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hobgoblin

Dec 28 2010, 06:19 PM

QUOTE (otakusensei @ Dec 28 2010, 05:29 PM)

Right. Because Lofwyr and Dunkie where such close homies that Goldmaster would want to give his departed buddy a shout out.

There was a certain degree of respect between them. They had differing opinions on how to achieve some goals, but they where quite able to agree to disagree.

and hell, how long had they been passing that fruitcake back and forth each holiday season?

Draco18s

Dec 28 2010, 06:25 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 28 2010, 01:19 PM)

and hell, how long had they been passing that fruitcake back and forth each holiday season?

That was Alamais.

hobgoblin

Dec 28 2010, 06:28 PM

QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 28 2010, 06:37 PM)

I don't believe you ever will, either. I seem to recall that the Japanese are forbidden from manufacturing such military hardware - or forbade themselves from same. After all, they don't even have a standing military, their SDF's are considered police.

Well the SR japan is basically a cross between 80s japan and WW2 japans, so...

hobgoblin

Dec 28 2010, 06:30 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 28 2010, 07:25 PM)

That was Alamais.

Hmm, i really need to do a error check on my brain...

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 06:50 PM

QUOTE

To put it in broaderer terms I think it's a Zune and not a first gen Red Ring Xbox360. I know people who like their Zune and get use out of it.

To go with this analogy, for me, it's a chinese knockoff of a PS1 that came in the shell of an Xbox360. Sure, it won't burn out on you if you leave it running for two hours straight and don't put it into the fridge, but I expected and paid for a 360, not a PS1, and I feel cheated because packaging and advertising promised this would be an Xbox 360. All the developers telling me it's still good for PS1 games won't help me playing Mass Effect with it. This is known as plagiarism and not a sound business strategy, unless you're a mafia outfit in some Italian shanty town that specialises in product fraud.

I paid for a revisited Fields of Fire. I got a badly written Target: Bogotá, A list of 'global hotspots' that not only have nothing to do with a mercenary campaign but also have a disgusting racist undertone, and a gear and rules section that has to be almost entirely houseruled, errataed or rewritten. To add insult to injury the text is riddled with spelling, layout, and content errors in regards to any previous products. You don't have to agree, but that is not what I paid money for.

QUOTE

Now in regards to Missions quality, naturally as I work on missions and like to be involved in them as much as possible I think they are pretty good, especially given that our production cycle is to put it bluntly, brutal, and I have been one of the strongest critics of how we do operations internally and externally. Have there been flaws, sure, New York saw three campaign admins over the course of it's life, and that showed in both the release schedule and internal consistency including mission pay and the affiliation rewards/missions. But on the whole I think if you enjoy playing Shadowrun, enjoy the social and persistent aspects of "living" campaigns, or just want some pre-built stuff to either run out of the box or use as a resource missions are a gold mine and well worth the extremely nominal cost.

Aside from quality of the writing, I was also interested in quality of editing and layout, and spelling. Do you spellcheck missions? Do you playtest them?

KarmaInferno

Dec 28 2010, 07:14 PM

QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Dec 28 2010, 01:10 PM)

As Bull covered in another thread, War will be in, warts and all, optional rules are as always not allowed, the gear will be in but most of the really bad stuff has prohibitively high availability ratings.

I would question that, as it's silly easy to get uber-social skills in Shadowrun and Availability keys off them.

My face character is NOT the most Negotiation-focused character out there in SRM-land, and even she can hit an Availability 102. Without Edge. With the really low nuyen price attached to a lot of that gear, it means that it'll take at most 2-3 Missions to acquire them.

-k

Saint Sithney

Dec 28 2010, 07:44 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 28 2010, 08:01 AM)

Hey, I have some ideas too:

- The CAS Naval Systems Uncle Tom class merchant liner
- The NeoNET McVeigh MLRM vehicle
- The New York class suicide attack plane (a larger version of the Arsenal missile drone)
- The Ares Abu Ghureib class luxury cruise liner.

Isnt't hat just funny?!

