Good solution.

No it doesn't?
+1DV -1AP is not the same as +2DV -1AP -2DP. Nor is -4AP. They are similar, but not as good as HP ammo when a character has the training to use it effectively. It's not leaps and bounds, but it is better.

That need for training is the rub, though. If an HP AR, the HK G12A4m, is the standard issue firearm of every military ever, then their troops must miss like crazy with their adjusted DP of 5.

Meanwhile, a gunbunny can take that -2 DP penalty and stack another -4 dice from a called shot for damage and still hit, generating a 12DV -2AP shot, potentially with autofire damage on top.

HP up a Barret and you've got dudes shootin holes straight through heavy armor. 11p -5ap base means you'd essentially be using heavy autocannon rounds... which is pretty awesome..

I'll rephrase.

My character is hardly the most Negotiate-optimized character out there, and she can hit an 102 Availability WITH THE -1 CUMULATIVE MODIFIER AND THE FORCED 4:1 BUY RULES.

Even an absolutely average runner can hit 24 Availability or so with just a couple of select pieces of skill-boosting gear.

I reiterate that due to how easy it is to boost Negotiate, the "prohibitively high Availability" maybe isn't so prohibitive.




-k

Yeah, that must be an error. Adarael's fix of moving to per 100 m is consistent with the Thor shot and gets the right results.


As written, that is pretty hot, yes. I'm guessing the notion was to make it trivial for any grunt to spot mines without anything more fancy than somewhat upgraded goggles. Two options to fix this I can think of. 1) Go for shallow depth penetration, maybe 20 cm. 2) Change from chemical reaction to RFID. I prefer the latter.


Agreed. The rules are also quite odd compared to everything else in SR4. I would drop this and go with Nanite hunters that target Mine Detectors.


An understandable quibble. There's a few botched details in the naval ship descriptions. The Colombo cargo ship being described as the "largest of its type" only makes sense if you assume they mean "Panamax" when they say type. The Shibanokuji aircraft carrier is probably based on modern supercarriers, which definitely do not dwarf existing cargo ships. The notion that the Shibanokuji would dwarf 2070 cargo ships is ludicrous.


Actually, given the ranges listed in War!, they're talking about intercontinental cruise missiles that are too big for most aircraft to carry. Three options: 1) Make these ones typical cruise missiles by dividing their ranges by 10 and allowing aircraft to carry them on reinforced weapon mounts, 2) Label these missiles as ICCMs and create a separate category of cruise missiles that are more portable, or 3) Bump up the speed substantially and make these ICBMs.

Speaking of aircraft, the rules for Launch Weapons from Arsenal remain unfixed. Seeing as how they went with huge piles of external weapon mounts on the aircraft in War!, I'm guessing the simplest option is to errata at least 12 external weapon mounts onto the Strike Eagle so it's not a joke.


I can see two reasons for it. The first is that as a separate vehicle, it allows for more customization and more survivability for the occupant. You could use it as a tricked out command module for a rigger for instance; one that can break away from the blowed up T-Bird on its own. The other reason is that it allows for rapid simultaneous deployment of multiple troops, though given the slot cost, this only works for the Tenshi which already has 8 of these contraptions. Also note that this gives the Tenshi about 76 modification slots, though most modifications won't carry over across the whole conglomeration.


I would assume the other way. That it only duplicates an unencrypted designation signal. Easily spoofed, but also much easier to sneak a designator in somewhere.

I would love to see how you hit these dice so easily. I made a rigger character and I realized it will take forever to get my gear. You can PM me the info since I don't want to derail this thread to much.

I'm officially seriously unhappy about Military grade software and matrix hardware being BETTER than Corporate stuff.
It shows a fundemental misunderstanding of Shadowrun.

Don't the corps make most of the military gear anyway? Why couldn't they have the same stuff?

