War! Gear & Rules, What's good, iffy, needs fixing or a complete revamp? Options

[Adarael]

Good solution.

[Saint Sithney]

High Powered ammo is underpowered. If it was +2DV and -2 dice to hit, even if you discount the risk of missing altogether or glitching, it does the same expected damage as APDS or Ex-Ex rounds. But it has an increased risk of missing and glitching, and it requires a special chambering. It is just plain stupid.

No it doesn't?
+1DV -1AP is not the same as +2DV -1AP -2DP. Nor is -4AP. They are similar, but not as good as HP ammo when a character has the training to use it effectively. It's not leaps and bounds, but it is better.

That need for training is the rub, though. If an HP AR, the HK G12A4m, is the standard issue firearm of every military ever, then their troops must miss like crazy with their adjusted DP of 5.

Meanwhile, a gunbunny can take that -2 DP penalty and stack another -4 dice from a called shot for damage and still hit, generating a 12DV -2AP shot, potentially with autofire damage on top.

HP up a Barret and you've got dudes shootin holes straight through heavy armor. 11p -5ap base means you'd essentially be using heavy autocannon rounds... which is pretty awesome..

[KarmaInferno]

That's one of the reason why the 20th Anniversary edition suggests to apply a cumulative -1 modifier on extended rolls.

I'll rephrase.

My character is hardly the most Negotiate-optimized character out there, and she can hit an 102 Availability WITH THE -1 CUMULATIVE MODIFIER AND THE FORCED 4:1 BUY RULES.

Even an absolutely average runner can hit 24 Availability or so with just a couple of select pieces of skill-boosting gear.

I reiterate that due to how easy it is to boost Negotiate, the "prohibitively high Availability" maybe isn't so prohibitive.




-k

[Daishi]

Nuclear weapons (p. 159) have a damage dropoff far higher than non-nuclear THOR kinetic shots (-6/m vs -5/100m). I assume this is in error. In general the blast rules are a bit bizarre anyways. For reference see the RAND study.

Nuclear damage in general is anemic beyond the "devastated" radius. The smallest nuke they note (130P, -6m, c. 20m devastated radius) does only 4P damage at 21 meters. This is like Rifts.

Yeah, that must be an error. Adarael's fix of moving to per 100 m is consistent with the Thor shot and gets the right results.

Mine Detectors (p. 165) are so highly exothermic they can be seen under 2 meters of soil! How this works or why it doesn't damage or destroy the mine in the process is unknown. It also implies these things can detect mines at over 2 meters under soil and dig down or something. Fantastically bizarre logic on this one.

As written, that is pretty hot, yes. I'm guessing the notion was to make it trivial for any grunt to spot mines without anything more fancy than somewhat upgraded goggles. Two options to fix this I can think of. 1) Go for shallow depth penetration, maybe 20 cm. 2) Change from chemical reaction to RFID. I prefer the latter.

Mine Concealers (p. 165) are extremely unimpressive.

Agreed. The rules are also quite odd compared to everything else in SR4. I would drop this and go with Nanite hunters that target Mine Detectors.

Not sure why it's necessary that the Abdulla (p. 172) needs such a large crew (121) with 2070's automation technology. Just a detail quibble.

An understandable quibble. There's a few botched details in the naval ship descriptions. The Colombo cargo ship being described as the "largest of its type" only makes sense if you assume they mean "Panamax" when they say type. The Shibanokuji aircraft carrier is probably based on modern supercarriers, which definitely do not dwarf existing cargo ships. The notion that the Shibanokuji would dwarf 2070 cargo ships is ludicrous.

Shadowrun aircraft have lost the capability to launch cruise missiles (p. 174) as they require a vertical launch system.

Actually, given the ranges listed in War!, they're talking about intercontinental cruise missiles that are too big for most aircraft to carry. Three options: 1) Make these ones typical cruise missiles by dividing their ranges by 10 and allowing aircraft to carry them on reinforced weapon mounts, 2) Label these missiles as ICCMs and create a separate category of cruise missiles that are more portable, or 3) Bump up the speed substantially and make these ICBMs.

