsidiary.

Right. Izom is what they kept. Thanks, Kage and Nath.

[Tzeentch]

No, I consider it "crappy" pretty much because it imposed said dilemma in addition to suggesting that one would be killing "souls of dead" not ghosts (albeit not as strong as now) and because it opened up the "bad taste" trap the WAR! author fell right into.

-- No, it clearly calls them ghosts both IC and OOC. Of course you get amusing "huh" stuff like concentration camp ghosts possessing people to kill Humanis members (see p. 119, SoE).

"Within the barrier, thousands of appararitions, specters and unique ghosts are contained, waiting to unleash their pain, misery and wrath on any metahumans foolish enough to venture within." (p. 229, SoE).

-- Putting down the spirits of concentration camp victims down like rabid dogs isn't particularly appealing, but alone it makes sense and isn't shocking. It was that combined with the weaksauce "killing trash mobs for phat epic lootz" that pushed it over IMO.

[hermit]

The overall tone, written like this camp, especially the mass killing area, is some kind of wonderous temple of horrors, didn't really help either.

[Tzeentch]

"Anything for a buck."
-- Every Shadowrunner Ever

[hermit]

That's not the problem. The problem is that the description containing phrases in the way of "Auschwitz 2 is a magnificent monument to terror" is game info, or supposed to be.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"too"? No – they don't compare, at all.
"crap"? Not really, either.

Matter of Opinion... That is all it is... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

Of course you get amusing "huh" stuff like concentration camp ghosts possessing people to kill Humanis members (see p. 119, SoE).

Ugh, seriously? Now I'm starting to remember why I put SoE on the Liber Non Grata.

~J

[Grinder]

And here i thought we don't do nice ^^

Posts like this aren't not as funny as you may think.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I still see a stronger emphasis in the section that implies that these entities truely ARE the representation of the "souls" of people instead of the more vague standings in MitS.

You do, I don't. There was stronger emphasis in SR3 than in SR4 anyway. Nonetheless, that possibility is not excluded even in SR4.
So there is the possibility that academic consensus in SR4 that ghosts are "just" echos of the deceased may as well be wrong, meaning people actually go around shooting and enslaving the victims again in War!.

Overall effect on the gaming universe? And going by what I have written so far and even in accordance to your own conclusions the answer is quite obviously "yes, WAR! is totally different there".

No. My conclusion concerns ethics and taste, not the gaming universe. People doing those things as described in War! are to be expected in Shadowrun, it's just not something a supplement should cheerily suggest players doing.

A new field for research concerning newly introduced magical artifacts with very intersting properties are not bound to have long term consequences?

You mean like all those before? Old news, in this case badly implemented.

An (not totally unnamed but unknown) entity that activily brought down the barrier despite the Silvestrines presence does not have any long term consequence towards the general balance of ingame powers?

It's a rating 8 barrier… that's a simple hit&run astral demolitions job you hire someone for. Not that it made any sense whatsoever, but that's due to the fact the author thought it was a veil like in TNN or Tibet, not an astral barrier.

Nor does it mean that it's needed, at least not without WAR!.
[…]
Yet it opened the szenario up to a point where there was need for a resolution and already included the "bad taste" trap that it went right into now.

Our definitions of "need" obviously differ. To me, the description of Poland in SoE does need a description of Auschwitz to be complete. (It is, after all, the reference for "high end background count")
Nonetheless, the option of doing horribly wrong for profit was not even hinted in SoE – that it wasn't specifically excluded is nothing uncommon for Shadowrun.

Did SoE specify the barrier as failing or not, because here you claim it didn't while so far (and later on) you did (and do) the opposite.

The misinformation that the barrier was failing in SoE was not introduced by me. I actively tried to correct it after consulting more than "faded memories" and provided page references.

Did the spirits spntaniously increase their force? What would be the canonic rule behind that?

In SR3, toxic background count directly added to spirit force aligned with it.

I still don't get why you bothered to start this derailing discussion […]

There is no "derailing" as the situation in War! can't be discussed without context. This context includes the initial description as well as the differences in magic between editions.
Incidentally, the discussion was started by raben-aas liberally smearing around the label "crap" without any reasons given concerning SoE, then you chiming in.

[…] and then even blaming me about a "wrong premise" that I didn't even introduce […]

There is no blame, just correction – whether you "introduced" it or not is irrelevant to that, but you picked it up repeatedly as a fact.

[hermit]

Incidentally, the discussion was started by raben-aas liberally smearing around the label "crap" without any reasons given concerning SoE, then you chiming in.

He just missed the main concern about Auschwitz. It's not that it exists, it's how it is described - "magnificent" really shouldn't be used there - and what it's (ab)used for. Also, why the hell is this even in a collection of mercenary hotspots. Makes no sense, other than the author feeling the absolute need to piss on dead jews. And yes, dead jews, no villagers. The text leaves no room for interpretation.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Also, why the hell is this even in a collection of mercenary hotspots.

Well… it had the word "war" in the Game Information on Oświęcim in SoE, p. 229:

"After the awakening, many former battlefields and sites of carnage from Europe's many wars became haunted by ghosts. Even the recent Euro Wars left their mark, as witnessed by the specters lingering in the battlefields in Pystina near Warsaw-Lodz. But the most haunted and spiritually corrupt areas by far are those were great massacres occurred, particularly former Nazi concentration camps and the Warsaw ghetto."

Combined with concept and the writing style, this complete misunderstanding of the SoE entry as well as RL history makes me think the author of this part of War! got completely drunk, glossed over SoE, stumbled through some Wikipedia links and then wrote down whatever seemed fitting at that moment.

[hermit]

As an aside, I wonder why any German city is still inhabitable of WW2 suffering can have such effects. Think of all the bomb war victims, those murdered in cellar camps, and the brutal cityfighting in the final years of the war.

But anyway, yeah, you may have nailed down the process of writing according to David Hill. Still lost where the hell he got the Wirtz idea from.