Somehow I see two ways and I'm not sure which is correct. Here goes:

1. First way: per SR4a rulebook, 'skills' chapter, data search is an active skill based on logic, so my first natural guess is basically roll d.s. + logic.

2. Second way: per same SR4a rulebook, 'wireless world' chapter, p230 (in my PDF) you can do 'data search' as a complex matrix action, but then it's 'data search + browse extended test' and there's even a table on same page with thresholds and such.

So is it:
A. Data Search + Browse
B. Logic + Data Search
C. Something clever I haven't thought of...

And if it's B, is it still an extended test and should we still use the table on p.230 with thresholds and stuff?

I guess this is a fairly common test to do, seeing as my players try searching the matrix for everything they encounter in their lifes
So I'd like to know what is the proper way to do it.

So, how do you roll this test?

Edit: what I'm also getting at here (but didn't say above) is: if it's A. then a character with Logic = 2 and some (small) money to buy a Browse program with rating 6 should be quite good in data search (provided they have the skill of course)

Welcome to one of the biggest problems with the wireless world: Attribute has no affect on your ability.

Oh, so that's what it is... tough then. If they abuse it I'm just gonna houserule it to the (Logic+Browse)/2 + Data Search for the sake of sanity. Lucky we don't have a hacker in the group! (yet...)

Well that maybe makes sense for common programs, but hacking programs rating 4-6 get really expensive. That's were the balancing act is. You can just limit the availablity of 5-6 programs if you're really concerned.

It is intended to be that way. If you don't like it, the book as listed Optional Rules to include Logic.

Data Search is used in different ways for different things, by the way. It depends on what you're searching for, where, etc.

Actually, not true...

If you are using a Computer, the Roll would be Data Search + Logic...
If you are using a Comlink, the Roll would be Data Search + Browse...

You can, after all, perform computer functions the old fashioned way if you desire to do so. Most people in the 2070's use the comlink version, but the old fashioned way is still valid should you choose that route.

And there are Optional Rules in Unwired, page 39, to use Attrubutes for the Wireless World instead of Programs...

What old-fashioned way, and available where?

Could swear I read in one of the books that you could use the Skill + Attribute COmbination if you were not using the modern methods of SR (Comlinks and all that)... Have not had time to go looking for them again, though, so I could be wrong on that... Maybe it was just a Fluff reference...

But, I prefer the Optional Rule Anyways (Unwired, Page 39)... Attribute + Skill with Hits Limited by Program... Only way to fly in my opinion...

Nah, that limits hits much too strictly. If you roll well, you should benefit. And forget trying to use Edge under that rule.

Why? Since you are treating the Roll as you would Spellcasting at that point (Programs are equal to Spell Force), then Edge would allow you to bypass the limits. No Problems at all...

And I disagree, I think it is perfect... the Rule Forces the Hacker to actually pay attention to his attributes, and he has an incentive to actually upgrade his Programs...

Win, Win as far as I am concerned...

I don't understand: hackers don't have incentives to upgrade their programs? And you mean 'attribute', singular. If anything, it forces hackers to suck more and encourages them to be lame stay-at-home brainjars. Yuck!

I'm with you on this Yerameyahu.

IMHO Technomancers are just better than program based hackers, but they have the disadvantage that they have to devote all their points to it: loads of mental attributes, loads of complex forms, loads of skills. Hackers can spend a load of cash, a few skill points and be good at something else.

As an example my wife is playing a physical adept / hacker. She has OK mental attributes (mostly 3s), but has put most of her points into combat. She has all the hacking skills and many hacking programs maxed out, but has enough points to also be good in a fire fight (not up to the troll Street Samurai...but much better than the mage and loads better than the free spirit). If she had to get her mental attributes up high as well, she has to resort to being the stereotyped woman with a suitcase who needs a bodyguard, and this fighter/hacker option is closed to her, so she might as well have been a technomancer....thus the hacker option may as well not have existed.

What Tymeaus is saying is: if you're directly interacting with a control panel (i.e. a control panel) you use Logic, rather than Browse.

There are very few cases where this ever comes up, by fluff. Even planes are flown "these days" through rigging (and by extension, I would imagine that nuclear power plants are managed from the matrix as well*). But the option is certainly there. I suppose if you really want to you can have a Tortoise for your character's matrix connection, you can. But everyone would think it would be weird and slow.

*You know, in case it blows up, at least all your employees are fine.