-- The milspec = godly aspect has been hanging around since Shadowrun, First Edition. It didn't make a terrible lot of sense back then except that the governments presumably just threw money down a hole on this gear while corporations were all about cost-cutting and the bottom line. Makes sense for things like vehicles, but less so when it comes to communications security and such, when the only cost to the corporation is maybe training time or licensing fees they pay to themselves most of the time.

The biggest problems CGL has right now are

A) A refusal to issue errata or clarifications for their products. Seriously, Karmagen has been an issue for how long? Changes have been incorproated into the new print edition and you STILL haven't posted an errata? What the hell? Stuff like battle rifles not having a skill should already be in the FAQ.

People don't mind if there are issues, but you need to move swiftly to fix them. CGL has not been fast on fixing things. Or even slow. more.. immobile.

B) They should apologize for the Jewish ghost killing thing, and that entire chapter being in bad taste.

I don't care if this chapter was meant to be not in bad taste, the fact of the matter is that.. it is.

Ok, Lets see...
33 Dice= 8 Successes
32 Dice = 8 Successes
31 Dice = 7 Successes
30 Dice = 7 Successes
29 Dice = 7 Successes
28 Dice = 7 Successes
...
8 Dice = 2 Successes
7 Dice = 1 Success
6 Dice = 1 Success
5 Dice = 1 Success
4 Dice = 1 Success

So, Using your Dice Pool as a Start...
That equals 128 Successes on a FORCED 4:1, No Rerolled 6's, Automaitc Successes Rule...
With Average Rolls (3:1), it gets even better... 187 Successes, Still no 6's Rerolled...

So, by my math, not Impossible at all... I am quite sure that a Rating 6 Sin is doable, even with the decrementing Dice Pools Optional Rule. After all, with average Rolls, you only need an additional 5 Hits to complete the Task...

And of course, if you do not use the decrementing Dice Pool Optional Rule, it only takes about 24 Rolls to get there... Entirely doable in my opinion.

except you don't have 33 points of edge
with 26 dice and 3 dice per hit, you only get 116

Also, who (note the minimum of 2 people, due to teamwork) would spend these 30ish intervals?
Doable as in "a runner with sufficient reserves. Could potentially do this on a somewhat reliable bases, given an impractical ammount of time?" Or doable as in "making these could actually support a team of black market SIN salesmen to have a high enough Lifestyle to pay for their equipment, and thus make their listed availability even remotely credible?"

Or perhaps doable by using Edge to force a critical succes on a rush job?

True, Missed that you were Using Edge within the Dice Pool Calculation.

But by Simply using a Higher Rated Edit Program (with Optimization of course) you can circumvent that a bit... Rating 10 Edit, and a location (shop, workspace, whatever) that has been sculpted through Feng Shui (Advanced Lifestyle Bonus), you are right back to that 33 Dice, with no expenditure of Edge... and lets not forget that a group capable of manufacturing Fake SIN's would also likely net a Tools Bonus of +2 for a Shop, or +4 for a Facility (as you need neither for the Actual creation of a SIN, you would likely benefit from exceptional tools)...

So, even if you keep the Rating 6 Edit, I still see an additional +5 to +7 Dice that may be applied to the rolls. so you are looking at 31-33 Dice, with Edge to fall back on (Whether it be Edge of 1 or 7)... It is not as hard as you are making it out to be in my opinion. Does it take a specialized group to Create SIN's? Most definitely... Are they going to be prolific? Most Definitely, For the Mid Range SIN's (Rated 3-4), ... The High End Forgers (Rating 5-6) will be a bit rarer, but that is how it is in the Real World as well...

With an interval of 1 week. you're talking 9 months per rating 6 sin.
9 months of work, for a team .. that good.. for 6nuyen?

that's less than 1000 nuyen a month. That's LOW lifestyle.

Barely enough to keep the teams nutrient drips running, let alone pay for legal/degrading software, and physical security, which they'd want to have. Still, good luck convincing any Pro-rating NPC this is a good way to spend their time.

