I'm missing something about karmagen, and critique my mage Options

[yoippari]

First off, my goal was simply to make a summoner. Maybe not even take a casting skill other than counterspell. Then I expanded the idea to a rigger denial drone possession specialist. Then I actually read up on hear ideas and ended up making a fairly generalized voodoo tradition mage. And finally I switched it over to karmagen in the excel sheet I'm using (sr4cg_dk_1m.xls) or whatever the file is. So any critique would be appreciated given the characters lack of cohesive concept. I also think I'm missing something because using karmagen I have a lot of high attributes, a lot of skills and a lot of money.

I'll update this with full sheet once I get home but basically with a dwarf I have tributes mostly in the 4s with a couple of 5s. 230k nuyen, and 10 or so skills of about rating 3. Does this sound right?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

First off, my goal was simply to make a summoner. Maybe not even take a casting skill other than counterspell. Then I expanded the idea to a rigger denial drone possession specialist. Then I actually read up on hear ideas and ended up making a fairly generalized voodoo tradition mage. And finally I switched it over to karmagen in the excel sheet I'm using (sr4cg_dk_1m.xls) or whatever the file is. So any critique would be appreciated given the characters lack of cohesive concept. I also think I'm missing something because using karmagen I have a lot of high attributes, a lot of skills and a lot of money.

I'll update this with full sheet once I get home but basically with a dwarf I have tributes mostly in the 4s with a couple of 5s. 230k nuyen, and 10 or so skills of about rating 3. Does this sound right?

Sounds about right for Karmagen...

[mmmkay]

I don't have that much experience and even without a quick mathematical check I'm betting that you're using a 3x multiplier for attributes rather than a 5x multiplier. I could be wrong and I did no math to check you, but all 4's and a few 5's in attributes seemed like a huge tip-off that something was wrong.

[yoippari]

That is with the x3 for attributes which is according to the sheet RAW.

I am going to pin down the enemies quality and replace the sensitive neural structure but I am wanting to build this a bit more rounded character if karmagen is going to make him that much "stronger", so since hacking is mostly skill+money (I haven't read unwired much so probably missing some things in that field) I might have a side of hacking. Probably pull in some skills that usually aren't used very often or some gear that might be useful but also isn't bought very often.

Here is a snapshot of what I have.

Dwarf
ATTRIBUTES Walk/Run 8 20
Body: 5 Charisma: 5 EDGE: 4
Agility: 4 Intuition: 4 Phys Init 7
Reaction: 3 Logic: 3 Passes 1
Strength: 4 Willpower: 6 Magic: 5

Counterspelling 4
Spellcasting 4
Summoning 5
Clubs 3
Firearms (Group) 3
Perception 2
Arcana 2
Enchanting 2
Binding 4
Survival 1
Pilot Ground Craft 2
Pilot Water Craft 1
Negotiation 2
Assensing 2
Astral Combat 3
Diving 2

QUALITIES
Thermographic Vision
Resistance to Pathogens (2)

Restricted Gear 10 (Power Focus)
Mentor Spirit 10 (Wise Warrior)
Sensitive Neural Structure -10
Enemy (3) -30
Day Job (1000¥/10hrs) -10
Prejudiced (Common, Biased) -20 (Non Vory crime groups/gangs)

[Yerameyahu]

It was RAW, until it was fixed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Faraday]

It was RAW, until it was fixed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thankfully.

[yoippari]

So was it fixed anywhere that is findable or is anyone going to fill me in.

[Glyph]

The newer printings supposedly have it, but there has not been an official errata published for Runner's Companion yet.

The changes are fairly simple. Metatypes pay their BP cost in karma (elf costs 30 karma, etc.), and Attributes use the x 5 multiplier. Karmagen still comes out ahead of build points most of the time, but it is a lot closer, power-wise.

[yoippari]

changes make sense. I'll put those in and see what happens.

[Cthulhudreams]

Thankfully.

Where's the source for where it has been fixed? Like.. can you link me to something?

[Mäx]

Where's the source for where it has been fixed? Like.. can you link me to something?

