That and not bothering to check how shrapnel works. You need force AND mass.




-k

Just force, which is after all velocity times mass.

~J

Acceleration, actually (F=ma).

Momentum is velocity times mass.

Yeah, okay. I only have a college level basic Physics knowledge of the issue, though, and even I know it's got more to it that simply putting wire in an explosion. 10 minutes of actual looking the subject up probably would have gotten me to the right answer.

Which just tells me the author just didn't bother.





-k

imo, AWESOME is always a great reason to bend the laws of RL for a game.

For those that don't buy "awesome" as a good enough reason, maybe re-label it in your game under a new name, just call it a DIME or SDB. Strong damage with a small area of effect. Plus you still get your slice n' dice:
Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_Inert_Metal_Explosive
Global Security: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...itions/dime.htm

Um.



I'm going to go crawl under a rock in shame now.

(But force still incorporates mass, so my point still stands)

~J

All you need, actually, is momentum.
A 10-ton truck moving at 5m/s (roughly 10 miles per hour) has 50*10^3 kg*m/s. Which is a lot in case you ask.
If you have a piece of shrapnel weighting 100 grams, you need it to move at 500 kilometers PER SECOND in order to achieve the same momentum.

How much velocity for something that weighs 0.01 grams?
(Which 1 cm of monowire/microwire likely weighs)

500 km / sec is already stupidly fast (and a 10 mph truck hitting someone in ShadowRun does like 12P, the monofillament grenade does 8P with -4 AP, so very close to the same momentum)

So even if we assume that the grenade accellerates the bits to only 500 km / sec and each "piece" does 1P worth of damage, 500 km/s (i.e. 1,118,468 MPH) means we have a sever suspension of disbelief issue.

At what velocity is air friction so powerful that the monowire bits burn away to nothingness before hitting their target?

Less than a million MPH.

You're also assuming that the intense, close range, exothermic reaction that causes them to fly around didn't vaporize them in the first place.

Yeah, things like that. It sounds like an interesting concept, but laughable from an elementary physics standpoint.

It's like cooking; individually nice ingredients don't always combine into a super-nice dish. SuperAwesomeMonowire and Explosions don't really mix all that well.

That thing should be a low explosion monowire net, that anchors across an area. (it digs into plascreet, wood, etc, ) and creates a 'net'. Anyone walking into it takes zomgzors damage.

In a way they kinda are, Laser designators anyway. its a beam of light that is reflecting off a target, its the sensor end that has some mojo software on it,
`e
~~Edit for continuance
A very well controlled laser spell could do the same thing, but I don' know the difficulty for tuning a combat spell to a specific frequency would be, that and combat spells are instant, not sustainable.

Guys, we are talking about some stuff supposedly produced by tiny insectoid nanobots, which already is the ultimate scientifically impossible handwavium. So the product of a handwavium process requires massive suspension of disbelief? I'm shocked...


For those interested, one of the few summaries whose author actually managed to treat this baloney without getting too enraged in the process: http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/na...anotech-rapture

Production of monowire? No. Using it as shrapnel? Yes.

Come on, people, War! has a lot of poorly thought through things, but criticizing vehicle names and the way handwavium grenades work is all too far into the grognard territory.

You're right, we should have stopped at the lack of introduction or proofing, the poor layout and the ugly design. But while you're raging at the typos you start getting pissed off that the writers didn't seem to understand the game, and eventually you're reading the stats on ships that can each and every one submerge and kill all hands on board. Then you see the names they were given...

It would be a vicious cycle, except that if you keep going you hit the end of the book eventually. But you're still pissed off and disappointed, so you start working from the thing that pissed you off last. What you're seeing here is sort of a backwards catharsis of people dealing with a book that has issues cover to cover. The names and crunch just happen to be in the back and they haven't gotten back to WORK BRINGS FREEDOM again.

Eventually they will be back to the lack of an introduction, but then they will find themselves staring at this book that just disappointed them coming and going. They will leave it where it is and try to go about their lives. But it really couldn't have been that bad, right? Those leadership rules were alright; and wasn't there something else that didn't suck?

So they open the book and notice the lack of an introduction, again...

And yet, NOT everyone experiences it the way you laid it out... Not only did I not react in that manner, I actually liked most of the material in the book itself. Yes, it has issues, but they are not as bad as you paint them, at least for me... Everyone is different.

Some people live in conditions I would never consider safe or sanitary, and they claim to be perfectly happy too. Doesn't mean I shouldn't point out that water damage and the black mold when they put the place up for sale.

