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Seth
If I managed to hack into the cyberlimbs of the maniac charging me with a braun cordless chainsword in one hand and ares crusader in the other what can I do?

  • Can I treat the cyberlimb as a drone (like a vehicle mechanical arm) and shot the maniac or his friends?
  • Can I "turn the arm off"
  • Can I drop the weapons, reach for the maniacs throat and squeeze?


On a similar vein can I put an agent or sprite into the cyberlimb complete with autosofts?

jakephillips
If the cyberlimb is not connected by DNI with the wireless access turned off they are crazy to start with. But if for some reason they have it slaved to their comms because they have a built in smartlink or scanner they need contact with then I would treat it a devise and use the command program to use the limb. It is not a drone so I do not think you can run it with autosofts. But sprites could command it to take actions like turn off, choke its owner and such.
Makki
Hit him in the face!
Eratosthenes
I would think the wireless signals would be solely for diagnostics, and/or any internal gadgetry. So hitting the owner in the face with it might be right out, but shutting it down would be definitely in.

Then again, perhaps the diagnostics would include movement tests (flexing, extending, etc.).
Seth
I am a little hazy about how cyberlimbs work, but I had always assumed that they operate by the same tech that makes VR and AR possible. Effectively the owned of the arm has "jumped" into their own body. If thats the case presumably someone else could jump in.

As I say I am not sure about this...as a GM though it would be cool to have a players arm be hacked (as suggested in Unwired), but I would be unsure how many die to roll. I am thinking something like: the arms agility + attack autosoft / skill wire/ hackers personal skill. The "in melee combat modifier" is almost certain to be relevant if a projectile weapon was held.
Ascalaphus
Computer security in SR is a sad joke. No cyberarm meant for combat use should have wireless access. It's an unnecessary risk.

That said, suppose you do get access, you can do pretty much anything the arm can do. SR also doesn't really compartmentalize control, so if you control the arm, you control the arm. If it's holding a gun, you can put it to the schmuck's head. You can flail it about wildly to bring him off-balance. You can just shut it down.
J. Packer
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 15 2010, 09:08 AM) *
Computer security in SR is a sad joke.

Quoted for truth.

You never leave a wireless connection open to your ware when you're in combat. That's what direct neural interfaces and touchlink are for.
Rotbart van Dainig
A touchlink is there so you can suffer terrible torture with ease like the sensation of having your skin stripped away by ants.

What you mean is a Skinlink, and no, it should not have that either. Cyberware can be internally connected and it should, to the single node that has wifi and skinlink.
yesferatu
I'm still not sure about this either.
What can a cyber limb actually do? Diagnostics? Reboot? Shut Down?
It's not like it's a completely separate drone on your arm.
You couldn't detach it and throw it at somebody.

The arm is controlled by the owner's meat brain, not a pilot program or a command program.
Could you somehow get into someone's skillwires and make them forget math?

There is an example in the core about hacking a gun in which they eject a clip, which is fine.
One of the things a gun can do is eject clips.

Am I wrong in thinking that diagnostics would be the only thing a cyber arm could actually do?
How would a reboot or a shut down even work?

klinktastic
Idk, probably a full combat turn to power down, then another full combat turn to reboot?

Depending on how you hacked it, you might be able to detact a modular limb. I'm sure you could drop whatever's in the hand of the cyberlimb.
Seth
I am still struggling with the idea that the hacker cannot do everything that the main user can do. Basically the cyber arm has a set of motors and a set of sensors. There is a computer that reads the sensors and controls the motors. This computer is linked to the wireless system (if nothing else for running diagnostics). However if it can control the motors and read the sensors...then it can control the motors and read the sensors...i.e. do everything that the main user can do. I suspect I am bringing real life into this (I programmed robot control systems as a job for 14 years).



Rotbart van Dainig
The DNI is processed by a computer, so yes, with the Command software, you can control a cyberarm.

