Fan letter to CGL, Because we care Options

[Cain]

Personally, I'd like to see Posthuman Studios pick it up, or maybe Tinker and Smith.

[Acme]

I approve. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


How many shoddy books do we need to wait out until we'Re allowed to complain, by your logic?

I'm not in charge of telling people when to complain or not. I think people are overreacting and being far too cynical and willing to tear everything down just because of their ingrained mistrust of CGL (which may be warranted, I'll grant.) What if there are people who actually LIKE the book, do they get to have their opinion just because others don't?

By the way, my logic was getting tired of the "trend of terrible books" trope, when I'm only seeing one here. ONE is not a trend.

Publishers aren't crybabies, pubvlishers want to make money. If something sells bad, usually because it's of bad quality, then it won't be made. If the fandom isn't sunday school in the midwest kind of nice, they could care less. That said, there are a number of companies whoi'd probably be willing to give international SR a shot. My hope would be the Pegasus guys, because they delivered some damn fine work on the national releases, but that's just me. Rumor had it they were preparing a bit back in the days when it wasn't clear if Topps would just sink CGL, so maybe they could pick up, if there's anything left to pick up when CGL's done with the line.

Bull. The fandom is crying open rebellion over one book. Declaring the line is dead, and already starting to snipe on freelance writers when they don't even have any control over it. I'm not saying that they're afraid of the fandom being a little snarky. I'm saying they're afraid of possibly publishing one book off and this happening. And also? The utter and complete cynicism and negativity here on DS and trying to be fermented in other places is doing more than just worrying the publisher, it's scaring off players who actually care about the game and potential new players. THAT is killing the line far worse than a book that's poor quality.

[Cain]

Bull. The fandom is crying open rebellion over one book. Declaring the line is dead, and already starting to snipe on freelance writers when they don't even have any control over it. I'm not saying that they're afraid of the fandom being a little snarky. I'm saying they're afraid of possibly publishing one book off and this happening. And also? The utter and complete cynicism and negativity here on DS and trying to be fermented in other places is doing more than just worrying the publisher, it's scaring off players who actually care about the game and potential new players. THAT is killing the line far worse than a book that's poor quality.

This is what we call a straw man. I haven't seen anyone declare that the line is dead. I haven't seen any sniping on freelance writers, just the editors. And scaring consumers away from shoddy products is a customer service, not a negative act. If you really believe that, I have a Ford Pinto to sell you.

The only one proclaiming doom and gloom is you. I'll grant that some harsh words have been fired at CGL, the company; but that's different than proclaiming the death of Shadowrun. Like I said before, Shadowrun has survived changes of companies before. I'm sure it will again in the future.

[Nath]

By the way, my logic was getting tired of the "trend of terrible books" trope, when I'm only seeing one here. ONE is not a trend.

Depending on whom you ask, the trend started with War!, Sixth World Almanac, Corporate Guide or Vice... Well, you also find some people you would tell you it started with Shadows of Europe or Year of the Comet.

[Cain]

Depending on whom you ask, the trend started with War!, Sixth World Almanac, Corporate Guide or Vice... Well, you also find some people you would tell you it started with Shadows of Europe or Year of the Comet.

Don't forget Ghost Cartels, which really needed work.

[Acme]

Depending on whom you ask, the trend started with War!, Sixth World Almanac, Corporate Guide or Vice... Well, you also find some people you would tell you it started with Shadows of Europe or Year of the Comet.

Except I've seen more threads in favor of 6WA, CG and even Vice; War! seems to be the major one where the people have been lining up to call it garbage. And if you're throwing FanPro books in, that's also a little shady, don't you think? I thought this was about how CGL is taking a dump on the line, although thanks for bringing up those books, since hey! Those were supposedly shoddy books but people still bought them and I didn't hear that it was the end of the world for the game, that there were massive boycotts or hope that a new publisher was found. Hell, people were more complaining that YotC was late more than anything.

This is what we call a straw man. I haven't seen anyone declare that the line is dead. I haven't seen any sniping on freelance writers, just the editors. And scaring consumers away from shoddy products is a customer service, not a negative act. If you really believe that, I have a Ford Pinto to sell you.

The only one proclaiming doom and gloom is you. I'll grant that some harsh words have been fired at CGL, the company; but that's different than proclaiming the death of Shadowrun. Like I said before, Shadowrun has survived changes of companies before. I'm sure it will again in the future.

'
I don't mean scaring customers away from shoddy products, I mean scaring people away from the game as a whole.

And there has been plenty of sniping at the writers, I can point to the arguments against Aaron IN THIS VERY THREAD as well as several completely subjective arguments that hermit had been using from the beginning towards "the writers". And what would you call comments like "if there's anything left to pick up when CGL's done with the line."?