I would rather have everything wrong in one 'neat' package, rather than brush this or that off as 'it's not that bad.' I like to think I have a workable alternative to the way the monowire grenades are written, I'm an American uneducated in the languages of the world so I didn't mind the names as much, but if those whose native language is German sit there and go 'lolwut', then I will defer to their opinion. Aaron has already noted there were mistakes made in the naming and defended other names as accurate and intentional, and I defer there as well. Suspension of disbelief is necessary in a game system like this as we hurtle towards the day Ryumyo wakes up on Fuji and goes 'wassup', but when one can look at a product and say "that isn't physically possible by any standard" then one needs to wonder.

The reason this thread exists is because there is crunch that is indicative of writers that Did Not Do The Research (click it, I dare you) or They Just Didn't Care (I double dog dare you). That's just this thread. There are several threads involving this book on this forum and on others that have people that aren't too happy they spent money on a product with this kind of trouble. Everyone expects some kind of bitching when a book goes to the street; that's fine. The amount of warranted bitching on this product, however, exceeds tolerances for a purchase for a decent number of fellows. There are several more threads (and now three projects I have to work on, natch) where they are taking the problems with this book and making their own fixes. alt.War is doing what it can to expand on what's there and actually make a book about War, and further expand it into around five issues now involving different theatres and aspects of warfare such as mercenary work, corporate-sponsored conflict and things of that vein. This thread is trying to take the crunch and make it workable for everyone; working to bring the warranted bitching down to nominal levels. Not necessarily a bad thing at all.

Very True...
I would just like to point out that no one truly has the right to question another's happiness...

And Point Taken, My Apologies...

Wrong, when the happiness of someone else is effecting yourself or others in a negative way you can and should question it.

You say that as if I'm not in half of those threads.
It's just this thread, as I said, slided into grognard grumbling over things too minor compared to all the other... uh... let's say issues with the book; instead of actually discussing the best way to work around, say, the uncompensatable recoil of the new ammo in RAW and such.

Negative is so subjective though...

And again, I say that I'd rather have all the problems people see rather than poo-poohing off suspension of disbelief problems by saying readers are grognarding.

If that was the only problem with the book I'd call it bitching just to bitch - but it certainly isn't.

And what exactly is wrong with being a French Infantry man?
I have several family members who died on the March to Moscow, you insensitive clods!

"Bitching" for three pages about the names instead of suggesting actual mechanical corrections is grumbling for its own sake.

It's an american thing.

Corrections were quickly and repeatedly offered. In many cases, griping is going to be the genesis of productive discourse.

No more than happy.

Maybe, but if I am happy (as an example) and not hurting anyone, what right does someone else have to come and rain on the parade... even if my life could otherwise be better for the intrusion?

Because the mechanism of your happiness makes me unhappy?

At which point you get back to Imposing a set of "beliefs" upon another at their expense, for absolutely no reason but that you want to show your superiority (or whatever)...
See how that goes?

I do. Both ways. Let's talk about sandwiches now.

It's looking like going from bitching just to bitch, to arguing just to argue. Please, give this thread a reason to continue to exist, or it will be locked up and left.

Oy-vey, I just noticed.
War! features such gems in firearm design as AK-147 and AK-147 Carbine.
Minding that Core already has AK-97 and Arsenal has AK-98 and AK-127 (in German version), and that in Russian shortened versions of weapons get the index U (see AKS-74U), I am just appalled by how little research the author did, both into RL basis for what he was writing (47+100? Seriously?) and existing SR material.

Its just a shortened version. Or was originally.
the AKS-74U (U—Ukorochenniy, lit. Shortened),

Whut, this is a complain i really cant understand.
You say that SR has AK:s up to number 127 and your problem is that the newest version in the rifle line is numbered as 147.
Really could you maybe explain whats the problem with that?

No, my complaint is not that they moved to 147 after 127.
My complaint is that the system already has three AK assault rifles, of which 97 is stated to be the most popular assault rifle in the world.
Now, the writers of War!, instead of checking what firearms are in the system already, just go and add 147 (with the most lazy numbering ever, or what, do you think it to be coincidental?), going on about how it's oh-such-a-popular firearm. It's not new IC or SOTA or anything, mind you, it's just there cause someone was too lazy to check if there are statted up AKs already. Thus, the complaint that the writer did not do his research on SR material.
The complaint about not doing the research on RL basis burns down to not using the standard rigid scheme of naming Russian firearms use: carbines get an U after the name or the number. AK-147 Carbine is just AK-147 Carbine, though. Okay, fine, no one can be expected to open wikipedia on the topic he's writing about, so that's a moot point.

