War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Rotbart van Dain...]

As an aside, I wonder why any German city is still inhabitable of WW2 suffering can have such effects.

Much more resources (and less "bad taste" involved) to get rid of those.

Still lost where the hell he got the Wirtz idea from.

He's listed as chief doctor on Wikipedia.

[raben-aas]

Much more resources (and less "bad taste" involved) to get rid of those.

OK, how about all other concentration camps? There's more than "just" Auschwitz.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Dachau indeed is missing from the SoE writeup on Bavaria. How does DidS2 handle it?

[raben-aas]

Don't know about Dachau, but the new Berlin sourcebook mentions Sachsenhausen (off-limits area, mentioning of toxic and blood spirits that haunt the place and are drawn to the background of pain/suffering there, mentioning of BGS mages, PsiAid and some non-specified cult all using the location for their own unspecified purposes)

[hermit]

I believe Dachau is handled in a similarmanner, but am AFB and need to look that up this evening for a better reply.

[Kagetenshi]

To me, the description of Poland in SoE does need a description of Auschwitz to be complete. (It is, after all, the reference for "high end background count")

It's the reference for "things looking horrifying on the Astral"—in the list of high-end background count, Hiroshima and Nagasaki both tend to get brought up first.

~J

[Sengir]

As an aside, I wonder why any German city is still inhabitable of WW2 suffering can have such effects.

Background count also seems to be influenced by emotions living people associate with a place ("These domains were created by historic events of epic scope that have significance to most of humanity"). People don't get the same associations from "Berlin" as they do from "Auschwitz"

Still lost where the hell he got the Wirtz idea from.

Me too. Mengele is probably a household name for everybody who knows what the Holocaust was, but Wirths? I admit I had to google that name

[Kagetenshi]

Still lost where the hell he got the Wirtz idea from.

Me too. Mengele is probably a household name for everybody who knows what the Holocaust was, but Wirths? I admit I had to google that name

My guess is that the writer had a sense that Mengele is overplayed and went looking for an alternative, found that Wirths was Mengele's superior, and then went ahead with him without sticking around long enough to find out that he probably didn't personally engage in experimentation.

~J

[Cochise]

~double sigh~

The misinformation that the barrier was failing in SoE was not introduced by me. I actively tried to correct it after consulting more than "faded memories" and provided page references.

Let's see: I wrote that SoE had the spirits and brought along the - what I called "solution" - the barrier, then you "reminded" me that There is no resolution in SoE, with the Sylvestrines starting to fail despite efforts (SoE p. 119)

So it was you who "introduced" the barrier failing, since the Silvestrines only possible failing is that their barrier doesn't work in the desired way anymore. From there on it was just a matter of different views and possibly bad choice of words on both sides.

In SR3, toxic background count directly added to spirit force aligned with it.

So now you constitute that the comet increased the toxic background of said region that already was at 5 prior to the comet?

There is no "derailing" as the situation in War! can't be discussed without context.

Are you actually claiming that in order to call the WAR! section "crap" one must know the SoE entry?
Sorry, but that's something I call bullshit. The things I outlined as being the parts that I deem in the "extremely crappy" category in the WAR! section (and the parts from my initial posting that you ignored in your first answer) can be seen as that without comparing them to SoE. It was raben-aas who said that while he totally agreed that the WAR! section is a stupid thing the SoE part was also crappy. I then just said that they are on different levels of crappiness, thus indicating that I personally agree that the SoE part has in my POV its faults. And from there you started that still needless discussion that SoE in your eyes is not crappy while our conclusion that WAR! is extremely crappy is still identical. And as far as this thread is concerned the only relevant part is the one about WAR! being extremely crappy.

Incidentally, the discussion was started by raben-aas liberally smearing around the label "crap" without any reasons given concerning SoE, then you chiming in.

It would have been better to simply ask first raben-aas as to why he called it "crap" and then possibly me why I agreed to a certain extrend (despite obviously putting "some" effort in making clear that these sections have different magnitudes of crappiness)? Would have been far easier and less derailing, because my simple answer would have been what I have written already twice (with different wordings) now: And that's the point where - to me - it rightfully deserved the "crappy" label, since right there it shares the problem of potentially causing world changing effects and opening up the "bad taste" area, albeit not as drastic as the ones that come with WAR!. That's my individual view on the SoE section and it purely an expression of personal taste. Nothing to argue about it.

There is no blame, just correction – whether you "introduced" it or not is irrelevant to that, but you picked it up repeatedly as a fact.