Not to mention the other guys from the teamwork test. Still, this can be done better.

Edit 12 +7 Forgery +7 teamwork +3 Nanites +2 specilization +2 codeslinger +1 PuSHeD +1 encephalon +1 optimization should give you a DP of 36. Edge reroll each week and you're looking at an effective DP of 50.

Still a shit way to make a living, but you'll get the job done before the sun goes nova at least.

Still talking about diving up 1k a month to a team of at least two, given the second also has a pool of at least 21. Assuming that nets him 7 successes reliably.

You haven't yet mentioned threading, and adept powers yet though. I'm pretty sure those can add some onto the pool.

Likely redundant at this time, but am i the only one here that remembers that survival knife that came with a trauma patch that would cost more on its own then the whole knife package?

And was there not some drones at one point that came with pre-packaged weapons that would cost more then the drone?

SR have a history if these things, going as far back as (holy) FASA...

Kagetenshi mentioned it somewhere, I think. Someone did, at any rate, yeah. I never tried to exploit it to make money (like a cheat in a video game or something), but I still almost always bought a survival knife for every character, just 'cause they seemed so damned handy.

And it was reduced to almost sensible levels with SR4, Arsenal and Unwired. Meh.

Yes, that is what I meant. It fits well with the base rules which is the important part to me. It may have thrown off some of the example systems in other books, but even in Unwired there were example systems with ratings 7+. The costs and availability is consistent, but the one thing I think they screwed up in this regard was in the fluff and the grunts' gear - distributing that high end stuff at too low a level. Rating 6 should remain the cutting edge for the rank and file. Rating 7+ is only what you break out for your crazy elite specialists that already have vast piles of nuyen dumped into their training and the rest of their gear.

Just because an item has a price and availability doesn't mean a GM has to allow it for the PCs or make it common for the NPCs. It just gives the GM rules to work with in deciding whether to allow it and what it takes to bring it into the game. I also like having rules for things like Deltaware and autocannons. Those probably won't come up in most campaigns, but for some it will. And in such a campaign, having rules for the matrix side to move up is a welcome addition.



I rather like the option of an extra 2 AP for heavier weapons, but I can understand people thinking it's excessive relative to existing ammo. The Sniper Rifle inclusion makes sense though. Battle rifles are 7P -1 AP, which is the same as Sports Rifles, and that's probably ~7.62 rounds. Sniper Rifles are something larger since they start at 7P -3 AP and go to 9P -4 AP, which to me suggests they are in the .338 Lapau Magnum to .50 BMG range. The Barrett Model 121, for instance, is almost certainly a reference to the Light Fifty. The Desert Strike is probably a playful reference to the Arctic Warfare Magnum. Those are large-bore weapons.


Agreed. Since armor is basically ubiquitous in SR, I've always wondered about the utility of ammo that gives +5 AP, so I like the concept of AP flechette but the complete elimination of that AP modifier may be excessive. I'd be inclined to say bump the AP to +2, but I have a weak commitment to that position.


Part of me likes this software for fluff reasons, but it seems to exist too much in isolation. I'd say shelve it until there are some more rules or even just fluff about satellite and aerial reconnaissance (which I really feel like was missing from War!).


No minimum thickness is mentioned, but all the application examples talk about 1 m thickness so that seems like a reasonable minimum to get that effect. Those same rules lawyers could always argue about welding structural steel to the exterior of vehicles. Both options are either irrelevant (vehicles have hard armor caps in Arsenal) or lead to great room for hilarity on the part of the GM, especially for the barrier foam which is explicitly hard to shape or control. "Door's been sealed shut. Use the window."


That's a bit over waist high. What's the problem?


Possibly, but if the effect is drug based then addiction rules apply. If its something else related to the dressing, then it would only apply to the wound in question. There's room for clarification in this to balance it out.


What's nonsensical about the rules? The only real function of ship size in the stats is the length, not structure, so making the damage proportional to the length is reasonable. At least that's my first take on it. Break it down for me if you disagree.