The USA already names its current weapons after its former victims.
Or have you never heard of the Apache, Black Hawk or Chinook helicopters?

sabs

Dec 28 2010, 07:50 PM

Indians are cool

Don't forget the
RAH-66 Comanche
It's not so much about people they've defeated as.
Indian names are cool!

otakusensei

Dec 28 2010, 07:52 PM

QUOTE (Aaron @ Dec 28 2010, 12:01 PM)

Yes, Dunkelzahn is a tribute name. We already do that sort of thing today. While I doubt the authorization for the name came from Lofwyr himself, I reckon he's got enough class to allow the tribute to the fallen rival to stand; maybe he's a complete bastard in your game, that's okay.

I expected that a name like "Dunkelzahn" would be treated with more care in a product. Maybe use his name from the forth age, a sort of stealth reference? That's one of the things I feel is missing from the current product line, that level of subtle awareness of the metaplot that made reading Shadowrun and putting the pieces together so interesting. That, and the typos, is why it feels like no one cares anymore. A perfect chance to sneak a little something in, and instead we get a blatant name drop on some gear porn.

sabs

Dec 28 2010, 07:54 PM

Didn't you hear
the Shadowrun Earthdawn cross-over stuff is officially "no longer cool" and they're sprinting away from it with great haste.

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 07:58 PM

Which is why they make the big crossover storyline into DragonballZrun.

Nath

Dec 28 2010, 08:17 PM

QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 28 2010, 04:55 PM)

Foque: means nothing
Foc : is a type of Sail
Phoque: Seal

"foque" is actually a possible, if dated, spelling for "foc".

QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 28 2010, 05:01 PM)

Yes, it's the company. ESPRIT Industries is a creature of SR France and basically a number of French aeronautics and weapons companies rolled into one and given a cool name. And given the naming convention in France this probably needs to be revised too ...

Esprit Industries actually first appeared in Fields of Fire, as the manufacturer if the military grade armor. As the only French corporation mentioned in Shadowrun for some time (along with French-Italian Renault-Fiat), French sourcebook France and Shadows of Europe expanded over that single mention. SOTA:2063 already mentioned an Esprit Phoque assault hovercraft, which is likely to be the same vehicle.

The current naming convention in the French Army is acronym, with the occasional attempt of a double meaning (like the CAESAR, camion équipe d'un système d'artillerie, "truck equipped with an artillery system). Only helicopters have a special naming convention with felid names (Lynx, Puma, Cougar, Tigre), and missiles and airplanes who have no convention at all.

QUOTE (Sengir @ Dec 28 2010, 01:46 PM)

-- Dunkelzahn. For a S-K product. No comment.

I guess no people at CGL has ever read Earthdawn sourcebook Dragons and that part about how names are important to dragons...

Draco18s

Dec 28 2010, 08:20 PM

QUOTE (Nath @ Dec 28 2010, 03:17 PM)

I guess no people at CGL has ever read Earthdawn sourcebook Dragons and that part about how names are important to dragons...

Remember also that "Dunkelzahn" isn't his actual name. Wasn't in Earthdawn either.

Nath

Dec 28 2010, 08:25 PM

QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Dec 28 2010, 08:14 PM)

That's one of the reason why the 20th Anniversary edition suggests to apply a cumulative -1 modifier on extended rolls.

sabs

Dec 28 2010, 08:30 PM

QUOTE (Nath @ Dec 28 2010, 09:25 PM)

That's one of the reason why the 20th Anniversary edition suggests to apply a cumulative -1 modifier on extended rolls.

unfortunately that rule means that it's physically impossible to ever ever make a Rating 6 SiN

Draco18s

Dec 28 2010, 08:41 PM

QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 28 2010, 03:30 PM)

unfortunately that rule means that it's physically impossible to ever ever make a Rating 6 SiN

Or code complex programs (rating 6+ with options, or a new OS/Firewall)

Adarael

Dec 28 2010, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Dec 28 2010, 10:10 AM)

I know people who like their Zune and get use out of it.