Speaking of aircraft, the rules for Launch Weapons from Arsenal remain unfixed. Seeing as how they went with huge piles of external weapon mounts on the aircraft in War!, I'm guessing the simplest option is to errata at least 12 external weapon mounts onto the Strike Eagle so it's not a joke.

Not sure what the point of the Self-Contained Personnel Compartment (pp. 175-177) is, given the size and cost.

I can see two reasons for it. The first is that as a separate vehicle, it allows for more customization and more survivability for the occupant. You could use it as a tricked out command module for a rigger for instance; one that can break away from the blowed up T-Bird on its own. The other reason is that it allows for rapid simultaneous deployment of multiple troops, though given the slot cost, this only works for the Tenshi which already has 8 of these contraptions. Also note that this gives the Tenshi about 76 modification slots, though most modifications won't carry over across the whole conglomeration.

Designate (p. 178) presumably also duplicates all encryption of the designators (otherwise it wouldn't work) which should let you spoof any enemy designators as well.

I would assume the other way. That it only duplicates an unencrypted designation signal. Easily spoofed, but also much easier to sneak a designator in somewhere.

[WyldKnight]

I'll rephrase.

My character is hardly the most Negotiate-optimized character out there, and she can hit an 102 Availability WITH THE -1 CUMULATIVE MODIFIER AND THE FORCED 4:1 BUY RULES.

Even an absolutely average runner can hit 24 Availability or so with just a couple of select pieces of skill-boosting gear.

I reiterate that due to how easy it is to boost Negotiate, the "prohibitively high Availability" maybe isn't so prohibitive.




-k

I would love to see how you hit these dice so easily. I made a rigger character and I realized it will take forever to get my gear. You can PM me the info since I don't want to derail this thread to much.

[sabs]

I'm officially seriously unhappy about Military grade software and matrix hardware being BETTER than Corporate stuff.
It shows a fundemental misunderstanding of Shadowrun.

[WyldKnight]

Don't the corps make most of the military gear anyway? Why couldn't they have the same stuff?

[Tzeentch]

-- The milspec = godly aspect has been hanging around since Shadowrun, First Edition. It didn't make a terrible lot of sense back then except that the governments presumably just threw money down a hole on this gear while corporations were all about cost-cutting and the bottom line. Makes sense for things like vehicles, but less so when it comes to communications security and such, when the only cost to the corporation is maybe training time or licensing fees they pay to themselves most of the time.

[Cthulhudreams]

The biggest problems CGL has right now are

A) A refusal to issue errata or clarifications for their products. Seriously, Karmagen has been an issue for how long? Changes have been incorproated into the new print edition and you STILL haven't posted an errata? What the hell? Stuff like battle rifles not having a skill should already be in the FAQ.

People don't mind if there are issues, but you need to move swiftly to fix them. CGL has not been fast on fixing things. Or even slow. more.. immobile.

B) They should apologize for the Jewish ghost killing thing, and that entire chapter being in bad taste.

I don't care if this chapter was meant to be not in bad taste, the fact of the matter is that.. it is.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Treshhold for a rating 6 SiN is 192.

Dp: Forgery+Edit+stuff
Forgery 7
Edit 6
Specialty +2
Encephalon +1
PuSheD +1
Teamwork Bonus 7
Custom Interface +1
Optimized: edit +1

26 dice, 7 edge.
DP 33, with exploding 6s
If you roll decently that's 14 hits. Only 178 to go, but now you have 32 dice.

I suspect it's still basically impossible to make a rating 6 SiN given the RAW.

Ok, Lets see...
33 Dice= 8 Successes
32 Dice = 8 Successes
31 Dice = 7 Successes
30 Dice = 7 Successes
29 Dice = 7 Successes
28 Dice = 7 Successes
...
8 Dice = 2 Successes
7 Dice = 1 Success
6 Dice = 1 Success
5 Dice = 1 Success
4 Dice = 1 Success

So, Using your Dice Pool as a Start...
That equals 128 Successes on a FORCED 4:1, No Rerolled 6's, Automaitc Successes Rule...
With Average Rolls (3:1), it gets even better... 187 Successes, Still no 6's Rerolled...

