War! Gear & Rules, What's good, iffy, needs fixing or a complete revamp? Options

[KarmaInferno]

There is no explanation other than the authors though a mono-grenade cutting people would be AWESOME and never bothered to check the prices in other supplements.

That and not bothering to check how shrapnel works. You need force AND mass.




-k

[Kagetenshi]

That and not bothering to check how shrapnel works. You need force AND mass.

Just force, which is after all velocity times mass.

~J

[hermit]

Acceleration, actually (F=ma).

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Just force, which is after all velocity times mass.

~J

Momentum is velocity times mass.

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, okay. I only have a college level basic Physics knowledge of the issue, though, and even I know it's got more to it that simply putting wire in an explosion. 10 minutes of actual looking the subject up probably would have gotten me to the right answer.

Which just tells me the author just didn't bother.





-k

[Game2BHappy]

There is no explanation other than the authors though a mono-grenade cutting people would be AWESOME ...

imo, AWESOME is always a great reason to bend the laws of RL for a game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For those that don't buy "awesome" as a good enough reason, maybe re-label it in your game under a new name, just call it a DIME or SDB. Strong damage with a small area of effect. Plus you still get your slice n' dice:

Survivors close to the lethal zone may have their limbs amputated (as the micro shrapnel can slice through soft tissue and bone) from the HMTA micro-shrapnel embedded in their body tissue.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_Inert_Metal_Explosive
Global Security: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...itions/dime.htm

[Kagetenshi]

Acceleration, actually (F=ma).

Um.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

I'm going to go crawl under a rock in shame now.

(But force still incorporates mass, so my point still stands)

~J

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

All you need, actually, is momentum.
A 10-ton truck moving at 5m/s (roughly 10 miles per hour) has 50*10^3 kg*m/s. Which is a lot in case you ask.
If you have a piece of shrapnel weighting 100 grams, you need it to move at 500 kilometers PER SECOND in order to achieve the same momentum.

[Draco18s]

If you have a piece of shrapnel weighting 100 grams, you need it to move at 500 kilometers PER SECOND in order to achieve the same momentum.

How much velocity for something that weighs 0.01 grams?
(Which 1 cm of monowire/microwire likely weighs)

500 km / sec is already stupidly fast (and a 10 mph truck hitting someone in ShadowRun does like 12P, the monofillament grenade does 8P with -4 AP, so very close to the same momentum)

So even if we assume that the grenade accellerates the bits to only 500 km / sec and each "piece" does 1P worth of damage, 500 km/s (i.e. 1,118,468 MPH) means we have a sever suspension of disbelief issue.

[Ascalaphus]

At what velocity is air friction so powerful that the monowire bits burn away to nothingness before hitting their target?

[Draco18s]

At what velocity is air friction so powerful that the monowire bits burn away to nothingness before hitting their target?

Less than a million MPH.

You're also assuming that the intense, close range, exothermic reaction that causes them to fly around didn't vaporize them in the first place.

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, things like that. It sounds like an interesting concept, but laughable from an elementary physics standpoint.

It's like cooking; individually nice ingredients don't always combine into a super-nice dish. SuperAwesomeMonowire and Explosions don't really mix all that well.

[sabs]

That thing should be a low explosion monowire net, that anchors across an area. (it digs into plascreet, wood, etc, ) and creates a 'net'. Anyone walking into it takes zomgzors damage.

[Kronk2]

-- I'm guessing the writer thought that target designators are fancy flashlights, which magic could replicate easily.

In a way they kinda are, Laser designators anyway. its a beam of light that is reflecting off a target, its the sensor end that has some mojo software on it,
`e
~~Edit for continuance
A very well controlled laser spell could do the same thing, but I don' know the difficulty for tuning a combat spell to a specific frequency would be, that and combat spells are instant, not sustainable.

[Sengir]

Guys, we are talking about some stuff supposedly produced by tiny insectoid nanobots, which already is the ultimate scientifically impossible handwavium. So the product of a handwavium process requires massive suspension of disbelief? I'm shocked...


For those interested, one of the few summaries whose author actually managed to treat this baloney without getting too enraged in the process: http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/na...anotech-rapture

[Draco18s]

So the product of a handwavium process requires massive suspension of disbelief? I'm shocked...