[Omenowl]

I'm not in charge of telling people when to complain or not. I think people are overreacting and being far too cynical and willing to tear everything down just because of their ingrained mistrust of CGL (which may be warranted, I'll grant.) What if there are people who actually LIKE the book, do they get to have their opinion just because others don't?

By the way, my logic was getting tired of the "trend of terrible books" trope, when I'm only seeing one here. ONE is not a trend.



Bull. The fandom is crying open rebellion over one book. Declaring the line is dead, and already starting to snipe on freelance writers when they don't even have any control over it. I'm not saying that they're afraid of the fandom being a little snarky. I'm saying they're afraid of possibly publishing one book off and this happening. And also? The utter and complete cynicism and negativity here on DS and trying to be fermented in other places is doing more than just worrying the publisher, it's scaring off players who actually care about the game and potential new players. THAT is killing the line far worse than a book that's poor quality.

It is not just the one book. Runner's companion looked rushed as did Running Wild. I don't even mind the poor state of the pdfs like they did with SR4a and then going to back to fix issues and letting us redownload the revised copy. It is once it is printed that I have a problem.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

By the way, my logic was getting tired of the "trend of terrible books" trope, when I'm only seeing one here. ONE is not a trend.

Like RC-1138 "Boss" likes to say: 'One is an anomaly, two is a trend'.

And yeah, my major concern with War! and sending a letter, is in hope CGL will listen and shape up. I mean, Attitude and possibly Spy Games probably are finished as we speak (or perhaps they are still in editing and proofing stage, which I hope it can still be fixed).
And 6WA was 'frustrating', at least to me, I had REALLY high hopes of that book and in the end I think it could have given so much more...
Vice I liked, though.

[nezumi]

Like I said, there are 12,000 Dumpshockers alone. There's also a considerable number of Shadowrun fans on other web forums that link to here. Let's stick with just Dumpshcokers, and imagine the effect if they all boycotted War! I don't care how big your print run is, that would make more than a "minor blip".

I don't know, Shadowrun players and Dumpshockers especially seem to be the most independent, defiant, trend-bucking demographic I've ever met. I would be surprised if a single person on DS did not buy the book who otherwise was going to because of all of us talking about boycott. Likely the negative reviews cost a lot of sales, but that's not boycotting (and I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't give a shoddy product negative reviews).

[CanRay]

Personally, I'd like to see Posthuman Studios pick it up, or maybe Tinker and Smith.

Come on, why do we just form our own company and produce books?

We could also have blackjack! And strippers!

Diversification of revenue stream! It's the wave of the future!

[hermit]

What if there are people who actually LIKE the book, do they get to have their opinion just because others don't?

So far TJ hasn't been banned. So? It's just that there don't seem to be many. Not even Medicine Man does, and he's usually really eager to defend anything SR4.

You act like any complain is something like a sin and vile and must be stopped. What about people who actually do not like War!? Do they have to be silent so things are not oh-so-cynical and you feel unwell? Yes, you are in no position to tell people whether to complain or not. But you do. Why?

Bull. The fandom is crying open rebellion over one book. Declaring the line is dead, and already starting to snipe on freelance writers when they don't even have any control over it.

Nobody said that but you. And writers are well repsonsible for what they write and hand in. Because the writers are the ones who wrote this, so they have to live with it being critcised. That's part of the publishing process, see. Public reception.

I don't see where you're going. We should write smashing reviews of War!, in the hope that it will somehow magically make future books better? In the hope that this somehow will not happen again?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So far TJ hasn't been banned.

Nice shot across the Bow there Hermit...

Not everyone has the same opinions as you do. Yet it seems that you are adamant about marginalizing those who do not actually agree with you. There are those who find that offensive... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[hermit]

Not everyone has the same opinions as you do.

Yes, you like war!, and are not banned, as he claims all those who love War! are. Which is the point I was going to make.

Yet it seems that you are adamant about marginalizing those who do not actually agree with you. There are those who find that offensive

And there are those who find your constant baiting offensive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sengir]

And that's also your opinion, we haven't had a book past War to see if this is the state of the game as it stands or if this is just an anomaly.

Already forgotten CorpGuide and 6WA?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Already forgotten CorpGuide and 6WA?

No issues with either of those books either, so nothing to actually forget there... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Method]

The current debate is not contributing anything to the efforts of those who started this thread. If you would like to contribute to the letter writing campaign thats great, otherwise please take the "CGL is ruining SR" debate elsewhere (there are numerous other threads).

I would also note that posting here repeatedly just to tell everyone that you don't think letters will work can be considered trolling and will be treated as such from this point forward. Your opinions are noted. Move along.

Thanks!