And I'm just asking, where are those? AFAIK they don't exist, and have no reason to.

Exactly. Physical controls (the only time you get logic) don't exist, ergo: no logic.

However, I do prefer that optional Rule for Hacking Rolls to be formed with Logic + Skill, with Hits capped by your Software (per roll of course)... It is just my preference, and is a RAW option to boot.

There's nothing wrong with doing it that way, it does pull Logic back into the equation. Its just not strict RAW (i.e. its an optional).

It seems odd to me that every character-type/function has an associated, necessary intrinsic talent (Attribute) except hacking. This may have been a physical implementation of a cyberpunk ideology, "We are all capable of being 'more' through technology", but that concept is not applied to the meat world of the street sam.

It just seems odd.

Which is what I said originally...

The 'no Logic in hacking' is an intentional difference from the rest of the active skills. The idea is that computers are insanely faster than you. Unlike the movies, no one is doing all their crazy realtime hacking in a text shell.

You can indeed use optional rules to change it, but it's not illogical, an accident, or an error.

Thus enters the quadriplegic 1/1/1/1/1/1 stat'd hacker.

Is there any rational game mechanics reason that shouldn't work?

It does make my AI Hacker/Face viable.

He's Emerging from motivational speaking software, so Logic isn't necessarily a strong suit.

I think you'll find, Draco18s, that a much more likely result of low Logic requirements is a hacker who's good at other things (including walking, dodging, shooting, taking a hit, Face-ing, etc.); in short, 'being involved in the game'. In fact, requiring Logic as the crucial be-all stat of the Hacker is much more likely to create a stay-at-home quadriplegic 1/1/1/1/1/7/1/1. At least Technomancers have MAD.

Being involved is a good thing, but I've seen more than the reasonable share of paraplegic or quadriplegic hackers because "why would I need to do that?" hacker-player-mentality and the game rules do nothing to discourage it.

Now, most of those haven't been 1/1/1/1/1/1 but more well rounded (more like 1/2/2/5/3/4) but again, due to the mentality ("hackers should be smart" and "I should have some charisma" but "I can skip strength/body/reaction if I'm in a wheelchair").

I agree, it's possible. Here's my reasoning, though: if you have to boost your Logic as much as possible (that is, there's no limit on how much Logic helps you), *and* Logic is your one stat, your incentive is to spend everything on Logic. As a result, you have less left to be minimally competent elsewhere, and players don't like doing things they're not minimally competent at.

If you don't need Logic, on the other hand, you've got the resources to be *good* at at least one other role; if you're good at it, you'll want to do it. Player involvement.

Besides, hackers who want to program and build/repair need *some* Logic anyway, but they aren't strongly pushed into super-maxing it.

I don't see how this incentive does not exist for all other character types, all other Attributes. They seem to get along alright.

What other character is based on one attribute? Not anyone who has to leave the house, for starters: they need Body for armor, minimal Strength, plus Agility, and Reaction, even if they'll never talk or think. An astral-only Mage (which has much bigger drawbacks than a remote-only hacker) needs at least 2 stats, and more like 4-5 if they want decent astral stats. I guess a remote-only Face only needs Charisma, but it seems like they'd suffer major Face-related limitations that way.

Well then I don't understand your complaint.

If other 'classes' require more than one Attribute to be maximized in order to be efficient, then why is it burdensome to a hacker to have one Attribute necessary for his trade. I understand that secondary Attributes make other Skills available, and therefore help round out the hacker character, but this is just as true for any character, isn't it?

No, my point is that the optional rule makes the hacker a single attribute character, *and* strongly encourages him to hyper-specialize. It's the worst of both worlds. I never said it was burdensome. I think hit-limiting could be, but I'm not strongly worried about it.

In a related (and to me, more important) issue, Logic-basing computer skills hurts all the non-specialists. The great thing about SR4 is that everyone can hack a little, or at least do things online. They're limited basically by skill only in the RAW, but the optional Logic version limits them by skill *and* attribute, plus they can't even get a nice boost from a good program.

I'm not saying 'don't use the optional rule if you like it'. I'm just pointing out some of the possibly less-obvious consequences; personally, I don't like them.

Odd, I actually Do Like them. It completely gets rid of the Hacker Builds that I have seen in the past with Logic of 1 and Programs of 6... By the default rules, you can be better than passable as a programmer with a Logic 1, Software skill 5, Specialty, and a Programming Suite rated 5. So, at the end of the day, the Logic 1 Character is programming with 13 Dice, which I find somewhat objectionable. You call them Script Kiddies, I call them Stupid.