And I still stand up to that: The SoE section to me still is crap ... but by far not in the regions that the WAR! section reached. So your "correction" is - as it often tends to be when it comes to personal feelings - quite useless.
Can I now ask for a third time that we agree to disagree on our indvidual views concering Auschwitz in SoE?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

So it was you who "introduced" the barrier failing, since the Silvestrines only possible failing […]

No. That's why I specifically wrote "the Sylvestrines", not "the barrier".
Since the Sylvestrines also maintain watcher patrols, to excorcise ghosts that make it through, they can fail in other ways as well – the kind of their failure is not exactly specified.

So now you constitute that the comet increased the toxic background of said region that already was at 5 prior to the comet?

No. You asked for a SR3 way for spirits to spontaneously gain power, I answered your question.

Are you actually claiming that in order to call the WAR! section "crap" one must know the SoE entry?

No. I'm saying that to discuss the setting in War!, the SoE entry is necessary as context.

So your "correction" is - as it often tends to be when it comes to personal feelings - quite useless.

No. Since my corrections concerned misconceptions of facts (The barrier itself is not failing in SoE, the ghosts are compliant to MitS), they are not only useful but necessary, even though they indeed don't relate to your personal opinion.

About the opinion part, I don't care to disagree.

[hermit]

It's the reference for "things looking horrifying on the Astral"—in the list of high-end background count, Hiroshima and Nagasaki both tend to get brought up first.

That's, I think, a cultural matter. It's definitly Auschwitz in Germany and, I'd think, Europe. Since you're Japanese (I assume at least), Nagasaki and Hiroshima are much more familiar, naturally.

My guess is that the writer had a sense that Mengele is overplayed and went looking for an alternative, found that Wirths was Mengele's superior, and then went ahead with him without sticking around long enough to find out that he probably didn't personally engage in experimentation.

That's very likely the case, yes.

Background count also seems to be influenced by emotions living people associate with a place ("These domains were created by historic events of epic scope that have significance to most of humanity"). People don't get the same associations from "Berlin" as they do from "Auschwitz"

Yeah, that's a possible explanation.

[Cochise]

~well, well~

No. That's why I specifically wrote "the Sylvestrines", not "the barrier".
Since the Sylvestrines also maintain watcher patrols, to excorcise ghosts that make it through, they can fail in other ways as well – the kind of their failure is not exactly specified.

So? Now you have nitpicked and showed what exatly? That after SoE one couldn't "forget" about Auschwitz on an individual level? Or that there was no basis for deeming it as "crap"? No, you just made it clear, that the Silvestrines failed and that - apart from the barrier itself - there are possible other reasons that opened up the "bad taste" trap because - due to the lack of a resolution in SoE - someone more or less HAD to go back there and do something on a global level ... How that turned out we both still agree upon ... Congrats for achieving nothing there.

No. You asked for a SR3 way for spirits to spontaneously gain power, I answered your question.

Context? My question was about the specifics as to why the spirits grew stronger and thus made the Silvestrines fail (remember: It was you who had to put emphasis on the fact that it wasn't an "undisclosed" power, but the comet that made spirits more successful in overcoming the barrier) and what the canonic reason behind that on level of the rules were? So your answer does again nothing.

No. I'm saying that to discuss the setting in War!, the SoE entry is necessary as context.

Astonishingly enough there are people who never read SoE and are still able to evaluate the WAR! section as "crap". Seems like THEY don't need that entry as context.

No. Since my corrections concerned misconceptions of facts (The barrier itself is not failing in SoE, the ghosts are compliant to MitS),

So now I correct you by saing: The SoE entry does neither confirm nor outright deny that the barrier is failing. And the described ghosts can be viewed as being in line with MitS but it's also possible to see an overemphasis of the potential "soul"-background. That's everyone's own perogative and nothing you wil ever change with your - yet again useless - urges of "correcting" people.

they are not only useful but necessary,

As far as this thread is concerned I find your "corrections" highly unnecesary and I have a slight feeling that this view is shared by at least one person.
So now for the fourth time: Will you let it rest or does your ego not allow to let this pass despite the fact that our common perception of the WAR! section is the only thing that really is of importance in this thread?
Either way, be my guest ...

[Doc Chase]

Looks like we're on a rage wave. Need to wait it out for the calm trough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Each section can be judged on its own merits, or by using one or the other as context. As written, I feel the Auchwitz section in War! was in poor taste - not because of the barrier, or the Sylvestrines, but because you're shooting the ghosts of victims in the face to steal their remaining belongings - what ones that weren't already taken prior-and-post-liberation.