So, by my math, not Impossible at all... I am quite sure that a Rating 6 Sin is doable, even with the decrementing Dice Pools Optional Rule. After all, with average Rolls, you only need an additional 5 Hits to complete the Task... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And of course, if you do not use the decrementing Dice Pool Optional Rule, it only takes about 24 Rolls to get there... Entirely doable in my opinion.

[sabs]

except you don't have 33 points of edge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
with 26 dice and 3 dice per hit, you only get 116

[Mardrax]

Also, who (note the minimum of 2 people, due to teamwork) would spend these 30ish intervals?
Doable as in "a runner with sufficient reserves. Could potentially do this on a somewhat reliable bases, given an impractical ammount of time?" Or doable as in "making these could actually support a team of black market SIN salesmen to have a high enough Lifestyle to pay for their equipment, and thus make their listed availability even remotely credible?"

Or perhaps doable by using Edge to force a critical succes on a rush job? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

except you don't have 33 points of edge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
with 26 dice and 3 dice per hit, you only get 116

True, Missed that you were Using Edge within the Dice Pool Calculation.

But by Simply using a Higher Rated Edit Program (with Optimization of course) you can circumvent that a bit... Rating 10 Edit, and a location (shop, workspace, whatever) that has been sculpted through Feng Shui (Advanced Lifestyle Bonus), you are right back to that 33 Dice, with no expenditure of Edge... and lets not forget that a group capable of manufacturing Fake SIN's would also likely net a Tools Bonus of +2 for a Shop, or +4 for a Facility (as you need neither for the Actual creation of a SIN, you would likely benefit from exceptional tools)...

So, even if you keep the Rating 6 Edit, I still see an additional +5 to +7 Dice that may be applied to the rolls. so you are looking at 31-33 Dice, with Edge to fall back on (Whether it be Edge of 1 or 7)... It is not as hard as you are making it out to be in my opinion. Does it take a specialized group to Create SIN's? Most definitely... Are they going to be prolific? Most Definitely, For the Mid Range SIN's (Rated 3-4), ... The High End Forgers (Rating 5-6) will be a bit rarer, but that is how it is in the Real World as well...

[sabs]

With an interval of 1 week. you're talking 9 months per rating 6 sin.
9 months of work, for a team .. that good.. for 6nuyen?

that's less than 1000 nuyen a month. That's LOW lifestyle.

[Mardrax]

Barely enough to keep the teams nutrient drips running, let alone pay for legal/degrading software, and physical security, which they'd want to have. Still, good luck convincing any Pro-rating NPC this is a good way to spend their time.

[Saint Sithney]

With an interval of 1 week. you're talking 9 months per rating 6 sin.
9 months of work, for a team .. that good.. for 6nuyen?

that's less than 1000 nuyen a month. That's LOW lifestyle.

Not to mention the other guys from the teamwork test. Still, this can be done better.

Edit 12 +7 Forgery +7 teamwork +3 Nanites +2 specilization +2 codeslinger +1 PuSHeD +1 encephalon +1 optimization should give you a DP of 36. Edge reroll each week and you're looking at an effective DP of 50.

Still a shit way to make a living, but you'll get the job done before the sun goes nova at least.

[Mardrax]

Still talking about diving up 1k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month to a team of at least two, given the second also has a pool of at least 21. Assuming that nets him 7 successes reliably.

You haven't yet mentioned threading, and adept powers yet though. I'm pretty sure those can add some onto the pool.

[hobgoblin]

Likely redundant at this time, but am i the only one here that remembers that survival knife that came with a trauma patch that would cost more on its own then the whole knife package?

And was there not some drones at one point that came with pre-packaged weapons that would cost more then the drone?

SR have a history if these things, going as far back as (holy) FASA...

[Critias]

Likely redundant at this time, but am i the only one here that remembers that survival knife that came with a trauma patch that would cost more on its own then the whole knife package?