Base everything upon Logic, with Programs capping Hits (Like Magic afterall) and it completley stops the craziness...

Does it force the hacker to be a little more competent in his niche? Yes it does... Does it hurt he hacker in other areas, I would say no. Every Hacker I have ever made has at LEAST a 4 in Logic... And Physicals of 3+... Not hard to do at all... Puts them into the Professional range for almost everything that they want to accomplish. But then again, I am STILL of the mind that 10-12 Dice is Highly Competant (4 Skill, 4 Stat and a Specialty gets you 10 Dice with no other Boosts whatsoever)...

Anyways... Not thinking you and I are going to agree on this... That's okay.

So, you're saying that it doesn't hurt *your* non-optimized, moderate DP hacker builds.

No, I am saying that it should not Hurt ANY Hacker build in the least (especially since the opposition is using the same rules), if the build is based upon rational character development and design. Big Difference.

Builds where the Hacker is all 1's in Physicals are ludicrous and are not grounded in the reality of the game world, regarldess of what anyone else may say. Average Stats for Characters are 3's (at 160 BP of course)... Characters should be built from that starting point, in my opinion, to make some semblance of sense in the game world (It is Where I start ALL of my characters... Average Stats for Character Metatype are altered if starting other than Human of course).

Of course, this is probably where we differ the most. If the Average Stat for Joe Blow is around a 3, why would someone who works the Shadows have much less? Now, of course, there will be times where a character is a little slower mentally or physically in one stat or another than the average person, but to have a whole category of stats be 1's stretches believability in a character to well beyond the breaking point. Most characters like that do not last all that long in any of the games at our table. The closest thing that I have ever created to something like that is the Necromancer I played once... Had Stats of 2 in all of his physicals because of his connections to death magic (body withering away as that connection strengthened). Fun character to play, but he was dead in under 100 Karma (67 if I remember correctly, but it has been a while) because of it...

Not saying that it is the only way to play, of course, just saying that characters statted in such a way tend to break the verisimilitude of the game world.

I never suggested that anyone should have 1s. That was Draco18s. I said that the existing rules allow hackers to have much better, balanced stats, while forcing them to max Logic doesn't. In addition, it hurts non-specialist hackers *more*, because they have almost no way of ever catching up. Overall, it creates a game with fewer mid-range hackers, and less versatile high-range ones. Again, it's the peculiarities of *your* play and *your* table that mask these results, because no one you know ever optimizes anything at all.

Synergy Knowledge Skills.

I'm currently playing a logic 7 hacker/rigger in a friend's game and he's body/reaction: 2 agility/strength: 1, all due to the fact he was shot up a few years ago. I play him a lot like Dr. House in that he walks with a limp, uses a cane, isn't very quick, kind of old, scary smart, lower than average charisma (2) due to abrasiveness, etc (He's my 'homage' to Fastjack and House M.D.'s lovechild). He lives on a boat and generally hacks via the directional antenna wireless link on the nexus built into his floating home.

But while Logic 7 doesn't play directly into any of his hacking tests, for tough extended tests he has a host of knowledge skills which provide much appreciated boosts. Looking for a slow exploit into that dedicated system? Logic + Matrix Architecture: and every two hits provide an extra die on my Hacking + Exploit test, and since he's rolling 12 dice for the knowledge skills, ending up with 3-4 extra dice is not out of the average, making him 3-4 dice better than the logic 2-3 'script kiddie' who relies on the same program rating he is using.

With a Logic 7, Intuition 5, and College educated, I had a veritable 'asston' of free knowledge skill points, and used them all to be able to get 8-12 dice for a synergy knowledge skill tests on virtually any matrix test I could think of. That was how I brought 'Logic' back into matrix tests. There are some holes in it of course, and there are a number of tests he doesn't get anything on (like combat tests), and generally my GM doesn't let me get away with it on stuff that's happening 'right-the-eff-now' and he doesn't have time to puzzle it out using his skills an experience. But most of the time, he has an edge over the kiddies.

There are times that you realy make me smile Yerameyahu...

But "Forcing" Logic to be above a 1 is not problematic, nor should it be, for any Build that I can think of...
In my opinion, reducing Attributes to 1's in the Physical so that the Hacker can "Compete" is flawed logic (heheh), to say the least, and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I really cannot believe that you are promoting the idea that NON-SPECIALIZED Hackers suffer under this rule... They are NON-SPECIALIZED for a reason. Trhowing 6-10 Dice is perfectly Okay in that regard, as far as I am concerned.

