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> What can I do with a hacked cyberarm
Seth
post Dec 15 2010, 02:21 PM
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If I managed to hack into the cyberlimbs of the maniac charging me with a braun cordless chainsword in one hand and ares crusader in the other what can I do?

  • Can I treat the cyberlimb as a drone (like a vehicle mechanical arm) and shot the maniac or his friends?
  • Can I "turn the arm off"
  • Can I drop the weapons, reach for the maniacs throat and squeeze?


On a similar vein can I put an agent or sprite into the cyberlimb complete with autosofts?

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jakephillips
post Dec 15 2010, 02:52 PM
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If the cyberlimb is not connected by DNI with the wireless access turned off they are crazy to start with. But if for some reason they have it slaved to their comms because they have a built in smartlink or scanner they need contact with then I would treat it a devise and use the command program to use the limb. It is not a drone so I do not think you can run it with autosofts. But sprites could command it to take actions like turn off, choke its owner and such.
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Makki
post Dec 15 2010, 02:58 PM
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Hit him in the face!
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Eratosthenes
post Dec 15 2010, 03:54 PM
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I would think the wireless signals would be solely for diagnostics, and/or any internal gadgetry. So hitting the owner in the face with it might be right out, but shutting it down would be definitely in.

Then again, perhaps the diagnostics would include movement tests (flexing, extending, etc.).
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Seth
post Dec 15 2010, 04:05 PM
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I am a little hazy about how cyberlimbs work, but I had always assumed that they operate by the same tech that makes VR and AR possible. Effectively the owned of the arm has "jumped" into their own body. If thats the case presumably someone else could jump in.

As I say I am not sure about this...as a GM though it would be cool to have a players arm be hacked (as suggested in Unwired), but I would be unsure how many die to roll. I am thinking something like: the arms agility + attack autosoft / skill wire/ hackers personal skill. The "in melee combat modifier" is almost certain to be relevant if a projectile weapon was held.
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Ascalaphus
post Dec 15 2010, 04:08 PM
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Computer security in SR is a sad joke. No cyberarm meant for combat use should have wireless access. It's an unnecessary risk.

That said, suppose you do get access, you can do pretty much anything the arm can do. SR also doesn't really compartmentalize control, so if you control the arm, you control the arm. If it's holding a gun, you can put it to the schmuck's head. You can flail it about wildly to bring him off-balance. You can just shut it down.
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J. Packer
post Dec 15 2010, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 15 2010, 09:08 AM) *
Computer security in SR is a sad joke.

Quoted for truth.

You never leave a wireless connection open to your ware when you're in combat. That's what direct neural interfaces and touchlink are for.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Dec 15 2010, 04:25 PM
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A touchlink is there so you can suffer terrible torture with ease – like the sensation of having your skin stripped away by ants.

What you mean is a Skinlink, and no, it should not have that either. Cyberware can be internally connected – and it should, to the single node that has wifi and skinlink.
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yesferatu
post Dec 15 2010, 04:48 PM
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I'm still not sure about this either.
What can a cyber limb actually do? Diagnostics? Reboot? Shut Down?
It's not like it's a completely separate drone on your arm.
You couldn't detach it and throw it at somebody.

The arm is controlled by the owner's meat brain, not a pilot program or a command program.
Could you somehow get into someone's skillwires and make them forget math?

There is an example in the core about hacking a gun in which they eject a clip, which is fine.
One of the things a gun can do is eject clips.

Am I wrong in thinking that diagnostics would be the only thing a cyber arm could actually do?
How would a reboot or a shut down even work?

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klinktastic
post Dec 15 2010, 04:55 PM
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Idk, probably a full combat turn to power down, then another full combat turn to reboot?

Depending on how you hacked it, you might be able to detact a modular limb. I'm sure you could drop whatever's in the hand of the cyberlimb.
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Seth
post Dec 15 2010, 05:15 PM
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I am still struggling with the idea that the hacker cannot do everything that the main user can do. Basically the cyber arm has a set of motors and a set of sensors. There is a computer that reads the sensors and controls the motors. This computer is linked to the wireless system (if nothing else for running diagnostics). However if it can control the motors and read the sensors...then it can control the motors and read the sensors...i.e. do everything that the main user can do. I suspect I am bringing real life into this (I programmed robot control systems as a job for 14 years).



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Rotbart van Dain...
post Dec 15 2010, 05:20 PM
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The DNI is processed by a computer, so yes, with the Command software, you can control a cyberarm.

