How do you roll Data Search?, per SR4A core rulebook Options

[shon]

Somehow I see two ways and I'm not sure which is correct. Here goes:

1. First way: per SR4a rulebook, 'skills' chapter, data search is an active skill based on logic, so my first natural guess is basically roll d.s. + logic.

2. Second way: per same SR4a rulebook, 'wireless world' chapter, p230 (in my PDF) you can do 'data search' as a complex matrix action, but then it's 'data search + browse extended test' and there's even a table on same page with thresholds and such.

So is it:
A. Data Search + Browse
B. Logic + Data Search
C. Something clever I haven't thought of...

And if it's B, is it still an extended test and should we still use the table on p.230 with thresholds and stuff?

I guess this is a fairly common test to do, seeing as my players try searching the matrix for everything they encounter in their lifes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
So I'd like to know what is the proper way to do it.

So, how do you roll this test?

Edit: what I'm also getting at here (but didn't say above) is: if it's A. then a character with Logic = 2 and some (small) money to buy a Browse program with rating 6 should be quite good in data search (provided they have the skill of course)

[Aku]

Welcome to one of the biggest problems with the wireless world: Attribute has no affect on your ability.

[shon]

Oh, so that's what it is... tough then. If they abuse it I'm just gonna houserule it to the (Logic+Browse)/2 + Data Search for the sake of sanity. Lucky we don't have a hacker in the group! (yet...)

[klinktastic]

Well that maybe makes sense for common programs, but hacking programs rating 4-6 get really expensive. That's were the balancing act is. You can just limit the availablity of 5-6 programs if you're really concerned.

[Yerameyahu]

It is intended to be that way. If you don't like it, the book as listed Optional Rules to include Logic.

Data Search is used in different ways for different things, by the way. It depends on what you're searching for, where, etc.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Welcome to one of the biggest problems with the wireless world: Attribute has no affect on your ability.

Actually, not true...

If you are using a Computer, the Roll would be Data Search + Logic...
If you are using a Comlink, the Roll would be Data Search + Browse...

You can, after all, perform computer functions the old fashioned way if you desire to do so. Most people in the 2070's use the comlink version, but the old fashioned way is still valid should you choose that route.

And there are Optional Rules in Unwired, page 39, to use Attrubutes for the Wireless World instead of Programs...

[Yerameyahu]

What old-fashioned way, and available where? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What old-fashioned way, and available where? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Could swear I read in one of the books that you could use the Skill + Attribute COmbination if you were not using the modern methods of SR (Comlinks and all that)... Have not had time to go looking for them again, though, so I could be wrong on that... Maybe it was just a Fluff reference...

But, I prefer the Optional Rule Anyways (Unwired, Page 39)... Attribute + Skill with Hits Limited by Program... Only way to fly in my opinion...

[Yerameyahu]

Nah, that limits hits much too strictly. If you roll well, you should benefit. And forget trying to use Edge under that rule.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nah, that limits hits much too strictly. If you roll well, you should benefit. And forget trying to use Edge under that rule.

Why? Since you are treating the Roll as you would Spellcasting at that point (Programs are equal to Spell Force), then Edge would allow you to bypass the limits. No Problems at all...

And I disagree, I think it is perfect... the Rule Forces the Hacker to actually pay attention to his attributes, and he has an incentive to actually upgrade his Programs...

Win, Win as far as I am concerned...

[Yerameyahu]

I don't understand: hackers don't have incentives to upgrade their programs? And you mean 'attribute', singular. If anything, it forces hackers to suck more and encourages them to be lame stay-at-home brainjars. Yuck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Seth]

I don't understand: hackers don't have incentives to upgrade their programs? And you mean 'attribute', singular. If anything, it forces hackers to suck more and encourages them to be lame stay-at-home brainjars. Yuck!

I'm with you on this Yerameyahu.

IMHO Technomancers are just better than program based hackers, but they have the disadvantage that they have to devote all their points to it: loads of mental attributes, loads of complex forms, loads of skills. Hackers can spend a load of cash, a few skill points and be good at something else.

As an example my wife is playing a physical adept / hacker. She has OK mental attributes (mostly 3s), but has put most of her points into combat. She has all the hacking skills and many hacking programs maxed out, but has enough points to also be good in a fire fight (not up to the troll Street Samurai...but much better than the mage and loads better than the free spirit). If she had to get her mental attributes up high as well, she has to resort to being the stereotyped woman with a suitcase who needs a bodyguard, and this fighter/hacker option is closed to her, so she might as well have been a technomancer....thus the hacker option may as well not have existed.