Production of monowire? No. Using it as shrapnel? Yes.

[Fatum]

Come on, people, War! has a lot of poorly thought through things, but criticizing vehicle names and the way handwavium grenades work is all too far into the grognard territory.

[otakusensei]

Come on, people, War! has a lot of poorly thought through things, but criticizing vehicle names and the way handwavium grenades work is all too far into the grognard territory.

You're right, we should have stopped at the lack of introduction or proofing, the poor layout and the ugly design. But while you're raging at the typos you start getting pissed off that the writers didn't seem to understand the game, and eventually you're reading the stats on ships that can each and every one submerge and kill all hands on board. Then you see the names they were given...

It would be a vicious cycle, except that if you keep going you hit the end of the book eventually. But you're still pissed off and disappointed, so you start working from the thing that pissed you off last. What you're seeing here is sort of a backwards catharsis of people dealing with a book that has issues cover to cover. The names and crunch just happen to be in the back and they haven't gotten back to WORK BRINGS FREEDOM again.

Eventually they will be back to the lack of an introduction, but then they will find themselves staring at this book that just disappointed them coming and going. They will leave it where it is and try to go about their lives. But it really couldn't have been that bad, right? Those leadership rules were alright; and wasn't there something else that didn't suck?

So they open the book and notice the lack of an introduction, again...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're right, we should have stopped at the lack of introduction or proofing, the poor layout and the ugly design. But while you're raging at the typos you start getting pissed off that the writers didn't seem to understand the game, and eventually you're reading the stats on ships that can each and every one submerge and kill all hands on board. Then you see the names they were given...

It would be a vicious cycle, except that if you keep going you hit the end of the book eventually. But you're still pissed off and disappointed, so you start working from the thing that pissed you off last. What you're seeing here is sort of a backwards catharsis of people dealing with a book that has issues cover to cover. The names and crunch just happen to be in the back and they haven't gotten back to WORK BRINGS FREEDOM again.

Eventually they will be back to the lack of an introduction, but then they will find themselves staring at this book that just disappointed them coming and going. They will leave it where it is and try to go about their lives. But it really couldn't have been that bad, right? Those leadership rules were alright; and wasn't there something else that didn't suck?

So they open the book and notice the lack of an introduction, again...

And yet, NOT everyone experiences it the way you laid it out... Not only did I not react in that manner, I actually liked most of the material in the book itself. Yes, it has issues, but they are not as bad as you paint them, at least for me... Everyone is different. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[otakusensei]

And yet, NOT everyone experiences it the way you laid it out... Not only did I not react in that manner, I actually liked most of the material in the book itself. Yes, it has issues, but they are not as bad as you paint them, at least for me... Everyone is different. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Some people live in conditions I would never consider safe or sanitary, and they claim to be perfectly happy too. Doesn't mean I shouldn't point out that water damage and the black mold when they put the place up for sale.

[Doc Chase]

Come on, people, War! has a lot of poorly thought through things, but criticizing vehicle names and the way handwavium grenades work is all too far into the grognard territory.

I would rather have everything wrong in one 'neat' package, rather than brush this or that off as 'it's not that bad.' I like to think I have a workable alternative to the way the monowire grenades are written, I'm an American uneducated in the languages of the world so I didn't mind the names as much, but if those whose native language is German sit there and go 'lolwut', then I will defer to their opinion. Aaron has already noted there were mistakes made in the naming and defended other names as accurate and intentional, and I defer there as well. Suspension of disbelief is necessary in a game system like this as we hurtle towards the day Ryumyo wakes up on Fuji and goes 'wassup', but when one can look at a product and say "that isn't physically possible by any standard" then one needs to wonder.