Kagetenshi mentioned it somewhere, I think. Someone did, at any rate, yeah. I never tried to exploit it to make money (like a cheat in a video game or something), but I still almost always bought a survival knife for every character, just 'cause they seemed so damned handy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The milspec = godly aspect has been hanging around since Shadowrun, First Edition.

And it was reduced to almost sensible levels with SR4, Arsenal and Unwired. Meh.

[Daishi]

It is solid with the Base Rules, I guess that was what Daishi meant

Yes, that is what I meant. It fits well with the base rules which is the important part to me. It may have thrown off some of the example systems in other books, but even in Unwired there were example systems with ratings 7+. The costs and availability is consistent, but the one thing I think they screwed up in this regard was in the fluff and the grunts' gear - distributing that high end stuff at too low a level. Rating 6 should remain the cutting edge for the rank and file. Rating 7+ is only what you break out for your crazy elite specialists that already have vast piles of nuyen dumped into their training and the rest of their gear.

Just because an item has a price and availability doesn't mean a GM has to allow it for the PCs or make it common for the NPCs. It just gives the GM rules to work with in deciding whether to allow it and what it takes to bring it into the game. I also like having rules for things like Deltaware and autocannons. Those probably won't come up in most campaigns, but for some it will. And in such a campaign, having rules for the matrix side to move up is a welcome addition.

p. 156 Anti-Tank Rounds.
[SUGG] Either remove as redundant with APDS or eliminate availability for sniper rifles.
Reason: Most sniper rifles use battle rifle caliber ammunition so the "large-bore" limitation is nonsensical.

I rather like the option of an extra 2 AP for heavier weapons, but I can understand people thinking it's excessive relative to existing ammo. The Sniper Rifle inclusion makes sense though. Battle rifles are 7P -1 AP, which is the same as Sports Rifles, and that's probably ~7.62 rounds. Sniper Rifles are something larger since they start at 7P -3 AP and go to 9P -4 AP, which to me suggests they are in the .338 Lapau Magnum to .50 BMG range. The Barrett Model 121, for instance, is almost certainly a reference to the Light Fifty. The Desert Strike is probably a playful reference to the Arctic Warfare Magnum. Those are large-bore weapons.

p. 156 Armor-Piercing Flechette
-- These are effectivelly AP Mod -5, which may be a balance concern.

Agreed. Since armor is basically ubiquitous in SR, I've always wondered about the utility of ammo that gives +5 AP, so I like the concept of AP flechette but the complete elimination of that AP modifier may be excessive. I'd be inclined to say bump the AP to +2, but I have a weak commitment to that position.

p. 162 Tactical Satellite Mapping
[SUGG] Change to Tactical Map or simply delete.
Reason: This doesn't even neeed a satellite to work. Anyways, this should be something that is part and parcel of a tactical network.

Part of me likes this software for fluff reasons, but it seems to exist too much in isolation. I'd say shelve it until there are some more rules or even just fluff about satellite and aerial reconnaissance (which I really feel like was missing from War!).

p. 163 Armor Foam
-- Someone with better rules-fu than me should comment on the balance of it being an instant Armor 14 structure. Rules lawyers could argue that a spray application to any vehicle would add the Armor as no minimum thickness is specified.

No minimum thickness is mentioned, but all the application examples talk about 1 m thickness so that seems like a reasonable minimum to get that effect. Those same rules lawyers could always argue about welding structural steel to the exterior of vehicles. Both options are either irrelevant (vehicles have hard armor caps in Arsenal) or lead to great room for hilarity on the part of the GM, especially for the barrier foam which is explicitly hard to shape or control. "Door's been sealed shut. Use the window."

p. 163 MCT Gun Pit
-- So the soldier has to climb a 1 meter wall to get into or out of this pit?

That's a bit over waist high. What's the problem?

p. 163 Emergency Field Dressing
-- This thing is big time munchkin bait. Simply apply it to yourself to benefit from the High Pain Tolerance 2 quality, injured or not.

