First off, my goal was simply to make a summoner. Maybe not even take a casting skill other than counterspell. Then I expanded the idea to a rigger denial drone possession specialist. Then I actually read up on hear ideas and ended up making a fairly generalized voodoo tradition mage. And finally I switched it over to karmagen in the excel sheet I'm using (sr4cg_dk_1m.xls) or whatever the file is. So any critique would be appreciated given the characters lack of cohesive concept. I also think I'm missing something because using karmagen I have a lot of high attributes, a lot of skills and a lot of money.

I'll update this with full sheet once I get home but basically with a dwarf I have tributes mostly in the 4s with a couple of 5s. 230k nuyen, and 10 or so skills of about rating 3. Does this sound right?

Sounds about right for Karmagen...

I don't have that much experience and even without a quick mathematical check I'm betting that you're using a 3x multiplier for attributes rather than a 5x multiplier. I could be wrong and I did no math to check you, but all 4's and a few 5's in attributes seemed like a huge tip-off that something was wrong.

That is with the x3 for attributes which is according to the sheet RAW.

I am going to pin down the enemies quality and replace the sensitive neural structure but I am wanting to build this a bit more rounded character if karmagen is going to make him that much "stronger", so since hacking is mostly skill+money (I haven't read unwired much so probably missing some things in that field) I might have a side of hacking. Probably pull in some skills that usually aren't used very often or some gear that might be useful but also isn't bought very often.

Here is a snapshot of what I have.

Dwarf
ATTRIBUTES Walk/Run 8 20
Body: 5 Charisma: 5 EDGE: 4
Agility: 4 Intuition: 4 Phys Init 7
Reaction: 3 Logic: 3 Passes 1
Strength: 4 Willpower: 6 Magic: 5

Counterspelling 4
Spellcasting 4
Summoning 5
Clubs 3
Firearms (Group) 3
Perception 2
Arcana 2
Enchanting 2
Binding 4
Survival 1
Pilot Ground Craft 2
Pilot Water Craft 1
Negotiation 2
Assensing 2
Astral Combat 3
Diving 2

QUALITIES
Thermographic Vision
Resistance to Pathogens (2)

Restricted Gear 10 (Power Focus)
Mentor Spirit 10 (Wise Warrior)
Sensitive Neural Structure -10
Enemy (3) -30
Day Job (1000¥/10hrs) -10
Prejudiced (Common, Biased) -20 (Non Vory crime groups/gangs)

It was RAW, until it was fixed.

Thankfully.

So was it fixed anywhere that is findable or is anyone going to fill me in.

The newer printings supposedly have it, but there has not been an official errata published for Runner's Companion yet.

The changes are fairly simple. Metatypes pay their BP cost in karma (elf costs 30 karma, etc.), and Attributes use the x 5 multiplier. Karmagen still comes out ahead of build points most of the time, but it is a lot closer, power-wise.

changes make sense. I'll put those in and see what happens.

Where's the source for where it has been fixed? Like.. can you link me to something?

Sadly a bunch of different forums post stating how karmagen works in the german book and few more stating that the newst english printing has the same exact changes is all there is on the net about this as we haven't gotten an errata for RC and considering the other erratas we're missing i wouldn't get my hopes up on getting one any time in the next few years

You could always use this.

he allready is.

To OP just use the sheets German RAW preset, it has the correct karmagen settings IRC.

That is amazingly stupid.

It helps to adopt a warts-and-all attitude.

Meh, last game I ran I used BCP gen and advancement.

I am not a big fan of Karma-gen: I find it far more munchkin causing that the BP approach (which surprised me).