[Kagetenshi]

That's, I think, a cultural matter. It's definitly Auschwitz in Germany and, I'd think, Europe. Since you're Japanese (I assume at least), Nagasaki and Hiroshima are much more familiar, naturally.

American, as it happens. What I mean is that the Grimoire and MitS both mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki before they mention Auschwitz in the description of Level 5 Background Count. Auschwitz only gets specifically singled out for…

Oh, hey, I found the issue. Yeah, turns out that that description of things looking horrifying on the Astral is actually in the introduction to Background Count, so while it isn't the top pick to illustrate Level 5 Background Count, it is in fact the illustrative example of negative Background Count in general. My bad.

~J

[Grinder]

Cochise, Rotbart - stop dissecting each other's posting line by line. You don't agree on many topics, we all got that. Stop it.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

So now for the fourth time: Will you let it rest or does your ego not allow to let this pass […]

Look, I let your ad hominem attacks slide three times, concentrating on the facts. You, on the other hand, suffer from exactly the problem you try smearing – and it shows, poisoned olive branch included. As well as begging the question with statements about possible existence – that's also utterly pointless, please stop doing so.

Let's go back to the only halfway interesting point left:

Context: My question was about the specifics as to why the spirits grew stronger and thus made the Silvestrines fail (remember: It was you who had to put emphasis on the fact that it wasn't an "undisclosed" power, but the comet that made spirits more successful in overcoming the barrier) and what the canonic reason behind that on level of the rules were? So your answer does again nothing.

Granted, on that point I wasn't quite fair – SoE indeed strongly hints that the comet is responsible, even though correlation should not be taken for causality.
So even though I'm utterly convinced that you will be unable to accept any explanation whatsoever let's elaborate: The comet caused a mana spike with widespread effects that had even physical world implications like vulcanic erruptions, metagenetic mutations and appearance of natural orichalcum. This mana spike therefore can very likely increase the background count and/or directly power spirit activities. Target: Awakened Lands provides further insights into the changes the comet caused, including creation of new sites of power.

The SoE entry does neither confirm nor outright deny that the barrier is failing. And the described ghosts can be viewed as being in line with MitS but it's also possible to see an overemphasis of the potential "soul"-background.

Let me iterate again: Game Information put's it at rating 8 without any hint of degradation. The irrelevant statements about possible existence aside, even the latter is fine by canon and RAW, since in the case of ghosts, the rules and background in SR3 play on ambiguity. The "soul"-background is not ruled out. Yes, I know, people hate that with a passion, but that's the way it is.

[sabs]

I suspect that the Rating 8 Barrier was doing fine.. until Haley's Comet. And then, some of the Spirits got mana-spiked and we started seeing Force spirits that could deal with a maintained Rating 8 Barrier.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

That's what's reported ingame, at least. Since defeating a permanent ward in SR3 only made a permanent hole for the specific entity, this would be the reason why there were only outbreaks instead of a total containment failure.

[Fatum]

Well, I gave it a read and I think this section sums up what I dislike quite well. Bear in mind that this is from the Game Information section, not some in-character description by a supersticious villager:

Magic domes around towns. Looters who pry open The Forbidden Tomb™. Ghosts - not pissed or twisted spirits, but actual ghosts. Treasures which are guarded by the ghosts, because evil, haunted dungeons always contain evil, haunted artifacts. Fucking NECROMATIC artifacts. And the living dead.
While all of this would work fine in a generic horror setting, it has NOTHING to do with Shadowrun. The author obviously had no idea of shadowrun magic and how it deals with (un)death - which I can't blame the author for, probably the closest thing to SR he knew until a couple of months ago were the Manei Domini (cybered badass fraction from CBT). Yet you'd think there is an editor who actually reads what the freelancers submit and tells them "sorry, wrong universe"...

Eh-uh, sorry, chummer. Rules for ghosts are in Running Wild, they've been around for some time now (and personally I see nothing wrong about them).
And a magic dome could as well be a system of wards and barriers, which, again, have been around since forever.

[KarmaInferno]

Except, as has been repeatedly pointed out in the past 35 pages of posts, the barrier was already established in SoE as a Spirit barrier, not a general "blocks everything" barrier.

There was no good reason to take the barrier down. If you wanted to go into the area to look for "treasure", you could have just walked in.

The author simply didn't do the research.




-k

[GrepZen]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn't there a 1st edition module that delt with a ghost & possession? IIRC it happened in an English manor and the ghost was trying to protect his wife/GF or something.