Guilty as charged.

Zune, the software, is *much* better than iTunes, especially with the zunepass. 2nd gen Zune hardware is very good, on par with iPods, though functionally identical. ZuneHD's interface is far superior to iTouch/iPhone software.

/plug

Nath

Dec 28 2010, 08:47 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 28 2010, 09:20 PM)

Remember also that "Dunkelzahn" isn't his actual name. Wasn't in Earthdawn either.

QUOTE

Dragons, page 18
ON THE IMPORTANCE OF NAMES
Anyone in Barsaive knows hat Names are important. The ability yo Name and use Names is wahat make us Name-givers, after all. For dragons, Names are particularly important. Since we Name ourselves, rather than being Named by our parents or guardians, we understand the power and value Names have. To know something's Name is power, to Name something is an even greater power.
Dragons have many Names. For example, I am Vasdenjas. I am also the Master of Secrets, the Terrible, the Eater of Cities, the Master of Mount Wyrmspire, and many other things. Those Names all describe me and who I am. Some are more accurate than others, perhaps, but all of them are mine. As a dragon goes through life, he accumulates Names. The more Names a dragon has, the older and more powerful he tends to be.
Because we has and use do many Names, we dragons also have rules and rituals about which Names we use in which situations. For example, another dragon-hatchling, adolescent, adult or event great-does not address a great dragon by his chosen Name. Such is considered a grave insult. Dragons address great dragon by other Names to show their respect. We great dragons even use these other Names when speaking of a great dragon to other name-givers. To do otherwise is considered as the thing as addressing a great dragon by his chosen Name. Conversely other Name-givers must address us by our chosen Name or a proper title since to use the same Name that other dragons do in addressing us would be to suggest an equality with other dragons, a breech of etiquette that could get someone eaten.

But this is nitpicking. Though that would be sure appreciated, I don't believe perfect knowledge of Earthdawn should still be a requirement for SR author.

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 08:47 PM

QUOTE

unfortunately that rule means that it's physically impossible to ever ever make a Rating 6 SiN

Even if you teamwork with an agent?

Nath

Dec 28 2010, 08:52 PM

QUOTE (Nath @ Dec 28 2010, 09:25 PM)

That's one of the reason why the 20th Anniversary edition suggests to apply a cumulative -1 modifier on extended rolls.

QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 28 2010, 09:30 PM)

unfortunately that rule means that it's physically impossible to ever ever make a Rating 6 SiN

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 28 2010, 09:41 PM)

Or code complex programs (rating 6+ with options, or a new OS/Firewall)

It also prevents a bound spirit of average force with the Search power to locate any wanted criminal in a few months, no matter where on Earth he is.

Anyway, applying the modifier is only "suggested". The GM may decide on which roll it shold apply, and on which it shouldn't.

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 08:53 PM

Make it a GM choice - the fix to every rules bug in SR4.

Brazilian_Shinobi

Dec 28 2010, 09:02 PM

QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 28 2010, 05:30 PM)

unfortunately that rule means that it's physically impossible to ever ever make a Rating 6 SiN

Not by yourself. That's why you use team work.

Now, about the names of vehicles, after the translation, I really don't see much problem, even the Dunkelzahn...
I mean, let's take a look at brazilian military vehicles. The airplanes usually have a code name, like Embraer 100, etc...
Our current military airplane is the Super Tucano (Tucano = Toucan), I mean, among all the Brazilian birds, including birds of prey, like the Harpy, we are going to call a fighter plane after a bird whose feature is a big yellow beak? COME ON!

Our tanks are named after snakes, we have the Sucuri, Cascavel, Urutu, etc. (Trivia, the Cascavel was used by the Iraqi Army during the 90's conflict, they had the brilliant idea of burying the tanks instead of using its high maneuver and speed).

Finally, brazilian ships are named after states and cities, with few exceptions.

QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 28 2010, 05:47 PM)

Even if you teamwork with an agent?

Agents can't have Software anymore.