I like designing characters...when I am on a train, or have nothing better to do, so I design quite a lot. Every character I make in Karmagen is much more powerful and less balanced that the ones that I make in BP generation. Most of my 400 BP characters I can create for around 600 karma. (I am using the race cost karma = bp, and attributes cost *5)

I also find that when helping other people make characters, explaining karma-gen is harder than the bp system, and far more mistakes are made in character design.

that can happen. yet some dice pools of BP-Chars will be very high, while karmagen-chars will have a lot more low dice pools. 10-15 skills at lvl1 is more realistic than unarmed 6 and nothing else ^^



that's right

Our table considers Metatypes costing twice the BP in karma (akin to qualities' cost). Doesn't make characters more broke, but it sure avoids the kind of characters you have with BP with skills 5 or 6 and skill groups 4 and any other skill (or specialization) being bought later with karma because is cheaper.

Just another observation.

When I want to run Shadowrun at a convention or with friends that haven't played it before, a 400 or 750 pt system is extremely heavy weight. Given that these games are likely going to last for 2 or 3 sessions, I use the priority system (although I am a recent convert of PACKS). The priority system is easy to understand, easy to generate, still has plenty of choices so that people can make the character they want, and so far hasn't produced any "broken" or "munchkin" characters.

I am sure it is possible to break it, but it seems perfectly usable to me.

no doubt here.
I haven't tried to break it yet, because nobody ever uses it in the long run.

I've seen several people mention PACKS and I'm now wondering what is it? Where can I find information on it?

My search-fu was weak. But eventually

Thanks, for some reason I could not find it when I did some searching myself.

400 Karma or 750 karma are only "heavyweight" in the sense that they are the default power level - and this is a game of kung-fu adepts, cybernetic killing machines, mages channeling awesome power, and similar types, who do dirty, very dangerous jobs as their regular vocation. Typical shadowrunners are not first-level characters. Lower-end, starting-out runners can be made with 320 build points or 600 karma, although I would also recommend a few other limitations (such as lower starting skill/resource caps) if you go that route.


I have never liked the priority system in SR4 (I found it elegant and easy to use in SR3, even if I preferred the flexibility and scalability of the point system). It is clunky, inflexible, and does not offer the same ease of use for inexperienced players that the SR3 version did. You can make decent characters with it (there is a thread that does many archetypes in priority system versions, and does a great job), but it takes about the same effort that you would spend making a character using one of the more flexible systems.


Karmagen typically results in characters worth more than 400 build points. Characters who are specialists will usually come out a bit ahead, while characters who are generalists will come out a lot ahead. So characters with lower dice pools will at least have more skills, and be more playable that way, compared to build points, where they will simply be gimped.

This is because higher skills and Attributes are proportionately more expensive in karmagen, but they do expect you to take some of them anyways. If you keep everything low, it throws it off, although you won't really have a broken character, just a character who is very well-rounded. If you look at my 600-karma character in this thread, he is worth 407 build points. The other one I did, the face, clocks in at 465 build points for 750 karma. They are separated by 150 karma, but only 58 build points. This is because the face, while still not hyper-specialized, still has a few higher skills and Attributes.

This happened to me as well-it's really hard to get them nailed close. (For some reason, I noticed that BecKS and the older systems in SR3 managed to get characters a bit closer. It's been awhile since I've played SR3 in any capacity though.)

I much prefer Karmagen; I don't mind if(most) types are bumped up a notch; with the ''Metas pay cost in BP=Karma'' and the x5 Attribute rule it comes out really close, IMO.

I use one houserule with Karmagen. Edge, Magic and/or Resonance is not counted to the max. This is because counting them hoses Human Technomancers and Mages too much. Even if it bumps up the level a tiny notch, I find it worth it since it's more fair; if I think a race will get hosed just for being a race(and no, Trolls having to pay 40 Karma with high stats are not hosed even under the x5 IMO), I'll adjust something. I came to the conclusion after I found a magically active human under Karmagen could not even get the even harsher BP Minimums.

Alternately, if you are a little worried about the power level; count Edge in but not Magic or Resonance. That shouldn't turn out too bad. (IMO, if a table uses Karmagen and a meta is able to get a solid attribute spread as well as being able to max out magic, a human should as well-some races already come out more beneficial under some systems-see Orks and BP-and I'd like to clamp down on that as much as I possibly can.)

who cares about power level anyway as long as all SCs at the table start equally.

