There are a few topics on War!, but for this thread, let's focus on making that last chapter hum. Sorry, Bogota, but you will remain ignored.

What new rules or gear added by War! is solid as stands and you're eager or willing to see incorporated into your campaigns (assuming it fits the power level)? What reservations do you have? What do you think needs a bit of tweaking to fit right? What is totally broken? If something is broken, how should we fix it? Please be specific and provide your reasoning.

To start with, the one item that's probably gotten the most razzing is the Slow spell. Sounds great in concept, but in practice the nearly immediate deceleration to 1 m/s neutralizes every ballistic and explosive weapon in the game at a trivial force, and also splats the HALO team it was supposed to help insert. Whoops. Off the top of my head, I think it might work better if Slow applied a deceleration based on Force. Say Accel rating equal to 10 x Force with a max load of 200 kg per net hit. Guns still work, but it can be used for parachuting. Drop the Drain code by 1 to account for the restricted effect. Alternatively, just use a Mass Levitate variation. Add +2 to the drain on Levitate and make it Area effect.

As has been colorfully noted elsewhere, whoever added Ballast Tanks to the naval vessels may have meant well but didn't read Arsenal all that carefully since that particular modification only applies to submersibles. It's an easy fix to just ignore that Standard Modification on all but the submarines.

On the other hand, I think the new Milspec Matrix Gear is largely solid. I like having the rules for everything over 6, and the costs/availability seem to scale appropriately to keep them in only high-end campaigns. My big gripe is that the ratings on the commlinks look backwards. I would expect that higher Signal matters more than higher Response to all military grunts but the hackers. I'd be happier to flip those values.

Thoughts on this or anything else in that chapter?

-- My 4e rules-fu is a bit weak but:

Nuclear weapons (p. 159) have a damage dropoff far higher than non-nuclear THOR kinetic shots (-6/m vs -5/100m). I assume this is in error. In general the blast rules are a bit bizarre anyways. For reference see the RAND study.

Nuclear damage in general is anemic beyond the "devastated" radius. The smallest nuke they note (130P, -6m, c. 20m devastated radius) does only 4P damage at 21 meters. This is like Rifts.

Mine Detectors (p. 165) are so highly exothermic they can be seen under 2 meters of soil! How this works or why it doesn't damage or destroy the mine in the process is unknown. It also implies these things can detect mines at over 2 meters under soil and dig down or something. Fantastically bizarre logic on this one.

Mine Concealers (p. 165) are extremely unimpressive.

Not sure why it's necessary that the Abdulla (p. 172) needs such a large crew (121) with 2070's automation technology. Just a detail quibble.

Shadowrun aircraft have lost the capability to launch cruise missiles (p. 174) as they require a vertical launch system.

Not sure what the point of the Self-Contained Personnel Compartment (pp. 175-177) is, given the size and cost.

Designate (p. 178) presumably also duplicates all encryption of the designators (otherwise it wouldn't work) which should let you spoof any enemy designators as well.

If this is taken to be -6/100m, then it deals 4p at 2.1 km, which is about right for tactical theatre-based nuclear weapons of about 1.5, 2 kilotons? Bigger than a davy crockett, about the size of the W25 fired on the AIR-2 Genie missile? So I suspect the nuclear damage is supposed to be -6/100m, like Thor shots.

I wasn't going to post anything more in any topic that's even remotely linked to WAR, but I had to comment on this one.

It's brilliant. If I was GM at your table, you'd get a Karma just for coming up with it, and maybe another one for pulling it off.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33763

So can my mage learn the Encrypt spell at some point? That precedent seems like it could get really hairy...

Only if you can encode the more general Encrypt spell as encryption on a designator-using indirect-fire weapon.

Too tired to think if this could be made to work, but I think it would be complicated.

Edit: actually, what's the wording on the spell? I think you could use this for secure key transmission, if it's liberal enough. Have the sending party encode the key in the encryption for an indirect-fire weapon, then have the receiving party go into a signal-tight bunker and Designate for the weapon, using an appropriate recorder to record the Designated signal.

~J

Personally, the idea of magic emulating tech encryption just gives me the screaming heebie jeebies.

What's next, a "hack the Matrix" spell?






-k

I think that's a technomancer.

Okay, I walked right into that one, didn't I?



Seriously, though. Magic and tech shouldn't be mixing, at least not that easily.




-k

Not on that level, certainly.

-- I'm guessing the writer thought that target designators are fancy flashlights, which magic could replicate easily.

The biggest rules issue is the rules for combining damage when you duct tape grenades or whatever together. It's not strictly equipment, but you need to fix it.

Do any of you mind if I use this thread as a basis for a fan-made errata?

Without trying to start fights, can you limit yourself to that?