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 09:19 PM

Awww. Really? The Program-o-tron was such a nice way to get yourself a luxury lifestyle.

Sengir

Dec 28 2010, 09:21 PM

QUOTE (otakusensei @ Dec 28 2010, 08:52 PM)

I expected that a name like "Dunkelzahn" would be treated with more care in a product. [...] A perfect chance to sneak a little something in, and instead we get a blatant name drop on some gear porn.

I think that sums up my problem with the name quite well. Rules wise, simply say using this name* is one of the gazillion of highly complex dragonic rituals humans don't understand. But it just feels like "hey, we need a cool German-sounding name".

*: I know, he used to be called different. Given that the dragons don't even use sounds, gestures or any other form of human communication as their native language, a dragon's "true" name is porbably limited to dragonkind itself.

And to bring this somewhat back on topic: The rules for the automatic rappelling thing again refer to parachuting rules. Why did we still not get any?

Saint Sithney

Dec 28 2010, 09:22 PM

QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 28 2010, 01:02 PM)

Agents can't have Software anymore.

But Pilots can.

Also, you don't need to code programs and program options at the same time. Code is modular, so you can plug options in later.

otakusensei

Dec 28 2010, 09:26 PM

QUOTE (Nath @ Dec 28 2010, 03:47 PM)

But this is nitpicking. Though that would be sure appreciated, I don't believe perfect knowledge of Earthdawn should still be a requirement for SR author.

Earthdawn is the name given to the game that was made based off the back story to Shadowrun. That means the setting info is Shadowrun, and by extension should at least be in someone's awareness when you're referencing a character that lived in that setting in a product by a company owned by another that lived in that setting.

You can't cherry pick setting material. Either it's canon and you deal with it (Ryan "Wish-Fulfillment" Mercury) or do something else. And if you do choose to work setting material you should work first to make sure it fits, because if it doesn't you need to find something else. Sandwiches are delicious snacks, but make lousy hammers. I would not suggest the "tooled steel on rye" to bridge this gap.

sabs

Dec 28 2010, 09:28 PM

The Treshhold for a rating 6 SiN is 192.

Dp: Forgery+Edit+stuff
Forgery 7
Edit 6
Specialty +2
Encephalon +1
PuSheD +1
Teamwork Bonus 7
Custom Interface +1
Optimized: edit +1

26 dice, 7 edge.
DP 33, with exploding 6s
If you roll decently that's 14 hits. Only 178 to go, but now you have 32 dice.

I suspect it's still basically impossible to make a rating 6 SiN given the RAW.

otakusensei

Dec 28 2010, 09:29 PM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Dec 28 2010, 04:21 PM)

And to bring this somewhat back on topic: The rules for the automatic rappelling thing again refer to parachuting rules. Why did we still not get any?

Just use a grapple gun for half the price. I'm sure it has a "reverse" setting.

Nath

Dec 28 2010, 10:01 PM

QUOTE (Aaron @ Dec 28 2010, 06:01 PM)

[*]Yes, Dunkelzahn is a tribute name. We already do that sort of thing today. While I doubt the authorization for the name came from Lofwyr himself, I reckon he's got enough class to allow the tribute to the fallen rival to stand; maybe he's a complete bastard in your game, that's okay.

As a president of the union, even for a few hours, Dunkelzahn could have gotten an aircraft carrier, or even an entire class, named after him (or an attack submarine, had he qualified in, like Jimmy Carter).

sabs

Dec 28 2010, 10:03 PM

I need to read the rules they put in for monofilament grenades.

I can think of several ways of making such things and having them be very frightening. But I'm not sure what they did with them.

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 10:11 PM

They made them instant money.

Draco18s

Dec 28 2010, 10:14 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 28 2010, 05:11 PM)

They made them instant money.

Do explain.
Unless they are somehow either:
a) Filled with gold coins worth more than it took to buy the grenade
or
b) Summon a Meowth to use Coin Throw
I'm not seeing the connection.