Sadly a bunch of different forums post stating how karmagen works in the german book and few more stating that the newst english printing has the same exact changes is all there is on the net about this as we haven't gotten an errata for RC and considering the other erratas we're missing i wouldn't get my hopes up on getting one any time in the next few years (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[Faraday]

You could always use this.

[Mäx]

You could always use this.

he allready is.

To OP just use the sheets German RAW preset, it has the correct karmagen settings IRC.

[Cthulhudreams]

Sadly a bunch of different forums post stating how karmagen works in the german book and few more stating that the newst english printing has the same exact changes is all there is on the net about this as we haven't gotten an errata for RC and considering the other erratas we're missing i wouldn't get my hopes up on getting one any time in the next few years (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

That is amazingly stupid.

[Yerameyahu]

It helps to adopt a warts-and-all attitude. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

Meh, last game I ran I used BCP gen and advancement.

[Seth]

I am not a big fan of Karma-gen: I find it far more munchkin causing that the BP approach (which surprised me).

I like designing characters...when I am on a train, or have nothing better to do, so I design quite a lot. Every character I make in Karmagen is much more powerful and less balanced that the ones that I make in BP generation. Most of my 400 BP characters I can create for around 600 karma. (I am using the race cost karma = bp, and attributes cost *5)

I also find that when helping other people make characters, explaining karma-gen is harder than the bp system, and far more mistakes are made in character design.

[Makki]

Most of my 400 BP characters I can create for around 600 karma. (I am using the race cost karma = bp, and attributes cost *5)

that can happen. yet some dice pools of BP-Chars will be very high, while karmagen-chars will have a lot more low dice pools. 10-15 skills at lvl1 is more realistic than unarmed 6 and nothing else ^^

I also find that when helping other people make characters, explaining karma-gen is harder than the bp system, and far more mistakes are made in character design.

that's right

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I am not a big fan of Karma-gen: I find it far more munchkin causing that the BP approach (which surprised me).

Our table considers Metatypes costing twice the BP in karma (akin to qualities' cost). Doesn't make characters more broke, but it sure avoids the kind of characters you have with BP with skills 5 or 6 and skill groups 4 and any other skill (or specialization) being bought later with karma because is cheaper.

[Seth]

Just another observation.

When I want to run Shadowrun at a convention or with friends that haven't played it before, a 400 or 750 pt system is extremely heavy weight. Given that these games are likely going to last for 2 or 3 sessions, I use the priority system (although I am a recent convert of PACKS). The priority system is easy to understand, easy to generate, still has plenty of choices so that people can make the character they want, and so far hasn't produced any "broken" or "munchkin" characters.

I am sure it is possible to break it, but it seems perfectly usable to me.

[Makki]

but it seems perfectly usable to me.

no doubt here.
I haven't tried to break it yet, because nobody ever uses it in the long run.

[ShadowWalker]

I've seen several people mention PACKS and I'm now wondering what is it? Where can I find information on it?

[Seth]

My search-fu was weak. But eventually

[ShadowWalker]

Thanks, for some reason I could not find it when I did some searching myself.

[Glyph]

400 Karma or 750 karma are only "heavyweight" in the sense that they are the default power level - and this is a game of kung-fu adepts, cybernetic killing machines, mages channeling awesome power, and similar types, who do dirty, very dangerous jobs as their regular vocation. Typical shadowrunners are not first-level characters. Lower-end, starting-out runners can be made with 320 build points or 600 karma, although I would also recommend a few other limitations (such as lower starting skill/resource caps) if you go that route.


I have never liked the priority system in SR4 (I found it elegant and easy to use in SR3, even if I preferred the flexibility and scalability of the point system). It is clunky, inflexible, and does not offer the same ease of use for inexperienced players that the SR3 version did. You can make decent characters with it (there is a thread that does many archetypes in priority system versions, and does a great job), but it takes about the same effort that you would spend making a character using one of the more flexible systems.


Karmagen typically results in characters worth more than 400 build points. Characters who are specialists will usually come out a bit ahead, while characters who are generalists will come out a lot ahead. So characters with lower dice pools will at least have more skills, and be more playable that way, compared to build points, where they will simply be gimped.