War! Gear & Rules, What's good, iffy, needs fixing or a complete revamp? Options

[otakusensei]

But this is nitpicking. Though that would be sure appreciated, I don't believe perfect knowledge of Earthdawn should still be a requirement for SR author.

Earthdawn is the name given to the game that was made based off the back story to Shadowrun. That means the setting info is Shadowrun, and by extension should at least be in someone's awareness when you're referencing a character that lived in that setting in a product by a company owned by another that lived in that setting.

You can't cherry pick setting material. Either it's canon and you deal with it (Ryan "Wish-Fulfillment" Mercury) or do something else. And if you do choose to work setting material you should work first to make sure it fits, because if it doesn't you need to find something else. Sandwiches are delicious snacks, but make lousy hammers. I would not suggest the "tooled steel on rye" to bridge this gap.

[sabs]

The Treshhold for a rating 6 SiN is 192.

Dp: Forgery+Edit+stuff
Forgery 7
Edit 6
Specialty +2
Encephalon +1
PuSheD +1
Teamwork Bonus 7
Custom Interface +1
Optimized: edit +1

26 dice, 7 edge.
DP 33, with exploding 6s
If you roll decently that's 14 hits. Only 178 to go, but now you have 32 dice.

I suspect it's still basically impossible to make a rating 6 SiN given the RAW.

[otakusensei]

And to bring this somewhat back on topic: The rules for the automatic rappelling thing again refer to parachuting rules. Why did we still not get any? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Just use a grapple gun for half the price. I'm sure it has a "reverse" setting.

[Nath]

[*]Yes, Dunkelzahn is a tribute name. We already do that sort of thing today. While I doubt the authorization for the name came from Lofwyr himself, I reckon he's got enough class to allow the tribute to the fallen rival to stand; maybe he's a complete bastard in your game, that's okay.

As a president of the union, even for a few hours, Dunkelzahn could have gotten an aircraft carrier, or even an entire class, named after him (or an attack submarine, had he qualified in, like Jimmy Carter).

[sabs]

I need to read the rules they put in for monofilament grenades.

I can think of several ways of making such things and having them be very frightening. But I'm not sure what they did with them.

[hermit]

They made them instant money.

[Draco18s]

They made them instant money.

Do explain.
Unless they are somehow either:
a) Filled with gold coins worth more than it took to buy the grenade
or
b) Summon a Meowth to use Coin Throw
I'm not seeing the connection.

[Tzeentch]

-- The equipment names are probably less important than other issues (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-- Monofilament grenades are a so-so upgrade over high-explosive grenades (SR4A, p. 325) with a much higher availability and cost. Lower power, better AP.

[hermit]

a) Filled with gold coins worth more than it took to buy the grenade

They did. Meters upon meters of monofilament wire. For some 1000 nuyen.

[Tzeentch]

-- Anyone care to run the numbers with me for the Aztechnology Cuanmitztli Main Battle Tank vs main guns?

[Draco18s]

They did. Meters upon meters of monofilament wire. For some 1000 nuyen.

Ah ha. So if you were inclined to pick up the pieces (or dissect the grenade) you could then sell the monowire for more than it took to buy the grenade...

(Or as my GM says:
Cogdissident: wait, how the heck would that work?
Cogdissident: they'd have to be anchored to various parts of the grenade casing on the outside
Cogdissident: monofilament isn't dangerous since it can't have a lot of anchor points. unattached monofilament is no more dangerous than cobwebs
Cogdissident: you can throw a big handful of monofilament at someone and it won't harm them
Cogdissident: unless it is pulled "through" them with some weight
Cogdissident: and being tiny near-microscopic lines to begin with, they can't carry enough force)

[Adarael]

They did. Meters upon meters of monofilament wire. For some 1000 nuyen.

Assuming you can open the grenade, unravel the monofilament wire and use it as "meters and meters" of the stuff, with the same rules as monofilament wire-as-standard, which there's no indication you can. Just because it is made of the same material doesn't mean it's the same net product when disassembled. And, I should note, there were already complaints about being able to do that with all other types of grenades, selling the explosives inside.

There are many valid complaints about many things in Shadowrun, but this isn't one; this is like complaining about being able to break down your coffee pot and sell its parts as a cheap commlink, because coffeepots don't have a device rating and therefore default to a rating 3, internet-capable machine. It's a problem only if you imagine it to be one.

Draco: It could be studded with weights every meter or so, so the charge propels the weights outward?

[hermit]

There are many valid complaints about many things in Shadowrun, but this isn't one; this is like complaining about being able to break down your coffee pot and sell its parts as a cheap commlink, because coffeepots don't have a device rating and therefore default to a rating 3, internet-capable machine.

It's more like if you would buy a focus for cheap, melt it and sell the Orichalcum for three times it's value. Aaron just apparently ignored the fact that monofiber is expensive. Stats-wise, though, this is not a dire problem.