The military grimore section gives me a headache. I dislike several of the spells and powers both on a universe level and a game balance level.

Many spells need to be severely nerfed (for instance, slow needs to lose the bullet stop capacity; that might be another spell called "bullet stop" where every hit will stop a bullet fired at you or something). The Designator spell needs to stop being Spoof magic. It'll be more than swapping a few numbers, but I think it can be done with Errata insterad of a total rewrite. The Really Huge Numbers Of Dice rules though, need a total rewrite and a staging system, since the SR4 damage system breaks down with these numbers. That'll probably be 'optional rules', since we decided against a total rewrite.

The forums ate my response

Arsenal

p. 44
-- If I'm reading this right the armor capacity example is incorrect, as Fire Resistance 5 is either [2] (on the table) or [10] (2*Rating, which does not appear to be how the rules work). Not sure if this is an existing errata.


War!

p. 156 Anti-Tank Rounds.
[SUGG] Either remove as redundant with APDS or eliminate availability for sniper rifles.
Reason: Most sniper rifles use battle rifle caliber ammunition so the "large-bore" limitation is nonsensical.

p. 156 Armor-Piercing Flechette
-- These are effectivelly AP Mod -5, which may be a balance concern.

p. 156 Sensor Rounds
[SUGG] Add "The sensor is destroyed on impact."
Reason: The rules imply it only scans along the ballistic path. This would make it explicit.

p. 157 Gecko Grenade
-- Note that it only can attach to solid surfaces. Quick readers may miss that part.

p. 159 Nuclear Weapons
-- The devastated/damage dropoffs are nonsensical across weapons, but we will ignore that for the moment.
[SUGG] Change example damage to "130P, -6/100m"
Reason: As written only Rifts nuclear weapons have more bizarre damage effects.

p. 160 Aesir Guidance Laser and Aesir Guidance Beacon
[SUGG] Remove and replace with note that you can use a normal target designator (Arsenal, p. 34).
Reason: Redundant with existing rules.

p. 162 Milspec-Software
[SUGG] Delete.
Reason: So the corps intentionally cripple their own capabilities? That seems highly unlikely.

p. 162 Tactical Satellite Mapping
[SUGG] Change to Tactical Map or simply delete.
Reason: This doesn't even neeed a satellite to work. Anyways, this should be something that is part and parcel of a tactical network.

p. 163 Armor Foam
-- Someone with better rules-fu than me should comment on the balance of it being an instant Armor 14 structure. Rules lawyers could argue that a spray application to any vehicle would add the Armor as no minimum thickness is specified.

p. 163 MCT Gun Pit
-- So the soldier has to climb a 1 meter wall to get into or out of this pit?

p. 163 Emergency Field Dressing
-- This thing is big time munchkin bait. Simply apply it to yourself to benefit from the High Pain Tolerance 2 quality, injured or not.

p. 165 Mine Detector
[SUGG] Change entire description to:
Mine Detectors: These soft nanobots are sprayed in an area, where they settle into the ground and form an ad-hoc sensor network. They can detect most mines or other explosives to a depth of up to two meters after ten minutes.
Reason: The existing description is nonsensical. This is just a bit less nonsensical (I still ignore how exactly they "settle into the ground")

p. 171 Hull Breaches and Sinking
-- These rules are nonsensical and need to be replaced. A starting point may be that the vessel can withstand a number of breaches equal to its Structure or something.

p. 172 Central Industries Tortuga-Class Cruiser
[SUGG] Remove Ballast Tanks 2

p. 173 Harland & Wolff Blackjack-Class Destroyer
[SUGG] Remove Ballast Tanks 2

p. 173 KM Jagdpferd-Class Missile Boat
[SUGG] Remove Ballast Tanks 2

p. 173 MosTrans Colombo-Class Cargo Ship
[SUGG] Remove Ballast Tanks 2

p. 173 Shiawase Hikigaeru-Class Amphibious Assault Carrier
[SUGG] Remove Ballast Tanks 2

p. 173 YNT Shibanokuji-Class Aircraft Carrier
[SUGG] Remove Ballast Tanks 2

p. 174 Cruise Missiles
[SUGG] Replace second sentence with:
It requires a vertical launch system (p. 177) or reinforced weapon mount (Arsenal, p. 147) to be deployed, using Exotic Ranged Weapons (Cruise Missile) + Logic.
Reason: Otherwise aircraft can't carry them.

p. 178 Designate
[SUGG] Delete.
Reason: Unnecessary and creeps towards ability of magic to count as specialized high tech equipment.

p. 178 Slow
[SUGG] Delete.
Reason: Problematic. A similar thematic spell could probably use the same name, with simpler mechanics.