The problem is that you need some sensor of actually "seeing" what happens do to so for any complicated action – otherwise, you are pretty limited.
klinktastic
Yeah, the problem is that while hacking, you can only issue/spoof one command at a time. So a multi-faceted and complex machine would be function as the primary user wanted to, with the exception of 1 very minor action per IP. So you could have to issue multiple commands per IP in order to control the should, biceps, and hand to try and choke the owner. But you could maybe effect the hand momentarily, forcing them to drop their gun.
Makki
for sure one can redline the arm
klinktastic
QUOTE (Makki @ Dec 15 2010, 11:28 AM) *
for sure one can redline the arm



If the hacker has admin access perhaps.
klinktastic
It would be funny to sniffer/scan a partially borged out NPC and discover a cranial bomb. That would be fun to hack....
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (klinktastic @ Dec 15 2010, 06:27 PM) *
Yeah, the problem is that while hacking, you can only issue/spoof one command at a time.

The Command Program is not used to Issue/Spoof Commands there is in no extra software needed, at all.

The Command Program allows you to "drive" a vehicle/drone/device with a virtual dashboard and controls.
Yerameyahu
The book already says that external 'ware generally has the wireless off.

But that's not really the point: *if* you can gain access to a cyberlimb, you can make it turn off or reboot. You can't make any attack actions, because that's just unreasonable. I *know* Unwired suggests that you can, but it's just too crazy; you'd need LOS and a huge (-8, -10?) DP penalty for trying to use someone else's arm on someone else's body to attack from a completely foreign perspective. Anyway, see Unwired p102.

--
Spoof Command uses Spoof (the program).
Issue Command is a Simple Action, which is what I understood klinktastic to be referring to (correctly).
oinopion
I think it should be treated as jumped-in-drone: no control possible, DNI trumps everything.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 15 2010, 11:08 AM) *
Computer security in SR is a sad joke.


Given that the OP managed to hack into a cyberarm while the owner of said arm was barreling down on him with a chainsaw....

Yes. Computer security is a joke and hacking cyberlimbs in this manner should result in a "No." from the GM. There's no reason, ever, that a hacker should be able to stop a cyber-monkey that quickly.

It is of my opinion that "hacking active combatants" is one of the least effective things you can do. I mean, hell, it takes you an IP to scan for wireless nodes, plus one more to spoof a single command. Or you can go all out and waste 4 IPs to have complete control (I don't know about you, but taking 4 IPs worth of bullets to stop those bullets from continuing doesn't sound like a good trade).
Yerameyahu
That's true: if you're going to allow this, then you have to also include the limitations and speed bumps. It's like complaining combat spells are overpowered if you houseruled that drain doesn't exist. smile.gif
Mardrax
Actually, the system "memorising" the instructions to a cyberarm's motor controls in subsets of 'scratch nose' would make sense for both data compression and movement fluidity.
I wouldn't find saying a cyberlimb's system could have some sort of 'body awareness' too much of a long shot.

The long shot, in my book, would be that motor control system being accesible from any kind of wireless link.
It shouldn't be slaved to a comlink, as it needs no electronic input (assuming normal nerve potential is used to control it, as opposed to DNI's general application to the central nervous system, which would make most sense, it being the 'natural way' to control a limb) for its motor functions to function. If it is wirelessly accesible for some reason, DNI should trump it indeed.

I'd say you could access peripherals that work outside of a normal limb's motor control, through the Command program. As suggested, redlining should be one of those. Accessing diagnostic data should be a given. Again though, wireless accessibility should be none in most situations, or Signal 0 when it isn't.
klinktastic
I believe in Unwired, p. 90 there is a reference to turning off cyberarms in the Jackpoint. The response is "Maybe, but probably not." Also, I think there's another part of the book that references hacking cybereyes, but allowing you to turn them off, or implant false imagines of them committing crimes (which you an later leak and get the 5.0 on them for).
Yerameyahu
As I mentioned: Unwired, p102.
Rotbart van Dainig
Of course, digital recordings do not constitute evidence anymore in Shadowrun, for the very reason.
Ascalaphus
This whole combat hacking was poorly conceived. Yes, it happens in Ghost in the Shell. But in GitS, people have cyberbrains. And a reason for letting them online, despite the obvious risks.