The reason this thread exists is because there is crunch that is indicative of writers that Did Not Do The Research (click it, I dare you) or They Just Didn't Care (I double dog dare you). That's just this thread. There are several threads involving this book on this forum and on others that have people that aren't too happy they spent money on a product with this kind of trouble. Everyone expects some kind of bitching when a book goes to the street; that's fine. The amount of warranted bitching on this product, however, exceeds tolerances for a purchase for a decent number of fellows. There are several more threads (and now three projects I have to work on, natch) where they are taking the problems with this book and making their own fixes. alt.War is doing what it can to expand on what's there and actually make a book about War, and further expand it into around five issues now involving different theatres and aspects of warfare such as mercenary work, corporate-sponsored conflict and things of that vein. This thread is trying to take the crunch and make it workable for everyone; working to bring the warranted bitching down to nominal levels. Not necessarily a bad thing at all.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Some people live in conditions I would never consider safe or sanitary, and they claim to be perfectly happy too. Doesn't mean I shouldn't point out that water damage and the black mold when they put the place up for sale.

Very True...
I would just like to point out that no one truly has the right to question another's happiness... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would rather have everything wrong in one 'neat' package, rather than brush this or that off as 'it's not that bad.' I like to think I have a workable alternative to the way the monowire grenades are written, I'm an American uneducated in the languages of the world so I didn't mind the names as much, but if those whose native language is German sit there and go 'lolwut', then I will defer to their opinion. Aaron has already noted there were mistakes made in the naming and defended other names as accurate and intentional, and I defer there as well. Suspension of disbelief is necessary in a game system like this as we hurtle towards the day Ryumyo wakes up on Fuji and goes 'wassup', but when one can look at a product and say "that isn't physically possible by any standard" then one needs to wonder.

The reason this thread exists is because there is crunch that is indicative of writers that Did Not Do The Research (click it, I dare you) or They Just Didn't Care (I double dog dare you). That's just this thread. There are several threads involving this book on this forum and on others that have people that aren't too happy they spent money on a product with this kind of trouble. Everyone expects some kind of bitching when a book goes to the street; that's fine. The amount of warranted bitching on this product, however, exceeds tolerances for a purchase for a decent number of fellows. There are several more threads (and now three projects I have to work on, natch) where they are taking the problems with this book and making their own fixes. alt.War is doing what it can to expand on what's there and actually make a book about War, and further expand it into around five issues now involving different theatres and aspects of warfare such as mercenary work, corporate-sponsored conflict and things of that vein. This thread is trying to take the crunch and make it workable for everyone; working to bring the warranted bitching down to nominal levels. Not necessarily a bad thing at all.

And Point Taken, My Apologies... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[otakusensei]

Very True...
I would just like to point out that no one truly has the right to question another's happiness... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Wrong, when the happiness of someone else is effecting yourself or others in a negative way you can and should question it.

[Fatum]

I would rather have everything wrong in one 'neat' package, rather than brush this or that off as 'it's not that bad.' I like to think I have a workable alternative to the way the monowire grenades are written, I'm an American uneducated in the languages of the world so I didn't mind the names as much, but if those whose native language is German sit there and go 'lolwut', then I will defer to their opinion. Aaron has already noted there were mistakes made in the naming and defended other names as accurate and intentional, and I defer there as well. Suspension of disbelief is necessary in a game system like this as we hurtle towards the day Ryumyo wakes up on Fuji and goes 'wassup', but when one can look at a product and say "that isn't physically possible by any standard" then one needs to wonder.

The reason this thread exists is because there is crunch that is indicative of writers that Did Not Do The Research (click it, I dare you) or They Just Didn't Care (I double dog dare you). That's just this thread. There are several threads involving this book on this forum and on others that have people that aren't too happy they spent money on a product with this kind of trouble. Everyone expects some kind of bitching when a book goes to the street; that's fine. The amount of warranted bitching on this product, however, exceeds tolerances for a purchase for a decent number of fellows. There are several more threads (and now three projects I have to work on, natch) where they are taking the problems with this book and making their own fixes. alt.War is doing what it can to expand on what's there and actually make a book about War, and further expand it into around five issues now involving different theatres and aspects of warfare such as mercenary work, corporate-sponsored conflict and things of that vein. This thread is trying to take the crunch and make it workable for everyone; working to bring the warranted bitching down to nominal levels. Not necessarily a bad thing at all.

You say that as if I'm not in half of those threads.
It's just this thread, as I said, slided into grognard grumbling over things too minor compared to all the other... uh... let's say issues with the book; instead of actually discussing the best way to work around, say, the uncompensatable recoil of the new ammo in RAW and such.