The problem is that you need some sensor of actually "seeing" what happens do to so for any complicated action – otherwise, you are pretty limited.
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klinktastic
post Dec 15 2010, 05:27 PM
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Yeah, the problem is that while hacking, you can only issue/spoof one command at a time. So a multi-faceted and complex machine would be function as the primary user wanted to, with the exception of 1 very minor action per IP. So you could have to issue multiple commands per IP in order to control the should, biceps, and hand to try and choke the owner. But you could maybe effect the hand momentarily, forcing them to drop their gun.
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Makki
post Dec 15 2010, 05:28 PM
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for sure one can redline the arm
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klinktastic
post Dec 15 2010, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (Makki @ Dec 15 2010, 11:28 AM) *
for sure one can redline the arm



If the hacker has admin access perhaps.
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klinktastic
post Dec 15 2010, 05:34 PM
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It would be funny to sniffer/scan a partially borged out NPC and discover a cranial bomb. That would be fun to hack....
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Dec 15 2010, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE (klinktastic @ Dec 15 2010, 06:27 PM) *
Yeah, the problem is that while hacking, you can only issue/spoof one command at a time.

The Command Program is not used to Issue/Spoof Commands – there is in no extra software needed, at all.

The Command Program allows you to "drive" a vehicle/drone/device with a virtual dashboard and controls.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 15 2010, 05:38 PM
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The book already says that external 'ware generally has the wireless off.

But that's not really the point: *if* you can gain access to a cyberlimb, you can make it turn off or reboot. You can't make any attack actions, because that's just unreasonable. I *know* Unwired suggests that you can, but it's just too crazy; you'd need LOS and a huge (-8, -10?) DP penalty for trying to use someone else's arm on someone else's body to attack from a completely foreign perspective. Anyway, see Unwired p102.

--
Spoof Command uses Spoof (the program).
Issue Command is a Simple Action, which is what I understood klinktastic to be referring to (correctly).
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oinopion
post Dec 15 2010, 06:30 PM
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I think it should be treated as jumped-in-drone: no control possible, DNI trumps everything.
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Draco18s
post Dec 15 2010, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 15 2010, 11:08 AM) *
Computer security in SR is a sad joke.


Given that the OP managed to hack into a cyberarm while the owner of said arm was barreling down on him with a chainsaw....

Yes. Computer security is a joke and hacking cyberlimbs in this manner should result in a "No." from the GM. There's no reason, ever, that a hacker should be able to stop a cyber-monkey that quickly.

It is of my opinion that "hacking active combatants" is one of the least effective things you can do. I mean, hell, it takes you an IP to scan for wireless nodes, plus one more to spoof a single command. Or you can go all out and waste 4 IPs to have complete control (I don't know about you, but taking 4 IPs worth of bullets to stop those bullets from continuing doesn't sound like a good trade).
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 15 2010, 06:39 PM
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That's true: if you're going to allow this, then you have to also include the limitations and speed bumps. It's like complaining combat spells are overpowered if you houseruled that drain doesn't exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Mardrax
post Dec 15 2010, 06:41 PM
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Actually, the system "memorising" the instructions to a cyberarm's motor controls in subsets of 'scratch nose' would make sense for both data compression and movement fluidity.
I wouldn't find saying a cyberlimb's system could have some sort of 'body awareness' too much of a long shot.

The long shot, in my book, would be that motor control system being accesible from any kind of wireless link.
It shouldn't be slaved to a comlink, as it needs no electronic input (assuming normal nerve potential is used to control it, as opposed to DNI's general application to the central nervous system, which would make most sense, it being the 'natural way' to control a limb) for its motor functions to function. If it is wirelessly accesible for some reason, DNI should trump it indeed.

I'd say you could access peripherals that work outside of a normal limb's motor control, through the Command program. As suggested, redlining should be one of those. Accessing diagnostic data should be a given. Again though, wireless accessibility should be none in most situations, or Signal 0 when it isn't.
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klinktastic
post Dec 15 2010, 06:51 PM
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I believe in Unwired, p. 90 there is a reference to turning off cyberarms in the Jackpoint. The response is "Maybe, but probably not." Also, I think there's another part of the book that references hacking cybereyes, but allowing you to turn them off, or implant false imagines of them committing crimes (which you an later leak and get the 5.0 on them for).
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 15 2010, 06:55 PM
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As I mentioned: Unwired, p102.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Dec 15 2010, 06:58 PM
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Of course, digital recordings do not constitute evidence anymore in Shadowrun, for the very reason.
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