War! Gear & Rules, What's good, iffy, needs fixing or a complete revamp? Options

[Mardrax]

Since ECCM is on the software side in SR4 that doesn't bother me a lot, but they still should have mentioned it for some of the vehicles to be consistent with the standard ECCM and Autosoft listings of Arsenal.

Because using a standard issue mook-agent, and having it operate the best global jammer money can buy -getting the drop on anyone not having a 6+ Signal device. Which would include everyone who thinks the S 10 'link they nabbed off their enemys corpse was the likely reason for his brain being fried. Over his speedballing combat drugs. And everyone else not using the insane numbercreep new Milspec stuff - shouldn't be a standard MO in most militarily, how?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Agents don't have Electronic Warfare. They can't even Decrypt.

[Tzeentch]

p. 168 Aztechnology Cuanmitztli Main Battle Tank
* Suggest reducing the crew to three, down from five (!).
* Update standard equipment to bring it in line with Arsenal writeups. New entry would be something like:

Aztechnology Cuanmitztli Main Battle Tank: The current king of heavy metal firepower. The Cuanmitztli and its competitors are available with several armaments packages to meet the demands of even the most budget conscious warlord. Very little can stand up to a Cuanmitztli on the battlefield . . . except another Cuanmitztli. Crew consists of a driver, gunner and commander.
Similar Models: Ruhrmetall Leopard IV, Saeder-Krupp Sigurd III
Standard Upgrades: Armor (smart), 3 ammo bins (one for each weapon mount), small drone rack, gyro link, improved sensor array, life support (Level 1), missile defense system, rigger adaptation, signature masking (Rating 2), smoke projector, tracked vehicle, weapon mount (heavy turret, armored manual, remote), weapon mount (reinforced, external, turret, remote), 2 weapon mounts (reinforced, external, flexible, remote), ECM 4, ECCM 4.

[KarmaInferno]

-- The milspec = godly aspect has been hanging around since Shadowrun, First Edition.

Here's the thing.

I agree with you about government MilTech. It's often just average, and often below the quality of privately obtainable gear.

But this is ShadowRun. We aren't just talking about government. We have Corporate militaries as well. Which unlike government militaries, are often structured to turn a profit instead of being an expense.

Think of current day private military companies. You see their troops in battlezones all over the world, and they're often equipped with the best state of the art bang-bangs and gear that money can buy. The money is so good there that actual government militaries lose a good chunk of their troops to them. Those soldiers seeing the PMC boys, doing the same jobs they are, only with considerably better money and benefits, are often tempted to sign on with the PMCs when their tour of duty is up.

THAT is the default state of "miltech" in the SR universe. So it's not entirely out of question to assume that by then, MilTech often really IS better.



-k

[sabs]

Corporate MilSpec SHOULD be top of the Line.

Ares Valkyries, Renraku Red Samurai, S&K's Storm troopers..
Those guys should have SotA equipment

Ares Military, High end Merc units, should have 1 step bellow SotA stuff.
Government Military should be on part with average runners in some cases, and bellow par in some others (Aztlan military should be way bellow, Aztech Military should be on par if not better)

But NOONE should have better Matrix/Computer power than ZO. /noone/

[hermit]

I see no reason for Signal >6. Apart from health issues, and weight issues, it just makes no sense. The part where military links really make sense is Firewall, because you do not want to be hacked in war.

Infantrymen are well served with a link of maybe 5/3/5/8. Officers maybe 6/5/7/7. Specops 8/5/8/8. 9 and 10 should be limited to exoperimental stuff or real hardcore government hacker squads/elite terrorist/syndicate hackers.

[Mäx]

But NOONE should have better Matrix/Computer power than ZO. /noone/

Well the example rating for ZO don't really make much sense, so this isn't really a valid point.

[hobgoblin]

Ares Valkyries, Renraku Red Samurai, S&K's Storm troopers..
Those guys should have SotA equipment

Do one bring a RPG to a fist fight?

[hermit]

A Ballista?

[Doc Chase]

Well the example rating for ZO don't really make much sense, so this isn't really a valid point.