Tzeentch

Dec 28 2010, 10:16 PM

-- The equipment names are probably less important than other issues

-- Monofilament grenades are a so-so upgrade over high-explosive grenades (SR4A, p. 325) with a much higher availability and cost. Lower power, better AP.

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 10:17 PM

QUOTE

a) Filled with gold coins worth more than it took to buy the grenade

They did. Meters upon meters of monofilament wire. For some 1000 nuyen.

Tzeentch

Dec 28 2010, 10:17 PM

-- Anyone care to run the numbers with me for the Aztechnology Cuanmitztli Main Battle Tank vs main guns?

Draco18s

Dec 28 2010, 10:24 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 28 2010, 05:17 PM)

They did. Meters upon meters of monofilament wire. For some 1000 nuyen.

Ah ha. So if you were inclined to pick up the pieces (or dissect the grenade) you could then sell the monowire for more than it took to buy the grenade...

(Or as my GM says:
Cogdissident: wait, how the heck would that work?
Cogdissident: they'd have to be anchored to various parts of the grenade casing on the outside
Cogdissident: monofilament isn't dangerous since it can't have a lot of anchor points. unattached monofilament is no more dangerous than cobwebs
Cogdissident: you can throw a big handful of monofilament at someone and it won't harm them
Cogdissident: unless it is pulled "through" them with some weight
Cogdissident: and being tiny near-microscopic lines to begin with, they can't carry enough force)

Adarael

Dec 28 2010, 10:26 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 28 2010, 02:17 PM)

They did. Meters upon meters of monofilament wire. For some 1000 nuyen.

Assuming you can open the grenade, unravel the monofilament wire and use it as "meters and meters" of the stuff, with the same rules as monofilament wire-as-standard, which there's no indication you can. Just because it is made of the same material doesn't mean it's the same net product when disassembled. And, I should note, there were already complaints about being able to do that with all other types of grenades, selling the explosives inside.

There are many valid complaints about many things in Shadowrun, but this isn't one; this is like complaining about being able to break down your coffee pot and sell its parts as a cheap commlink, because coffeepots don't have a device rating and therefore default to a rating 3, internet-capable machine. It's a problem only if you imagine it to be one.

Draco: It could be studded with weights every meter or so, so the charge propels the weights outward?

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 10:30 PM

QUOTE

There are many valid complaints about many things in Shadowrun, but this isn't one; this is like complaining about being able to break down your coffee pot and sell its parts as a cheap commlink, because coffeepots don't have a device rating and therefore default to a rating 3, internet-capable machine.

It's more like if you would buy a focus for cheap, melt it and sell the Orichalcum for three times it's value. Aaron just apparently ignored the fact that monofiber is expensive. Stats-wise, though, this is not a dire problem.

Saint Sithney

Dec 28 2010, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 28 2010, 02:24 PM)

Ah ha. So if you were inclined to pick up the pieces (or dissect the grenade) you could then sell the monowire for more than it took to buy the grenade...

If I remember correctly, it is described as having "hundreds of meters of monowire" inside it and it costs 150¥.
Meanwhile, monowire costs 1000¥ per meter.

So 150¥ and a wrench nets you 100,000¥ worth of monowire. Actually more, since "hundreds" is plural.

It might also do to mention that monowire and microwire have the same 8P damage effects, while monowire is 10F 1,000¥/m compared to 4(fully legal) 50¥/100m for microwire. Though, I suppose microwire never mentions any AP effects..

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 10:31 PM

QUOTE

-- Anyone care to run the numbers with me for the Aztechnology Cuanmitztli Main Battle Tank vs main guns?

Uhm ... Sengir did on a German Forum, IIRC ...? Sengir?

Kagetenshi

Dec 28 2010, 10:33 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 28 2010, 05:11 PM)

They made them instant money.

The survival knife lives!

Although this one's actually better, as your margins on the survival knife were pretty slim.