Possibly, but if the effect is drug based then addiction rules apply. If its something else related to the dressing, then it would only apply to the wound in question. There's room for clarification in this to balance it out.

p. 171 Hull Breaches and Sinking
-- These rules are nonsensical and need to be replaced. A starting point may be that the vessel can withstand a number of breaches equal to its Structure or something.

What's nonsensical about the rules? The only real function of ship size in the stats is the length, not structure, so making the damage proportional to the length is reasonable. At least that's my first take on it. Break it down for me if you disagree.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Part of me likes this software for fluff reasons, but it seems to exist too much in isolation. I'd say shelve it until there are some more rules or even just fluff about satellite and aerial reconnaissance (which I really feel like was missing from War!).

Again: MapSofts already do that, TacSofts even more so. (Added benefit: Both feature actual rules to use them…)

Every unit will run a TacSoft and even the lowliest guerrilla will use MapSofts.

[Daishi]

The biggest rules issue is the rules for combining damage when you duct tape grenades or whatever together. It's not strictly equipment, but you need to fix it.

Yeah. Adding half damage makes sense for a few grenades going off near each other, but when you start talking FA grenade launchers the numbers get wonky. Simply using the same +1 per round rule as other weapons is probably the safest option.

Do any of you mind if I use this thread as a basis for a fan-made errata?

Knock yourself out.

-- Also probably errata is that none of the War! vehicles have ECCM. Not one.

Since ECCM is on the software side in SR4 that doesn't bother me a lot, but they still should have mentioned it for some of the vehicles to be consistent with the standard ECCM and Autosoft listings of Arsenal.

[Daishi]

High Powered ammo is underpowered. At +2DV and -2 dice to hit, even if you discount the risk of missing altogether or glitching, it does the same expected damage as APDS or Ex-Ex rounds. But it has an increased risk of missing and glitching, and it requires a special chambering. It is just plain stupid.

My first thought regarding the High Powered ammo was, "Hey, NPC ammo!" The restrictions do make it questionable for most PC uses. You give up a lot of versatility in terms of mod slots, ammo types, and dice pool to play with for not a lot of value coming back. My friend actually misread the rules and came up with a decent variation on the recoil modifier. Just double uncompensated recoil. I rather like that variation.

-Hee Vee Rifle still needs addressed.

What about it needs to be addressed? Please be specific. The first thing that came to my mind was that it's an HV weapon that lacks FA capacity, thus rendering that HV component completely irrelevant. That's a definite goof. I'm thinking making it SA/BF/FA is necessary to be reasonable. Or was there something else you had in mind?

[Tzeentch]

Armor-Piercing Flechettes
Agreed. Since armor is basically ubiquitous in SR, I've always wondered about the utility of ammo that gives +5 AP, so I like the concept of AP flechette but the complete elimination of that AP modifier may be excessive. I'd be inclined to say bump the AP to +2, but I have a weak commitment to that position.

-- Note that flechette weapons are resisted by Impact, which is almost always 1-2 points lower than Ballistic even before you apply the +2 Power for flechettes. However, this ends up making them sort of crappy APDS in the end for most applications so it might all balance out.

Armor Foam
No minimum thickness is mentioned, but all the application examples talk about 1 m thickness so that seems like a reasonable minimum to get that effect. Those same rules lawyers could always argue about welding structural steel to the exterior of vehicles. Both options are either irrelevant (vehicles have hard armor caps in Arsenal) or lead to great room for hilarity on the part of the GM, especially for the barrier foam which is explicitly hard to shape or control. "Door's been sealed shut. Use the window."

-- My envelope calculations put the density of this stuff in the realm of aerogels. That's a bit amusing.
-- Armor foam as access denial ("Foam the doors and the truck wheels!") might also be a good tactic.

MCT Gun Pit
That's a bit over waist high. What's the problem?

-- Just seems odd. Couldn't it leave an access gap?
-- Throwing these out on the highway would also be hilarious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ship Breaching
What's nonsensical about the rules? The only real function of ship size in the stats is the length, not structure, so making the damage proportional to the length is reasonable. At least that's my first take on it. Break it down for me if you disagree.

-- Compartmentalization is nonexistant. Repair times are extremely fast.