TBH, ZO's rating should be much like a Great Dragon's - You don't stat God.

[sabs]

It's true.. ZO shouldn't have been stated.

But it was.. and now we're stuck with it.

[sabs]

Do one bring a RPG to a fist fight?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I obviously made up the name of the S&K guys.. I couldn't remember what it was.. and Storm Trooper was funny.. since Storm Troopers were modeled after the SS Shock Troops, and S&K is a German company.. well okay if you have to explain it.. it probably wasn't funny.

[Sengir]

I'm officially seriously unhappy about Military grade software and matrix hardware being BETTER than Corporate stuff.
It shows a fundemental misunderstanding of Shadowrun.

I see it as the closest thing to errata CGL will release: Matrix Ratings now go from 1 to 10. Which is fine, it allows finer granularity, and GMs who can only create challanges by increasing numbers will surely like it.

[sabs]

It does put Hackers closer to on par with the Technomancer rating 12 chicanery.
But I guess that's not really how i hoped they would fix it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hermit]

That's why I overall approve of this, as one of the few points in War! I do.

And no, it'S not the most elegant fix, but it's better than none.

[Kagetenshi]

Likely redundant at this time, but am i the only one here that remembers that survival knife that came with a trauma patch that would cost more on its own then the whole knife package?

Kagetenshi mentioned it somewhere, I think. Someone did, at any rate, yeah. I never tried to exploit it to make money (like a cheat in a video game or something), but I still almost always bought a survival knife for every character, just 'cause they seemed so damned handy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Yeah, that was me. Not really that exploitable, though, since the trauma patch only costs 50¥ more than the whole knife, meaning that even with a generous assignment of value to the knife itself and the compass, micro-lighter, and night-glow stick you're talking a significant amount of grunt work to extract the extra value. It's still dumb, but you need to get them by the truckload to actually break the game.

That's a bit over waist high. What's the problem?

You are discriminating against Dwarves! I'm reporting you to Mothers of Metahumans!

~J

[Sengir]

It does put Hackers closer to on par with the Technomancer rating 12 chicanery.

Just remember that using the matrix equivalent of a troll cyberzombie dual-wielding assault cannons always generates unwanted attention (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[sabs]

Wait is that the Technomancer, or the Hacker using Response 10 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

Both, pink mohawks suck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[sabs]

So bleeping true.

[WyldKnight]

It would be true, if it wasn't such a blatant lie (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But NOONE should have better Matrix/Computer power than ZO. /noone/

Please remember that the only stats we have for Zurich Orbital is for a Terrestrial Ground Station... NO WHERE is ZO actually statted out... Just keep that in mind... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mardrax]

Agents don't have Electronic Warfare. They can't even Decrypt.

Ugh. I stand corrected. I should fix myself up a sleep regulator before trying posting at that hour.

Main point stands about military would IMHO definitely focus on denial of ranged communications in a lot of cases, if they can get hardware that's essentially immune to it. Skimping on the defense part could bring even a S10 'link to uncomfortably low signal levels.

Then again. I see how a generalized software suite shouldn't be included for specific vehicles. Might be worth adding one, or a few Milspec suites on their own though. "What does Uncle Knight do with hardware that's not Heavy Ordnance?"

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Main point stands about military would IMHO definitely focus on denial of ranged communications in a lot of cases, if they can get hardware that's essentially immune to it. Skimping on the defense part could bring even a S10 'link to uncomfortably low signal levels.

Jammers don't reduce Signal. They don't even work as area interdiction anymore. And a Commlink with Response 3, Signal 4 and ECCM 6 (Optimization 3) is enough to beat the best Jammers available.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Jammers don't reduce Signal. They don't even work as area interdiction anymore. And a Commlink with Response 3, Signal 4 and ECCM 6 (Optimization 3) is enough to beat the best Jammers available.

If I remember correctly, though, Active Jamming works quite well, because it is an OPPOSED TEST, Winner Jams an entire frequency... Of course, the defense to that would be rotating frequencies, but again, they are not all that difficult to jam up again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)