-- Also probably errata is that none of the War! vehicles have ECCM. Not one.

WHUT, yes they don't have the AP +5 that normal flechette has, but that doesn't mean it effectively has an AP mod of -5

-- Yeah that's a bit more strongly worded than I had originally (first post got ate by the forum). It's a flechette with all the advantages and none of the drawbacks.

SR4A, p. 324 DM +2, APM +5, Impact, Avail 2R, 100
War!, p. 156 DM +2, APM --, Impact, Avail 18F (APDS is 16F), 160

More on the Barrier foam : you can put enough of the stuff in a grenade (that's what, 500 g - 1 pound ?) to create 8 cubic meters of a material with an Armor 14, Structure 8.. Biullet-proff soap bubbles, without magic !

The problem with "cruise missles" is that it is used to describe anything from a exocet to a tomahawk. I suspect the author had the latter in mind when writing up the section, as the former was (to a degree) covered by the launch weapons in arsenal.

You think it's solid if Response 7+ that was labeled R&D stuff is a simple stock item? That Program rated 7+ had severe restrictions in Unwired and now simply just degrade?
Solid that Arsenal lists commlinks for military armor as rating 4-6 and now it's easily 7+? Nevermind that Signal 7+ was stated to be commercially available instead of illegal, just too large to be put into commlinks.
Maybe you even think it's solid that a military spider can have a commlink that has better ratings than the uplink of the Corporate Court as specified in Unwired. Then it sure is solid that said spider can upgrade his commlink to run as an UV node, right?

Thanks for the Suggestions Tzeentch.

It is solid with the Base Rules, I guess that was what Daishi meant (and it is, at least, more solid than the 3-digit damage codes); it is not solid with any of the core expansions. But those are not required reading. Of course, the author is the same who wrote good parts of Unwired's rules ...

It's what a MapSoft or TacSoft already does.

I think it's probably best to ban War! and War gear! as a whole, and then do a case by case analysis of some things for your table. And for Missions, I'd just ban the thing completely.

The Missions coordinator person, John Dunn, is the co-developer of War!, so it is rather unlikely to expect no tie-ins to it in Missions, killing yet another working part of Shadowrun productions (what about quality in Missions, is the editing as bad there as in War! and the Almanac?).

Let's just say the faction rewards vary insanely.

Other stuff I noticed in the vehicles section:
- The tracked vehicles are mostly missing the "Tracked Vehicle" mod
- The antroform walker drone has neither Walker Mode nor Mechanical Arm mods
- Weapon mount notations are inconsistent and mostly omit which control is used
- There's a general lack of chemical protection and ECCM among vehicles
- The German names:
-- "Keller" means "cellar". I suppose it was meant to be "Keiler" (male boar), which at least is in the German tradition of naming vehicles after animals, but the name is currently taken by a mine-clearing tank
-- Leopard is fine
-- Sigurd is also good with the preference for Norse names in SR
-- "Kreutzritter" should be "Kreuzritter" (crusader). And why should a German vehicle be named after Christian knights who don't have the best reputation, it's not like we are overly religious both IRL and in Shadowrun (except Westphalia)
-- Wolf is OK again
-- Panther and "Habicht" (Goshawk) also
-- "Vogelhund" (bird dog) sounds weird, and vehicles are named after species rather than roles animals may take (which would be locating birds shot down by somebody else...)
-- Dunkelzahn. For a S-K product. No comment.
-- "Panzerschiff" (ironclad) is a role description again, not a name.
-- "Jagdpferd" is a horse for hunters...do I have to repeat myself?
-- "Glucke" is a mother hen, or figuratively an overprotective mother. Really intimidating name.
-- "Wasserträger" is literally a "water carrier", but in reality means some low-grade assistant who does the drudge work...

-- Yup. It automatically updates a map? Well that's exactly what a normal MapSoft does (see SR4A, p. 330).

-- Military Signal 7+ commlinks are pretty much just fancy satellite links (SR4A, p. 328). The signal boosters and associated electronics are probably of negligable external bulk (the antenna can be incorporated into the load-bearing equipment and helmet).

-- Wait ... am I reading this right and the best Rating 10 Jammer is reduced to Rating 1 at 46-50 meters?

Jammers suck in SR4, don't even try to bother.

The really funny thing is that the Signal Table only goes up to 9 – which is Maritime/naval radar or commercial AM/FM radio , with a range of 400 km. With War!, you can upgrade your Transys Cybernaut commlink default Signal of 8 (100km range, Flight radar or dedicated ground surveillance radar) to Signal 10 – assuming the usual progression of the Signal Table, that would be 1000km range.

The sheer energy output of this commlink would kill the operator, since this is not a directional beam like the satellite links, but a broadcast.