~J

Adarael

Dec 28 2010, 10:35 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 28 2010, 02:30 PM)

The monofiber that is statted out and is useful as fiber alone is expensive. That does not mean THIS class of monofiber is expensive. It could be a lesser grade, with a wider molecular width, because Shadowrun monofiber has never been truly monomolecular. If it's lesser quality, and is unlikely to damage anyone unless propelled out of a grenade, then it'll probably be cheaper. It's like assuming all grades of steel are the same simply because they're called "Steel". I see no reason that all monowire be the same quality, and so the monowire in these grenades need not be as expensive as standard monowire. And therefore, also, cannot merely be unspooled and used the same way.

Edit: Kagetenshi, thank you. The surivival knife is what I was remembering, not grenades.

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 10:40 PM

QUOTE

It's like assuming all grades of steel are the same simply because they're called "Steel". I see no reason that all monowire be the same quality, and so the monowire in these grenades need not be as expensive as standard monowire. And therefore, also, cannot merely be unspooled and used the same way.

If so, it would be really wise for the rules writer to say so.

Adarael

Dec 28 2010, 10:49 PM

Why? Did they say you can't melt down force 1, reach 0 weapon foci and make money? Did they say you can't sell the explosives in high-explosive grenades as generic high explosives and make money? Did they say you can't break down your toaster and sell it as a rating 3 commlink, or take the rating 3 control program out of it and sell it for a profit? Did they tell you that you can't start with a free spirit as a contact who has the wealth power, who just sits around generating money for you all day? No.

hermit

Dec 28 2010, 10:52 PM

No. Because that works.

But you're saying you can't do this with monowire grenades, because there is no reason why this should not work, too.

Adarael

Dec 28 2010, 10:57 PM

What I'm saying with these examples is that they only work if the GM allows them to work. For instance, there's no indication you CAN melt down a weapon focus and extract anything meaningful out of it, any more than I can give back my breakfast in any kind of coherent form. There's no indication the high explosives in an HE grenade are the same explosives listed in the main book and cost anything comparable. There's nothing indicating you can break down your toaster and extract generic programs from it, rather than hard chips with the "brew coffee" program in them. And there's nothing indicating a character can start with a free spirit with the wealth power as a contact.

The only thing allowing or disallowing any of these is a GM ruling or opinion. Same with monowire.

Edit: Let me put it another way. Where are the rules that say you can even unspool the monowire and use it? Or hell, even open the grenade at all?

Saint Sithney

Dec 28 2010, 11:15 PM

Actually they tell you the exact power of the explosives in grenades and microgrenades (Arsenal p90,) just not the weight.

Also, rules concerning breaking down a hand grenade:

Build = Bomb or Hand Grenade - Demolitions + Logic - 8 - 5 minutes
So, by the build/repair rules breakdown takes half the threshold with the same period.

Ta-da! Now you know it's RAW legal, so the only weak argument you have left for this gross oversite is the "Well, maybe it's shitty single-ply monowire instead of the good quilted stuff," that neglects the fact that there already is a name for that in the books.

The whole million-dollar grenade problem could have been a total non-issue if it just said microwire instead of monowire.

Adarael

Dec 28 2010, 11:18 PM

They tell you the exact power of the grenades and microgrenades, yes. But not the composition of the explosives, or if they retain that power outside of their casings. So you can't make any assumptions about if a 10p hand grenade is made up of the same moldable substance as C12.

Smokeskin

Dec 28 2010, 11:51 PM

High Powered ammo is underpowered. At +2DV and -2 dice to hit, even if you discount the risk of missing altogether or glitching, it does the same expected damage as APDS or Ex-Ex rounds. But it has an increased risk of missing and glitching, and it requires a special chambering. It is just plain stupid.

Saint Sithney

Dec 28 2010, 11:52 PM

Here, let me fix this:

QUOTE

Microfilament Grenade: This grenade is similar to a
fragmentation grenade. Rather that a fragmenting shell, however,
it is built with hundreds of meters of microwire wound
around the exploding core, lashing out in several pieces and all
directions on detonation. Damage from a microfilament grenade
is resisted with Impact armor.

Stats and pricing remain the same. All controversy disappears.

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