[Draco18s]

What Tymeaus is saying is: if you're directly interacting with a control panel (i.e. a control panel) you use Logic, rather than Browse.

There are very few cases where this ever comes up, by fluff. Even planes are flown "these days" through rigging (and by extension, I would imagine that nuclear power plants are managed from the matrix as well*). But the option is certainly there. I suppose if you really want to you can have a Tortoise for your character's matrix connection, you can. But everyone would think it would be weird and slow.

*You know, in case it blows up, at least all your employees are fine.

[Yerameyahu]

And I'm just asking, where are those? AFAIK they don't exist, and have no reason to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

And I'm just asking, where are those? AFAIK they don't exist, and have no reason to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Exactly. Physical controls (the only time you get logic) don't exist, ergo: no logic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Exactly. Physical controls (the only time you get logic) don't exist, ergo: no logic.

However, I do prefer that optional Rule for Hacking Rolls to be formed with Logic + Skill, with Hits capped by your Software (per roll of course)... It is just my preference, and is a RAW option to boot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Draco18s]

There's nothing wrong with doing it that way, it does pull Logic back into the equation. Its just not strict RAW (i.e. its an optional).

[pbangarth]

It seems odd to me that every character-type/function has an associated, necessary intrinsic talent (Attribute) except hacking. This may have been a physical implementation of a cyberpunk ideology, "We are all capable of being 'more' through technology", but that concept is not applied to the meat world of the street sam.

It just seems odd.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There's nothing wrong with doing it that way, it does pull Logic back into the equation. Its just not strict RAW (i.e. its an optional).

Which is what I said originally... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

The 'no Logic in hacking' is an intentional difference from the rest of the active skills. The idea is that computers are insanely faster than you. Unlike the movies, no one is doing all their crazy realtime hacking in a text shell.

You can indeed use optional rules to change it, but it's not illogical, an accident, or an error. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

You can indeed use optional rules to change it, but it's not illogical, an accident, or an error. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thus enters the quadriplegic 1/1/1/1/1/1 stat'd hacker.

Is there any rational game mechanics reason that shouldn't work?

[Doc Chase]

Thus enters the quadriplegic 1/1/1/1/1/1 stat'd hacker.

Is there any rational game mechanics reason that shouldn't work?

It does make my AI Hacker/Face viable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

He's Emerging from motivational speaking software, so Logic isn't necessarily a strong suit.

[Yerameyahu]

I think you'll find, Draco18s, that a much more likely result of low Logic requirements is a hacker who's good at other things (including walking, dodging, shooting, taking a hit, Face-ing, etc.); in short, 'being involved in the game'. In fact, requiring Logic as the crucial be-all stat of the Hacker is much more likely to create a stay-at-home quadriplegic 1/1/1/1/1/7/1/1. At least Technomancers have MAD.

[Draco18s]

I think you'll find, Draco18s, that a much more likely result of low Logic requirements is a hacker who's good at other things (including walking, dodging, shooting, taking a hit, Face-ing, etc.); in short, 'being involved in the game'. In fact, requiring Logic as the crucial be-all stat of the Hacker is much more likely to create a stay-at-home quadriplegic 1/1/1/1/1/7/1/1. At least Technomancers have MAD.

Being involved is a good thing, but I've seen more than the reasonable share of paraplegic or quadriplegic hackers because "why would I need to do that?" hacker-player-mentality and the game rules do nothing to discourage it.

Now, most of those haven't been 1/1/1/1/1/1 but more well rounded (more like 1/2/2/5/3/4) but again, due to the mentality ("hackers should be smart" and "I should have some charisma" but "I can skip strength/body/reaction if I'm in a wheelchair").

[Yerameyahu]

I agree, it's possible. Here's my reasoning, though: if you have to boost your Logic as much as possible (that is, there's no limit on how much Logic helps you), *and* Logic is your one stat, your incentive is to spend everything on Logic. As a result, you have less left to be minimally competent elsewhere, and players don't like doing things they're not minimally competent at.

If you don't need Logic, on the other hand, you've got the resources to be *good* at at least one other role; if you're good at it, you'll want to do it. Player involvement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Besides, hackers who want to program and build/repair need *some* Logic anyway, but they aren't strongly pushed into super-maxing it.