Not to mention that you no longer have dead matrix zones anywhere.

I mean, even chicago has full matrix access. Because all you need is 1 Shadowrun hacker in the city and he's got signal access for everyone and their grandmother.

That's why Shadowrunners get a mission to turn on the bloody thing
I think with preparations you can survive that energy, but not for long.

Really? I'd like to introduce you to this radical invention called a cable. So you first plug it in, THEN you turn it on, while you stand wwwaaayyyy over there.

I personally plan to houserule it so anything with a Signal that high requires the hacker to take Borrowed Time.

Radical!

I see no nescessity for Signal >6 for hackers anyway. The military commlinks make no sense.

Signal 6, ECCM 6, = 12
The best jammer in the world is only 10. So really,there's no reason to need anything higher than that.

What is this matrix dead zones thing you are talking about?

By RAW, a Satellite Link may have a Signal 8 uplink, but more importantly, it has a Device Rating of 3, providing Matrix access in a Signal 3 zone. Even with the restrictions of SR4A, you can upgrade this to Signal 5 and everyone up to 4km radius is online. And we are not even talking Retrans Unit 10km radius yet, which you can install on blimps.

But… none of this actually matters since the SR4 matrix is a mesh network – you don't need direct mutual signal range, just links in the chain.

Bottom line: The Signal modules in War! make no sense at all and are sheer mindless power creep. They are unnecessary for actual soldiers, because even Signal 4 plus a sat link (mounted on a drone for the lazy) will get you a long way. If you really need to spread yourself within a 10km radius, Signal 6 will do just fine. And of course, while you might need a license to operate Signal 7+ broadcast equipment, it certainly isn't going to be flat out illegal.

Since the jammer needs to beat the signal, even Signal 4, ECCM 6 with Optimization 2 will do just fine – and will run on the minimum Device Rating for military helmet commlinks in Arsenal.

Pffft. That's too trivial for Shadowrunners.
I also am slightly worried about energy requirements of such monstrosity.

Read the descriptions of Chicago, and Lagos.
Also read the descriptions of parts of the Barrens.
It talks about them being Matrix Dead zones.

Chicago actually says that the whole place has no outside matrix access, and only a sort of local.net


With signal ranges in the 100 and 1000km that just makes no fucking sense.

This is exactly why I go "WTF?" over ShadowRun's signal measure. No one (and I mean NO ONE) needs a signal rating that high.

Couple cities in Europe also had kinda "local net" only. Was it Berlin free city or something?

Maybe there are anti-technomancers, like anti-mages, who siphon the wiFi joy away?


Yeah, the eastern part. I guess they just don't get any access there because the corps won'T let them or because every Kiez is operating their own jammers to prohibit exposure to The Man's propaganda.

Yeah the energy requirement makes no sense, as written it is clearly designed for people to run around with, and at that power level you wouldn't even need to stick it in your pants to cook yourself.

The other part that makes no sense - any character I've made that has relied on 'having a working radio' has duct taped a satellite comm link upgrade to his hat. Why is anyone ever going to get a signal 10 commlink anyway? It's just bizarre.

That's already delusional given just the stuff in the main book.

With sat uplinks and mesh networks, those zones vanish as soon as anybody wants matrix access there.

It's true
1 guy with a satellite link and all of a sudden, everyone has full matrix access.

Why tape that to your hat? Hrm. Really, really long-range drone control?

I've got nothing here.

-Someone mentioned running a UV node on a commlink. As mentioned in Unwired this requires a system rating of 10 as minimum. And I imagine a great deal of storage space.

-Hee Vee Rifle still needs addressed.

-Full auto grenades still seem wonky. Too give my players a break I always house ruled it +1 damage per additional grenade and +1 meter to base blast radius per grenade used. This keeps them deadly, increases there effect and gives the players a chance to survive as long as there not trapped indoors.

I did. Storage is handwaved anyway and not even mentioned in Unwired as UV requirement anyway.
But with War!, you can upgrade any comlink or nexus to Response 10 & System 10, thus qualifying for an UV node.

Usually if you're a shadow runner the other guys were there first. So they can punch out a jammer and suddenly you have no way to talking to the rest of the team, while they can resort to using a telephone. It's a funny mental image to have the security team co-ordinate by grabbing the phone off the closest wage slaves desk, but there you go. The satellite uplink is, if I remember correctly 500 yens, so it's a steal at twice the price, given that twice the price is still cheaper than buying signal 6 for your commlink and this way you get signal 8. Nor is it obvious or anything so go crazy.

The taping it to your hat line is a joke - usually I say stick it in your pants for guns, grenades or whatever, but it doesn't make any sense in context of a satellite uplink. Which doesn't even obviously need a dish, so hey, maybe you can stick it in your pants.