Again: MapSofts already do that, TacSofts even more so. (Added benefit: Both feature actual rules to use them…)

Every unit will run a TacSoft and even the lowliest guerrilla will use MapSofts.

Yeah. Adding half damage makes sense for a few grenades going off near each other, but when you start talking FA grenade launchers the numbers get wonky. Simply using the same +1 per round rule as other weapons is probably the safest option.


Knock yourself out.


Since ECCM is on the software side in SR4 that doesn't bother me a lot, but they still should have mentioned it for some of the vehicles to be consistent with the standard ECCM and Autosoft listings of Arsenal.

My first thought regarding the High Powered ammo was, "Hey, NPC ammo!" The restrictions do make it questionable for most PC uses. You give up a lot of versatility in terms of mod slots, ammo types, and dice pool to play with for not a lot of value coming back. My friend actually misread the rules and came up with a decent variation on the recoil modifier. Just double uncompensated recoil. I rather like that variation.


What about it needs to be addressed? Please be specific. The first thing that came to my mind was that it's an HV weapon that lacks FA capacity, thus rendering that HV component completely irrelevant. That's a definite goof. I'm thinking making it SA/BF/FA is necessary to be reasonable. Or was there something else you had in mind?

-- Note that flechette weapons are resisted by Impact, which is almost always 1-2 points lower than Ballistic even before you apply the +2 Power for flechettes. However, this ends up making them sort of crappy APDS in the end for most applications so it might all balance out.

-- My envelope calculations put the density of this stuff in the realm of aerogels. That's a bit amusing.
-- Armor foam as access denial ("Foam the doors and the truck wheels!") might also be a good tactic.

-- Just seems odd. Couldn't it leave an access gap?
-- Throwing these out on the highway would also be hilarious

-- Compartmentalization is nonexistant. Repair times are extremely fast.

Because using a standard issue mook-agent, and having it operate the best global jammer money can buy -getting the drop on anyone not having a 6+ Signal device. Which would include everyone who thinks the S 10 'link they nabbed off their enemys corpse was the likely reason for his brain being fried. Over his speedballing combat drugs. And everyone else not using the insane numbercreep new Milspec stuff - shouldn't be a standard MO in most militarily, how?

Agents don't have Electronic Warfare. They can't even Decrypt.

p. 168 Aztechnology Cuanmitztli Main Battle Tank
* Suggest reducing the crew to three, down from five (!).
* Update standard equipment to bring it in line with Arsenal writeups. New entry would be something like:

Aztechnology Cuanmitztli Main Battle Tank: The current king of heavy metal firepower. The Cuanmitztli and its competitors are available with several armaments packages to meet the demands of even the most budget conscious warlord. Very little can stand up to a Cuanmitztli on the battlefield . . . except another Cuanmitztli. Crew consists of a driver, gunner and commander.
Similar Models: Ruhrmetall Leopard IV, Saeder-Krupp Sigurd III
Standard Upgrades: Armor (smart), 3 ammo bins (one for each weapon mount), small drone rack, gyro link, improved sensor array, life support (Level 1), missile defense system, rigger adaptation, signature masking (Rating 2), smoke projector, tracked vehicle, weapon mount (heavy turret, armored manual, remote), weapon mount (reinforced, external, turret, remote), 2 weapon mounts (reinforced, external, flexible, remote), ECM 4, ECCM 4.

Here's the thing.

I agree with you about government MilTech. It's often just average, and often below the quality of privately obtainable gear.

But this is ShadowRun. We aren't just talking about government. We have Corporate militaries as well. Which unlike government militaries, are often structured to turn a profit instead of being an expense.

Think of current day private military companies. You see their troops in battlezones all over the world, and they're often equipped with the best state of the art bang-bangs and gear that money can buy. The money is so good there that actual government militaries lose a good chunk of their troops to them. Those soldiers seeing the PMC boys, doing the same jobs they are, only with considerably better money and benefits, are often tempted to sign on with the PMCs when their tour of duty is up.