[Saint Sithney]

Ah ha. So if you were inclined to pick up the pieces (or dissect the grenade) you could then sell the monowire for more than it took to buy the grenade...

If I remember correctly, it is described as having "hundreds of meters of monowire" inside it and it costs 150¥.
Meanwhile, monowire costs 1000¥ per meter.

So 150¥ and a wrench nets you 100,000¥ worth of monowire. Actually more, since "hundreds" is plural.

It might also do to mention that monowire and microwire have the same 8P damage effects, while monowire is 10F 1,000¥/m compared to 4(fully legal) 50¥/100m for microwire. Though, I suppose microwire never mentions any AP effects..

[hermit]

-- Anyone care to run the numbers with me for the Aztechnology Cuanmitztli Main Battle Tank vs main guns?

Uhm ... Sengir did on a German Forum, IIRC ...? Sengir?

[Kagetenshi]

They made them instant money.

The survival knife lives!

Although this one's actually better, as your margins on the survival knife were pretty slim.

~J

[Adarael]

It's more like if you would buy a focus for cheap, melt it and sell the Orichalcum for three times it's value. Aaron just apparently ignored the fact that monofiber is expensive. Stats-wise, though, this is not a dire problem.

The monofiber that is statted out and is useful as fiber alone is expensive. That does not mean THIS class of monofiber is expensive. It could be a lesser grade, with a wider molecular width, because Shadowrun monofiber has never been truly monomolecular. If it's lesser quality, and is unlikely to damage anyone unless propelled out of a grenade, then it'll probably be cheaper. It's like assuming all grades of steel are the same simply because they're called "Steel". I see no reason that all monowire be the same quality, and so the monowire in these grenades need not be as expensive as standard monowire. And therefore, also, cannot merely be unspooled and used the same way.

Edit: Kagetenshi, thank you. The surivival knife is what I was remembering, not grenades.

[hermit]

It's like assuming all grades of steel are the same simply because they're called "Steel". I see no reason that all monowire be the same quality, and so the monowire in these grenades need not be as expensive as standard monowire. And therefore, also, cannot merely be unspooled and used the same way.

If so, it would be really wise for the rules writer to say so.

[Adarael]

Why? Did they say you can't melt down force 1, reach 0 weapon foci and make money? Did they say you can't sell the explosives in high-explosive grenades as generic high explosives and make money? Did they say you can't break down your toaster and sell it as a rating 3 commlink, or take the rating 3 control program out of it and sell it for a profit? Did they tell you that you can't start with a free spirit as a contact who has the wealth power, who just sits around generating money for you all day? No.

[hermit]

No. Because that works.

But you're saying you can't do this with monowire grenades, because there is no reason why this should not work, too.

[Adarael]

What I'm saying with these examples is that they only work if the GM allows them to work. For instance, there's no indication you CAN melt down a weapon focus and extract anything meaningful out of it, any more than I can give back my breakfast in any kind of coherent form. There's no indication the high explosives in an HE grenade are the same explosives listed in the main book and cost anything comparable. There's nothing indicating you can break down your toaster and extract generic programs from it, rather than hard chips with the "brew coffee" program in them. And there's nothing indicating a character can start with a free spirit with the wealth power as a contact.

The only thing allowing or disallowing any of these is a GM ruling or opinion. Same with monowire.

Edit: Let me put it another way. Where are the rules that say you can even unspool the monowire and use it? Or hell, even open the grenade at all?

[Saint Sithney]

Actually they tell you the exact power of the explosives in grenades and microgrenades (Arsenal p90,) just not the weight.

Also, rules concerning breaking down a hand grenade:

Build = Bomb or Hand Grenade - Demolitions + Logic - 8 - 5 minutes
So, by the build/repair rules breakdown takes half the threshold with the same period.

Ta-da! Now you know it's RAW legal, so the only weak argument you have left for this gross oversite is the "Well, maybe it's shitty single-ply monowire instead of the good quilted stuff," that neglects the fact that there already is a name for that in the books.

The whole million-dollar grenade problem could have been a total non-issue if it just said microwire instead of monowire.

[Adarael]

They tell you the exact power of the grenades and microgrenades, yes. But not the composition of the explosives, or if they retain that power outside of their casings. So you can't make any assumptions about if a 10p hand grenade is made up of the same moldable substance as C12.

[Smokeskin]

High Powered ammo is underpowered. At +2DV and -2 dice to hit, even if you discount the risk of missing altogether or glitching, it does the same expected damage as APDS or Ex-Ex rounds. But it has an increased risk of missing and glitching, and it requires a special chambering. It is just plain stupid.

[Saint Sithney]

Here, let me fix this:

Microfilament Grenade: This grenade is similar to a
fragmentation grenade. Rather that a fragmenting shell, however,
it is built with hundreds of meters of microwire wound
around the exploding core, lashing out in several pieces and all
directions on detonation. Damage from a microfilament grenade
is resisted with Impact armor.

Stats and pricing remain the same. All controversy disappears.