I favor ElFenrir's house rule because the cap including special Attributes is one of those things that hits human awakened characters, and no one else. It doesn't really change the power level. It just evens the playing field a bit.


I personally believe two things. First, the GM should make his/her overall expectations and house rules clear before the game. Secondly, I think it works best when everyone uses the same character generation system, whether it be build points, karmagen, or priority.

I don't think having all SCs at the table start equally is always a valid approach, though. Some players like playing specialized characters, while others like playing more generalist characters. Making them start out "equally" means that either the specialists have to gimp themselves and take on some extra skills that they aren't really that interested in, or the generalists have to give up some breadth to their character to be able to hang with the sammie in a firefight.

I think it's better for everyone to play what they want. The GM needs to make an effort to highlight each player's areas of compentence, although players also need to be aware of what kind of game it is (if you play muscle in a game of subtle con men, or a fast-talking ganger in a paramilitary campaign, expect to be bored).

Using BP advancement fixes the same issue and is a more elegant solution - mostly because Karmagen blows the power level out the window.

The most ironic thing is that the 'fix' (charging meta-types their BP cost in karma, and making attributes x 5 in cost) actually makes the situations worse in some respects - an iconic troll is completely unplayable (next to other concepts in the same niche) still! He's being overcharged for stats that where not very good to begin with.



One of the most important things the guy running the game must understand is that applying the Karma system (and to a lesser extent the BP system) with either the by the book OR the errata'ed printing does not produce characters on an equal power level.

This can be simply seen by making a troll under both systems with almost maxed body and strength attributes. It's a corner case, but it's important to understand that the system breaks down in these corners.

I got it, i got it. Here. Thats the guy who helped write it.

Basically they fucked up, and wrote the rules for Karmagen with 4A in mind, and it got printed with 4th costs. The new RC apparently has the errata file printed in it. Since catalyst won't post the errata files, AH came forth and just gave it to us.

But yeah. Rating x 3 on attributes is basically like taking BP gen, and saying: "Your skills, specializations, and attributes are all half off. Go nuts."

Just out of curiosity, I went through the main book (SR4, so SR4A might be a bit different) and figured out the Bounty Hunter, Enforcer, and Sprawl Ganger archetypes. The bounty hunter came out to 725, the enforcer came out to 779 (and was not legal, since he wound up blowing 480 on core and special Attributes, out of the 455 that a troll is allowed), and the sprawl ganger came out to 632.

I have done trolls in karmagen, but typically I stop at 7 for Body and Strength, although sometimes I will go up to 8 Body for a real tank. As you can see, karmagen does not favor the aforementioned corner case (since the enforcer is the one with Body and Strength of 9 - incidentally, I assumed Uncouth being replaced with a similar cost flaw, since the book example didn't charge him double costs for social skills like they should have).


Still, out of all of the ways they could have fixed it, BP cost in Karma for archetypes and the x 5 multiplier for Attributes is the best I've seen. Charging metatype cost x 2 is way too much - who would ever want to play a metahuman? Elves, for example, would cost 60 karma for the 15 net karma gain they get in Attributes, and if they tried to take advantage of their Agility or Charisma bonus, they would get dinged even more (since Attribute costs go up exponentially rather than being a flat rate).

If you charge 2 x BP to be metahuman, you need to add stat modifications after caculating the karma cost.



That is precisely it - Karmagen punishes those concepts, because of the sliding scale for purchasing +1 strength, and that strength represents bad value in the first place. If I remember correctly, the other pregen characters are significantly cheaper than the high strength troll concepts.

I was actually thinking a bit about the 'punishing high strength/body Trolls'-they're the ones that stick out the most. But really, any race with a big bonus to an attribute can get pretty boned with this.

My thoughts were, shouldn't it actually *be* difficult to get these stats?