It's like someone thought "well, hackers in SR should be able to do that too" without exploring why cyberbrains in GitS are online, and what kind of threat level hacking does or doesn't pose to make it sane to do so.
klinktastic
I tend to agree. Cyberware hacking should net you the ability to impose maybe some negative modifiers, like a -2 to dice pools while hacked. The problem is, that with either DNI or slaved 'wares, you'll have to 1. hack a high firewall commlink, decrypt programs, establish account access, then "send commands" to the cyberware in question. Now, in VR, that's still going to take quite a few turns. Most likely, you'll be scanned, analyzed, and detected and be forced to waste IPs in cybercombat. It's just not really practical to do in a combat situation.
Mardrax
Gives the hacker who forgot he might be needing a gun something to do though.
And I can definitely see the use in, say, plundering the database of a cybereye's recording unit, or spamming up its Imagelink.
klinktastic
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Dec 15 2010, 01:18 PM) *
Gives the hacker who forgot he might be needing a gun something to do though.
And I can definitely see the use in, say, plundering the database of a cybereye's recording unit, or spamming up its Imagelink.


At that point, bring a drone, hack a drone, or hack a vehicle. Be much cooler to hack a parked vehicle and ram it into the baddies.
Yerameyahu
I think it should be an option, as long as you follow all the existing hurdles and drawbacks, including (again) the fact that external 'ware won't have wireless. I just don't think the rules support exists for making attacks at all (after all, legit users can't command cyberware that way). The other examples on Unwired p102 are fine.
CanRay
Upload the command program: "LarryCurlyMoeShemp V3.0".
Seth
Well this was a fun thread...I thought the answer would be obvious.

I think we all agree that it will be very hard or impossible to do in a combat situation. It is much more likely to be done I think as trojan: when this happens redline yourself. I am tempted think that actually you have as much control as you do over a drone: at the end of the day all a cyber arm is a set of motors and a set of sensors and thats all a drone is. I fully agree it will be fun trying to shoot something (many many minuses) but it should be fairly easy to reach for the throat and squeeze: you cannot easily move your neck away from your own shoulder, so the relative movements when you are throwing yourself around are irrelevant.

As far as the external ware not having wireless, I think thats what the technomancer's echo "touch link" or something is for. Mind you if the technomancer can subdue the cyborg, they are a pretty buff technomancer.

Overall as an offensive activity I think I am against it: I like the idea that there is a point in cyberware, and that it should be powerful. Otherwise we would just be playing magicrun.
Yerameyahu
As a legit cyberlimb 'wearer', you have precisely zero ability to control it as a drone. Why should an external hacker have infinitely more? smile.gif I still disagree that you should be able to make melee attacks, especially without the normal (better than ranged) defense pool. After all, it's aiming, fine control, etc. just as much as anything. Attacks in SR4 are attacks. If you allow anything like that, you have to let agents/Pilots do it, and then everyone with cyberware gets 12 IPs. Bleh.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Seth @ Dec 15 2010, 04:21 PM) *
I think thats what the technomancer's echo "touch link" or something is for.


Echo != Everyone.

"A hacker" can't use a technomancer echo to do things that are normally impossible, possible.

Technos hacking a dude's cyber after a touch? Sure, that's clever (at which point the GM says: "sure you can strangle him" or "no, you can't shoot his buddies"). Saying that this allows anyone anywhere to do the same thing: not valid.
Seth
QUOTE
"A hacker" can't use a technomancer echo to do things that are normally impossible, possible.


QUOTE
Skinlink
A technomancer with this echo gains the ability to use his skin as connection to other devices, similar to an integral skinlink (p. 318, SR4). The technomancer can use this link to hack any device he touches, even if wireless signals are jammed. Note that the device does not need to have skinlink adaptation. Two technomancers with this echo may mentally communicate with each other simply by touching.


I am not an expert on technomancers, and haven't played one with this ability. It read to me as though it would work, although I assumed you would have to subdue the cyborg with the chainsword and machine pistol first...

Edit: I think you would have to be in skin contact for the duration of the hack anyway...hence the need to subdue. This would probably work though if the cyborg was holding you with the cyberarm
Yerameyahu
No, that's basically what the skinlink echo is for. Draco18s meant that Technomancers are super-rare.
Seth
QUOTE
As a legit cyberlimb 'wearer', you have precisely zero ability to control it as a drone. Why should an external hacker have infinitely more? I still disagree that you should be able to make melee attacks, especially without the normal (better than ranged) defense pool. After all, it's aiming, fine control, etc. just as much as anything. Attacks in SR4 are attacks. If you allow anything like that, you have to let agents/Pilots do it, and then everyone with cyberware gets 12 IPs. Bleh.