THAT is the default state of "miltech" in the SR universe. So it's not entirely out of question to assume that by then, MilTech often really IS better.



-k

Corporate MilSpec SHOULD be top of the Line.

Ares Valkyries, Renraku Red Samurai, S&K's Storm troopers..
Those guys should have SotA equipment

Ares Military, High end Merc units, should have 1 step bellow SotA stuff.
Government Military should be on part with average runners in some cases, and bellow par in some others (Aztlan military should be way bellow, Aztech Military should be on par if not better)

But NOONE should have better Matrix/Computer power than ZO. /noone/

I see no reason for Signal >6. Apart from health issues, and weight issues, it just makes no sense. The part where military links really make sense is Firewall, because you do not want to be hacked in war.

Infantrymen are well served with a link of maybe 5/3/5/8. Officers maybe 6/5/7/7. Specops 8/5/8/8. 9 and 10 should be limited to exoperimental stuff or real hardcore government hacker squads/elite terrorist/syndicate hackers.

Well the example rating for ZO don't really make much sense, so this isn't really a valid point.

Do one bring a RPG to a fist fight?

A Ballista?

TBH, ZO's rating should be much like a Great Dragon's - You don't stat God.

It's true.. ZO shouldn't have been stated.

But it was.. and now we're stuck with it.

I obviously made up the name of the S&K guys.. I couldn't remember what it was.. and Storm Trooper was funny.. since Storm Troopers were modeled after the SS Shock Troops, and S&K is a German company.. well okay if you have to explain it.. it probably wasn't funny.

I see it as the closest thing to errata CGL will release: Matrix Ratings now go from 1 to 10. Which is fine, it allows finer granularity, and GMs who can only create challanges by increasing numbers will surely like it.

It does put Hackers closer to on par with the Technomancer rating 12 chicanery.
But I guess that's not really how i hoped they would fix it

That's why I overall approve of this, as one of the few points in War! I do.

And no, it'S not the most elegant fix, but it's better than none.

Yeah, that was me. Not really that exploitable, though, since the trauma patch only costs 50¥ more than the whole knife, meaning that even with a generous assignment of value to the knife itself and the compass, micro-lighter, and night-glow stick you're talking a significant amount of grunt work to extract the extra value. It's still dumb, but you need to get them by the truckload to actually break the game.


You are discriminating against Dwarves! I'm reporting you to Mothers of Metahumans!

~J

Just remember that using the matrix equivalent of a troll cyberzombie dual-wielding assault cannons always generates unwanted attention

Wait is that the Technomancer, or the Hacker using Response 10

Both, pink mohawks suck

So bleeping true.

It would be true, if it wasn't such a blatant lie

Please remember that the only stats we have for Zurich Orbital is for a Terrestrial Ground Station... NO WHERE is ZO actually statted out... Just keep that in mind...

Ugh. I stand corrected. I should fix myself up a sleep regulator before trying posting at that hour.

Main point stands about military would IMHO definitely focus on denial of ranged communications in a lot of cases, if they can get hardware that's essentially immune to it. Skimping on the defense part could bring even a S10 'link to uncomfortably low signal levels.

Then again. I see how a generalized software suite shouldn't be included for specific vehicles. Might be worth adding one, or a few Milspec suites on their own though. "What does Uncle Knight do with hardware that's not Heavy Ordnance?"

Jammers don't reduce Signal. They don't even work as area interdiction anymore. And a Commlink with Response 3, Signal 4 and ECCM 6 (Optimization 3) is enough to beat the best Jammers available.

If I remember correctly, though, Active Jamming works quite well, because it is an OPPOSED TEST, Winner Jams an entire frequency... Of course, the defense to that would be rotating frequencies, but again, they are not all that difficult to jam up again.