[Sengir]

No issues with either of those books either, so nothing to actually forget there... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Sloppy prrofreading, layout issues ("damn, why is the scrolling so slow...oh wait, the page did already finish loading, it's supposed to be half empty"), fact checking issues...everything (well, except political worm cans) people complain about in War!, only significantly less severe.

If the problems of CG and 6WA had been fixed in the next release it would have been a blooper. In fact I believed this to be so, given the circumstances of the books' birth a suboptimal product was at least understandable, and I was confident that the stabilization of CGL's situation would also be reflected in the book. Instead it got even worse. And that was what prompted me to write a letter, the fact that the line is deteriorating and not just having a bad apple in the bunch.

[Kid Chameleon]

How about a group of Dumpshockers get the folks from CGL backed into a corner during a Con and explain in very calm and mature tones exactly how they screwed up in War!?

Or you could just raise your hand in the "What's up with Shadowrun?" talk.

[Acme]

So far TJ hasn't been banned. So? It's just that there don't seem to be many. Not even Medicine Man does, and he's usually really eager to defend anything SR4.

You act like any complain is something like a sin and vile and must be stopped. What about people who actually do not like War!? Do they have to be silent so things are not oh-so-cynical and you feel unwell? Yes, you are in no position to tell people whether to complain or not. But you do. Why?

Nobody said that but you. And writers are well repsonsible for what they write and hand in. Because the writers are the ones who wrote this, so they have to live with it being critcised. That's part of the publishing process, see. Public reception.

I don't see where you're going. We should write smashing reviews of War!, in the hope that it will somehow magically make future books better? In the hope that this somehow will not happen again?

I'm only writing this quick because we've already had colored text telling us to cut it out. Hermit- I'm not trying to get anyone to change their opinion. If it's a terrible book then fine. Hell, I wasn't even the one trying to say the letter writing campaign was a waste of time. If you'd actually bother to read what I write, I said I supported it. What I didn't support was the apocalyptic type of talk that prompts things like Cain talking about a registered boycott, trying to harm the company, etc. I don't really care what you think, I just think the bitter and cynical tone that things have taken here are not healthy.

[hermit]

So ... you basically call me responsible for Cain being Cain? That's a bit bewildering. He was like that far before me.

And why pretend everything's shiny when things clearly are not? A few more books like this and maybe a 5th Edition like this, and Shadowrun's done for. That's how it is.

[Acme]

So ... you basically call me responsible for Cain being Cain? That's a bit bewildering. He was like that far before me.

And why pretend everything's shiny when things clearly are not? A few more books like this and maybe a 5th Edition like this, and Shadowrun's done for. That's how it is.

Maybe it'll be done for you, and that's fine. If you think my trying to calm the cynicism and bitterness before THAT is what ends up killing the game is bad, then fine. I shouldn't have to say this one more time. I support the letter writing campaign. But I guess 'cause I'm not bashing everything that just keeps getting ignored.

[Method]

Last warning.

[nezumi]

Or you could just raise your hand in the "What's up with Shadowrun?" talk.

Actually, given many of the people I've encountered, that seems like it could be a very, very bad idea. Unless it's someone who is intelligent, eloquent, eager to push balanced discussion, preferably with a question prepared beforehand, I see the potential for it just reinforcing the lack of communication we're seeing.

Make questions sessions seem like protests and they'll stop having questions sessions - but probably still won't listen to your protests.

What I didn't support was the apocalyptic type of talk that prompts things like Cain talking about a registered boycott, trying to harm the company, etc. I don't really care what you think, I just think the bitter and cynical tone that things have taken here are not healthy.

I disagree with you about the practical effects. As has been pointed out, the license has changed hands twice. It still has a very major following. Transitioning to a new company can and has been handled quickly and efficiently, with a significant increase in quality. The worse option is degrading the brand name over time - that's actual damage to Shadowrun which is difficult or impossible to repair.

The major caveat to that is I'm not especially attached to CGL or SR4 specifically. If you are, keeping the line in CGL's hands is clearly beneficial. But definitely, the concern is 'CGL/SR4 vs. Other/SR5', not 'Shadowrun or no Shadowrun'.

[hermit]

Shove the passive agressiveness, please. That, not you not bashing everything, makes you go unnoticed.

Also, if you buy anything CGL produces, CGL has no reason to change it'S ways before it'S too late. Eventually, many people will not buy SR because CGL thinks putting out crap product is fine - in a line that has a reputation for high quality, or had - and less and less people will be interested. THAT will tank the line. Certainly not complaining so the company egts off their arse and does soemthing (or the license goes to another, more capable publishing company).

[Cain]

The current debate is not contributing anything to the efforts of those who started this thread. If you would like to contribute to the letter writing campaign thats great, otherwise please take the "CGL is ruining SR" debate elsewhere (there are numerous other threads).

Done: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34010