Your argument in favour of game balance is irrefutable.
Yerameyahu
That said, these abilities should exist. The legit owner should be able to control the limb, etc. It's just that the rules don't exist. smile.gif
Seth
Well if I am GMing its easy: if they manage to plant a trojan assassin effect in the cyberware it will probably work (the story now is in getting the trojan in place), and if I want to get the players cyber hand to misbehave it can do. I don't think my players will try the 4 cyber arms plan, and if they do I will invite them to watch Spiderman 2, and see how well it worked for Dr Octopus....

Wait that gets me thinking...a backpack with four drone arms...each with a sub machine gun
Yerameyahu
Hah, that's been done, sadly. Search for it. frown.gif
Seth
QUOTE
Hah, that's been done, sadly. Search for it

lol

Its no worse really than 4 hover drones accompanying you, and probably a lot less bad than a gyro mounted panther assault cannon. Very few of these ideas can be used outside of a war scenario.

I'm currently running the Denver missions, and the checkpoints make getting even pistols though really challenging, which is much more the kind of game I am happy with. The main source of powerful firearms is from the fallen bodies of enemies.
oinopion
I'm still not sure why hacking cyberarm is allowed. You use it as your body, you feel it as your body and you control it as your body -- same as jumped-in drone. And you can't hack jumped-in drone, can you?
Seth
QUOTE
I'm still not sure why hacking cyberarm is allowed. You use it as your body, you feel it as your body and you control it as your body -- same as jumped-in drone. And you can't hack jumped-in drone, can you?


See page 102 of Unwired: "Hacking cyberware". One of the given examples is "Seizing control of a cyberarm and using it to attack others, or even the cyberlimbed character."
Note that a cyberarm needs to be computerised, but it is probably not wireless...and even if it is it's probably signal 0, so it will be very hard to physically get in a position to hack


On a separate note "you can't hack jumped-in drone, can you?"...huh? you can't? Tell me more!
Stahlseele
Take control of Arm.
Grab owners Genitals.
Squeze.
Seth
QUOTE
Take control of Arm.
Grab owners Genitals.
Squeze.


Twisted...shudders...I was just going to go for the throat
CeeJay
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 16 2010, 11:02 AM) *
Take control of Arm.
Grab owners Genitals.
Redline Strength attribute of cyberarm
Squeze.

There, fixed that for you smile.gif

-CJ
oinopion
QUOTE (Seth @ Dec 16 2010, 10:52 AM) *
On a separate note "you can't hack jumped-in drone, can you?"...huh? you can't? Tell me more!

Uhm... I think someone hacked my brain into believing something quite untrue. Just ignore my post.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Seth @ Dec 16 2010, 11:20 AM) *
Twisted...shudders...I was just going to go for the throat

*bows* ^^
QUOTE (CeeJay @ Dec 16 2010, 11:22 AM) *
There, fixed that for you smile.gif

-CJ

Nah, victim would black out from redlining damage . .
Ascalaphus
Piloting your own cyberlimbs.. I hadn't thought of that, but it's an intrigueing thought. It'd be bad for game balance to allow too many (independent) IPs with pilot programs though. Maybe just keeping the body physically balanced mandates that the body parts work together instead of independently?

Also, for full effect you'd need to replace all your limbs and torso with cyber. The other way to become a cyborg, but with interesting differences;
* You might keep more Essence, so you can still get implants like a Simsense Booster and attach a Simsense Accelerator for 5IPs
* You're still considered a person, not an object for purposes of magic resistance. Could be good or bad.
* Much, much higher possible attributes than a drone.
* Much, much higher possible armor than a drone.
* You don't ignore Stun damage.
* Double dip damage; anything your body fails to soak you get as biofeedback

That last one cuts down on the attractiveness I suppose. It'd be more interesting to borgify a "friend" and pilot remotely.
MortVent
double click, remove dick (one way or another)

to quote one of my TMs.

But up to the GM to determine, with discussion since there is a lot of grey area in what you can do by the core rules (far too many situations for RAW to cover)
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