Anyways, thanks for the Humor, I really needed it today...

I'm pretty sure I didn't say, 'forcing Logic above 1'. More like, forcing Logic to 6 or 7 just to compete.

There's a difference between non-specialists and 'can't even bother'; requiring high Logic creates the latter category. Currently, hacking is program + skill; non-specialists won't have the best skill, but they can get a solid program. Under the optional rule we're discussing, non-specialists will have bad skill *and* bad Logic, for a DP that can't even bother trying. I guess that's fine, if you want hackers to be very 'special'; I prefer more access for everyone.

For the record, and again, it's not about 1s in *anything*. If it's 2s or even 3s, the hacker who requires the highest Logic will have less available for other things. The hyperbolic 'quadriplegic hacker' (which I didn't bring up) is encouraged by the Logic-rule.

Yes, I know that the Quadraplegic Hacker is not yours, but the arguments you use validate it. And I have seen such characters on many, many occassions...

But why would they "require the Highest Logic"... I ran a Hacker with a Logic of 4 (Which honestly is equal to the Programs that most professionals actually use in Canon, after all, 5+ is Military, though with the advent of War, that has shifted to 7+) for a very long time, and he worked just fine (in fact, he is still in play, though I have finally started to augment myself up such that my Logic has increased a bit)... I routinely rolled 7-11 Dice (Dependant upon Skill, EW was my highest) with him before the augments, and now I am rolling 10-14 Dice for Hacking) and 15 Dice (for Programming)... With that pool, I am one of the best in the city I run in... Seems emminently reasonable to me. I do not need to have well over 20 Dice for such endeavors.

Why must a hacker have a Logic of 6-7 just to compete? That makes absolutely no sense. If you are saying that a Hacker needs to have a Logic 6-7 to be the best in the World, I would agree, but PROFESSIONAL Hackers in the game are throwing 6-8 Dice (Skill 3, Logic 3, Program 3 and a Specialty, at least at my table), and the world has not ended in fire and pain. If you want to be a Fastjack while using the optional Rules, you likely have augments to your Logic, A VERY HIGH Program Rating (fortunately we now have rules for such things), and a Skill that is about as high as you can get it, as well as having several (to many) Supplementary Skills both Active and Knowledge.

Maybe the big issue is not really the requirements of Logic, but that the Program caps hits? After all, not every Hacker in the world uses Rating 6+ Programs, so when the PC's have access to such things, then their Dice Pools inflate over what is commonly available in the Mainstream (using the normal rules). At that point, an arms race ensues, which the Corps and the Military will always win... After all, they can devote far more resources to just outperform the competition if they so desire.

Interesting discussion though...

As I said, your experiences and your tables are the furthest thing from typical, Tymeaus. Programs of 4 simply isn't normal for a specialist hacker, and neither is a DP of 7. Increasing Logic is also harder than almost anything else, and increasing attributes in general is harder than increasing skills or programs. Again, if it works for *you and your table*, enjoy. There are very real repercussions of a 'simple' change from Programs to Logic, though, and they are large and wide-reaching.

Since it is a RAW Optional Rule, I see no problems... I see no "Very Real" repercussions, and I disagree that any such change would have "large and wide reaching" consequences.

Remember, the premise of the game is that 14 Dice is pretty exceptional (Attributes/Skill of 6's and a Specialty). Yes, your DP's can climb to ludicrous levels, but the Game world does not make that assumption that it will be the norm, in my opinion. I know that there is a very large contingent of individuals here on Dumpshock that will disagree, but the Sample Character Archtypes (As well as every NPC Template in any of the books) are well designed, if you buy into that premise (what I would call the default setting). However, when you throw the Fluff out the window, and assume that everyone will load to the gills with circumstantial bonuses and boosts, then yes, your average pool of 6-8 is very low... at that point, your average begins to approach 16-20 Dice. There are several ways to limit that creep, but they are apparently not all that popular here on Dumpshock, where the vast majority want the largest DP they can get.

Fact is, if you look at the NPC's, you will RARELY see a DP above 15, and you will never (as far as I could find anyways) see one above 20, with the vast majority somewhere around 12 Dice (For the primary Schtick)... and when you look at it that way, using Logic for Hackers, instead of Program Rating, has a very minimal effect on the game at all. Which is why it is an Optional Rule in my opinion.