Like what happened with the AA-12/AA-16, the authors did not research the original weapons enough to realize that the numerical part of the name IS NOT just a serial number, it's an indicator of something else.

In the case of the AA-12, it's got the "12" because it fires 12-gauge shot-shells. So making the "new" version be named AA-16 makes no sense.

In the case of the AK-47, the "47" is in reference to the year it was first put into production, 1947. Just like the later AK-74 is numbered after the year 1974, the year THAT weapon was put into production.

Shadowrun's fictional "AK-97" is more or less okay, if you assume that in SR it was first introduced in 1997. But I'm not sure the author then actually intended that.

"AK-127" and "AK-147" are just silly.



-k

Nomenclature in military changes all the time. An example would be between WWI and WWII when they changed from naming modifications to weapons as a "Mark" to a "Number". That's how you get weirdly named rifles like the SMLE Mk.III/No.1. It was the Mark III in World War I, and the Number 1 in WWII. There is also the SMLE No. 4, which was the primary production rifle for the British Commonwealth that was streamlined for faster production, and was fitted with different iron sights to make them easier to train with, but weren't as adjustable as the No. 1s sights. (This rifle is still in use by the Canadian Arctic Rangers, BTW.).

IRL, the AK-Series uses a numbering system that is in the Hundreds now (AK-103, I think), rather than year of issue. There's also the AKM, which doesn't even have a number designator.

That said, the AK-97 is almost as iconic a Shadowrun weapon as the Ares Predator. And the new versions of the AK-Family... Well, I cannot comment on as I don't have the book.

But a bit from the Gun Nut Files. Enjoy!

Actually, AK-200 is the new derivative of original 47, and AK-107 and AK-108 are new rifles - they use old AK as a basis, but they've got a new counter-balance operating system to reduce recoil. Actually, they're modified so much that A stands for Alexandrov (their designer), not Avtomat (assault rifle) now in their designation.
And okay, I'm ok with the model number creep, what scrapes on my nerves is both just adding one hundred to the iconic AK number, and adding one more AK assault rifle to the system where there are three already for no reason whatsoever besides not doing their research. Oh, and the whole carbine deal.

The Carbine deal, I'll agree with. Their Carbine was the AKS-74U, which, IIRC, was designed for the Spetsnaz or the Russian Paratroopers. Or both.

As for including another one, it could have just been done in fluff and left at that, commenting that there are various incarnations of the AK-97 on the market... I mean, hell, look at all the knock-offs that have their own name, or even the ones that are designs that are different in everything but the mechanism. But, in the end, an AK is an AK is an AK. And I can hear the AK-Fans gnashing their teeth at me for saying so. But, when it comes to Shadowrun Crunch, it's true.

That said, I still want a Galil in Shadowrun.

And you know this how, AK-147 having identical stats(except for the added RC) to 97 kinda makes me doupt that.
AK-147 is an example new kind of an rifle, completely made by nanofax machines.

What would be cool is if the AK-series had something to set it aside.

like on a crit glitch, you roll edge, and only on another crit-glitch does the weapon actually jam/misfire, etc.

That would represent the 'power' of the AK series.

IIRC, there's some fancy minor quality attached to nanofaxed designs. More reliable or something, because the fax ensures it's been put together free of error. I'll have to check the books, but I remember seeing something.

Because you need to design a firearm from the ground up to be nanoproduced. It's not like the whole premise of nanotechnology is being able to make whatever.
And even if it was a modified AK-97 design, shouldn't that be mentioned in the description? Just in the off chance the writer is aware of 97's existence.

It's surprising just how many negative stereotypes about the French that Americans hold date back to the relatively brief time that American servicemembers were stationed in France after they retook the country from the Germans.

As illustrated (by words) in this pamphlet from the US Government.

And basically the entire "french military incompetence/cowardice" meme is a result of one war where the collaborationist government ordered the military to surrender when it was ready to keep fighting, ignoring the history of the French soldier's almost insane bravery on the battlefield as established in most of the previous 200 or so years. Followed by the nation's populace forming one of the largest armed civilian resistance movements in the face of one of the most brutal occupying forces in the last 200 years, if not history.

It really is fascinating. I mean, it's about as true as sideways asian vaginas, but it just keeps persisting, when there are so many far more valid and accurate reasons to make fun of the French (as there are with any nationality).