For example, it's true that a Body 7 troll, or a Body 6 Ork, or a Body 3 Human are technically ''High Average'' for their races(assuming 2 is more of the ''Dead Average Joe Down the Street'' human stat, which I typically look at a 2 as.)

But, that ''High Average'' Ork is still higher than the human, and the troll is higher than both of them. I mean, an 8 Body troll is kinda expensive under the new Karmagen(30+35+40=105 Karma), but a Human needs to spend 100 to get a 6 body, and he can't max anymore stats, and used up a lot more of his allowed Karma to do so. With a human, it's 100 to get a max Attribute(assuming no Qualities.) For a Troll to max, say, Body, it's 200. It's double, for not quite double the attribute, but a natural 10 body is huge. It costs a Human almost 1/8 of his starting Karma to max Body, it costs a Troll almost 1/3(I don't have exact fractions here, but it's between 1/7 and 1/8 for a human, and 1/3 and 1/4 for a troll.) For a 10 Body, 9 Strength troll, sure, he's going to pay 350 Karma for that. Those are huge stats. the Human pays 170 for a Body 6 and Strength 5, and he's basically half as effective as the troll in those areas. Both have 105 Karma left to spend on attributes, though the Troll will have less to spend on skills. But if you go heavy on things, you go less on others.

I guess, as mean as it sounds, if someone wants to go putting huge numbers in stats, they should pay for them. I don't have a problem with people needing a lot of resources to get a 9 in Body. I mean, a 9 Body troll is freaking extreme even for his own fellow trolls; remember your typical troll probably has a 6-7(if you use the human 2-3 scale.) Just like humans sporting 5-6 in stats aren't found under every rock, neither are trolls with 9-10's in Body&Strength, or Elves with 8's in Charisma. But Joe the Troll Mailman with his 7 in Body and Strength can still bench press a motorcycle, where his buddy Bob the Human Mailman with his 3's can maybe do some normal weights.

It depends, I suppose, how you look at it. If you think that metahumans should EASILY be able to reach their really high maximums, then perhaps BP is better off for you(not anyone particular, just a general 'you). If you think that super high attributes mean a lot and you really don't mind a race who has them having to pay a lot, then karmagen isn't so bad at all.

I actually go in the latter camp. I mean, I have a Bear shifter for a character. I had to pay out the nose for his Body and Strength, but I mean, he's a bear shifter. He gets a lot of perks. He can carry downed teammates rather easily and knock people's heads off. I did not care one bit he had to pay out the ass for his stats given the other things I got with him. Likewise, I have a troll big game hunter who I picture as a pretty robust guy; to me, that's an 8 Body and 7 Strength. I think he's plenty strong and tough for what he needs to do. If someone complains that they can't make every troll they have with a 10 Body and 9 Strength without sacrificing in other places, then perhaps karmagen isn't the issue.

(I'm not saying Karmagen is without it's flaws-IMO, all of the chargen systems I've seen have some flaws somewhere. I guess it depends which flaws bug you more.)

I actually rather use KarmaGen for one reason and one reason only. I hate having a different system for character creation and character advancement, especially when the creation system does not scale in cost per stat/skill level. It really encourages over focusing in a very limited range of abilities since it is much more efficent to do that and just by the other needed skills after the first couple of games.

I think build points balances that fairly well by capping how many skills or Attributes of a certain level you can get. There are both advantages and disadvantages to having one system for character creation and another one for advancement. Karmagen feels more organic, but it is less scalable, and falls flat for most of the more exotic character options.

I agree with the notion that an Attribute of 9 is an Attribute of 9, whether a human or a troll has it. But the troll also has lower mental Attribute caps, and is basically designed to be good at a fairly narrow range of roles. My own trolls tend to stop at around 7 and get the rest of the way with augmentations, but I can see the point of the players who like trolls with high Body and Strength. That's the main role for trolls, after all, and making it so expensive to be good there, when they are so limited elsewhere, could be frustrating. That's part of the reason that build points use a flat rate for Attributes (and it was also the rationale for karmagen originally not charging metatype costs).