You could always use the other optional rule instead, and cap Successes at Logic, but that is a harsher option (because Script Kiddies suffer more, of course), though it would also work.

Besides, it is not really all that hard to raise Logic... Pretty Easy in fact, as a Human could actually get to a nine if he wanted. Intuition and Willpower are the difficult ones in my opinion.

Like I said, your table, atypical. No one thinks the sample characters are reasonable, and I don't use the NPCs. In any case, that's a separate issue from the logical consequences I've presented.

I do not see any logical consequences though...

Different Styles I guess...

Now, there is room for personal preference between the positions that 'meat is better' or 'machine is better'. It's a thematic difference: some people (/settings/books/etc.) prefer the idea that, at some level, a real meat brain can always win. Others prefer the 'non-anthropic' position that humans (biologicals) simply are inferior.

Ironically, while you seem to espouse the latter, the Logic-based optional rule is an argument for the former. If meat brains are so inferior, Logic doesn't matter (that's the SR4 RAW reasoning, AFAIK). It's only if you think that people can use their Logic fast enough to matter (equal to or faster than machines) that it makes sense to roll Logic.

I like the integration of Logic because a Metahuman MUST pass all his information through his own perceptions (Mind). In Shadowrun, My opnion is that Machine is better, yes, but a Human can never be machine... A Hacker (or Technomancer) has the ability to ALMOST become that machine, but their limits will still be meat based at their core, thus the Logic Interface.

No worries though...

Aha, but even though it's easy to get programs up to 6, it's actually easier to get Logic greater than 6, than it should be to get programs *above* 6. Crazy rules, hehe. I'm just saying: consequences. If you're Logic-based, you can effectively get 7, 8, 9 'in everything', compared to program-based.

I haven't examined the possibility of using multiple attributes (just like a Technomancer). Also, doesn't Logic-basing drastically alter how Technomancers work?

Technos barely function as-is (unless you realize that there's only 6 programs Complex Forms you actually need..............and only one of those needs to be breaking theoretical limits*).

*Buy Stealth to max-rating allowed by Resonance. Thread it to a minimum of 8. Done, as you're now unnoticeable in every sense of the word and it doesn't matter how many dice you have to anything else.

Wow, that's a great character. I can tell you put a lot of effort into it, and kudos for using backstory to get a mechanical advantage!

Not if they use Logic instead of Complex Forms. Logic-basing essentially removes CFs from the game (except for forcing you to ignore hits you otherwise earned), right? So Threading does nothing. Not that I care too much about Technomancers, just asking.

Ok, hear me out for a second, I had an idea while reading this thread for a use of logic that doesn't do away with the
Skill + Program
for the
Skill + Attribute

What is the most annoying thing any character when it comes to programs? I would say it is the amount of time it takes to use Software + Logic to code anything. So, what if higher Logic and Intuition had some impact on making the time interval shorter than a month to 6 months? I am not entirely sure just by how much would seem balanced, but it certainly could make a difference to be able to make programs quicker than a script kiddy or corporate prog user, correct?

Also, the Synergy Knowledge stuff is awesome, I had similar thoughts in regards to how knowledge skills could have some mechanical impact, its treating it like a teamwork test, correct?

And as far as this goes:


Er, what about AR gloves and a AR interface, isn't that a bit like strapping a monitor in front of your eyeballs and a keyboard/mouse to your finger tips? Couldn't that be interpreted as you doing more of a Skill + Attribute situation than a Skill + Program situation?

1) There are already ways to reduce the interval to about 3 weeks.
2) Even at intervals of "weeks" you're still looking at longer times to code-it-yourself than to buy it.

Not to mention, that at chargen you can't have self-coded programs (so you don't get a discount).



Just as a note: I was typing out the base-rules techno. With logic thrown in and CF limiting hits, you really do just give the finger to technos even more ("I'm sorry, you're rating 1 Edit CF limits you to one hit...").

I'm pretty sure AR of any kind (gloves, keyboard, whatever) is still using programs on your commlink. The only general 'computers' of any kind besides commlinks are nexi and home nodes, and they all run the same programs.

As for programming, it's fully Logic-based already. Presumably, your high Logic means more hits and, therefore, fewer intervals.

Knowledge skills don't do anything mechanical in SR4. It's a huge change to add that back in (like SR3), and basically means that everyone will take ranks in Shadowrunning, Weak Spots, and Clever Plans.