War! Gear & Rules, What's good, iffy, needs fixing or a complete revamp? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wrong, when the happiness of someone else is effecting yourself or others in a negative way you can and should question it.

Negative is so subjective though...

[Doc Chase]

You say that as if I'm not in half of those threads.
It's just this thread, as I said, slided into grognard grumbling over things too minor compared to all the other... uh... let's say issues with the book; instead of actually discussing the best way to work around, say, the uncompensatable recoil of the new ammo in RAW and such.

And again, I say that I'd rather have all the problems people see rather than poo-poohing off suspension of disbelief problems by saying readers are grognarding.

If that was the only problem with the book I'd call it bitching just to bitch - but it certainly isn't.

[sabs]

And what exactly is wrong with being a French Infantry man?
I have several family members who died on the March to Moscow, you insensitive clods!

[Fatum]

And again, I say that I'd rather have all the problems people see rather than poo-poohing off suspension of disbelief problems by saying readers are grognarding.

If that was the only problem with the book I'd call it bitching just to bitch - but it certainly isn't.

"Bitching" for three pages about the names instead of suggesting actual mechanical corrections is grumbling for its own sake.

[Stahlseele]

And what exactly is wrong with being a French Infantry man?
I have several family members who died on the March to Moscow, you insensitive clods!

It's an american thing.

[Doc Chase]

"Bitching" for three pages about the names instead of suggesting actual mechanical corrections is grumbling for its own sake.

Corrections were quickly and repeatedly offered. In many cases, griping is going to be the genesis of productive discourse.

[otakusensei]

Negative is so subjective though...

No more than happy.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No more than happy.

Maybe, but if I am happy (as an example) and not hurting anyone, what right does someone else have to come and rain on the parade... even if my life could otherwise be better for the intrusion?

[otakusensei]

Maybe, but if I am happy (as an example) and not hurting anyone, what right does someone else have to come and rain on the parade... even if my life could otherwise be better for the intrusion?

Because the mechanism of your happiness makes me unhappy?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because the mechanism of your happiness makes me unhappy?

At which point you get back to Imposing a set of "beliefs" upon another at their expense, for absolutely no reason but that you want to show your superiority (or whatever)...
See how that goes?

[Doc Chase]

At which point you get back to Imposing a set of "beliefs" upon another at their expense, for absolutely no reason but that you want to show your superiority (or whatever)...
See how that goes?

I do. Both ways. Let's talk about sandwiches now.

[fistandantilus4....]

It's looking like going from bitching just to bitch, to arguing just to argue. Please, give this thread a reason to continue to exist, or it will be locked up and left.

[Fatum]

Oy-vey, I just noticed.
War! features such gems in firearm design as AK-147 and AK-147 Carbine.
Minding that Core already has AK-97 and Arsenal has AK-98 and AK-127 (in German version), and that in Russian shortened versions of weapons get the index U (see AKS-74U), I am just appalled by how little research the author did, both into RL basis for what he was writing (47+100? Seriously?) and existing SR material.

[Draco18s]

and that in Russian shortened versions of weapons get the index U (see AKS-74U)

Its just a shortened version. Or was originally.
the AKS-74U (U—Ukorochenniy, lit. Shortened),

[Mäx]

Oy-vey, I just noticed.
War! features such gems in firearm design as AK-147 and AK-147 Carbine.
Minding that Core already has AK-97 and Arsenal has AK-98 and AK-127 (in German version), and that in Russian shortened versions of weapons get the index U (see AKS-74U), I am just appalled by how little research the author did, both into RL basis for what he was writing (47+100? Seriously?) and existing SR material.

Whut, this is a complain i really cant understand.
You say that SR has AK:s up to number 127 and your problem is that the newest version in the rifle line is numbered as 147.
Really could you maybe explain whats the problem with that?

[Fatum]

No, my complaint is not that they moved to 147 after 127.
My complaint is that the system already has three AK assault rifles, of which 97 is stated to be the most popular assault rifle in the world.
Now, the writers of War!, instead of checking what firearms are in the system already, just go and add 147 (with the most lazy numbering ever, or what, do you think it to be coincidental?), going on about how it's oh-such-a-popular firearm. It's not new IC or SOTA or anything, mind you, it's just there cause someone was too lazy to check if there are statted up AKs already. Thus, the complaint that the writer did not do his research on SR material.
The complaint about not doing the research on RL basis burns down to not using the standard rigid scheme of naming Russian firearms use: carbines get an U after the name or the number. AK-147 Carbine is just AK-147 Carbine, though. Okay, fine, no one can be expected to open wikipedia on the topic he's writing about, so that's a moot point.

[KarmaInferno]

Like what happened with the AA-12/AA-16, the authors did not research the original weapons enough to realize that the numerical part of the name IS NOT just a serial number, it's an indicator of something else.

In the case of the AA-12, it's got the "12" because it fires 12-gauge shot-shells. So making the "new" version be named AA-16 makes no sense.

In the case of the AK-47, the "47" is in reference to the year it was first put into production, 1947. Just like the later AK-74 is numbered after the year 1974, the year THAT weapon was put into production.

Shadowrun's fictional "AK-97" is more or less okay, if you assume that in SR it was first introduced in 1997. But I'm not sure the author then actually intended that.

"AK-127" and "AK-147" are just silly.



-k

[CanRay]

Nomenclature in military changes all the time. An example would be between WWI and WWII when they changed from naming modifications to weapons as a "Mark" to a "Number". That's how you get weirdly named rifles like the SMLE Mk.III/No.1. It was the Mark III in World War I, and the Number 1 in WWII. There is also the SMLE No. 4, which was the primary production rifle for the British Commonwealth that was streamlined for faster production, and was fitted with different iron sights to make them easier to train with, but weren't as adjustable as the No. 1s sights. (This rifle is still in use by the Canadian Arctic Rangers, BTW.).

IRL, the AK-Series uses a numbering system that is in the Hundreds now (AK-103, I think), rather than year of issue. There's also the AKM, which doesn't even have a number designator.

That said, the AK-97 is almost as iconic a Shadowrun weapon as the Ares Predator. And the new versions of the AK-Family... Well, I cannot comment on as I don't have the book.

But a bit from the Gun Nut Files. Enjoy!

[Fatum]

IRL, the AK-Series uses a numbering system that is in the Hundreds now (AK-103, I think), rather than year of issue. There's also the AKM, which doesn't even have a number designator.
That said, the AK-97 is almost as iconic a Shadowrun weapon as the Ares Predator. And the new versions of the AK-Family... Well, I cannot comment on as I don't have the book.

Actually, AK-200 is the new derivative of original 47, and AK-107 and AK-108 are new rifles - they use old AK as a basis, but they've got a new counter-balance operating system to reduce recoil. Actually, they're modified so much that A stands for Alexandrov (their designer), not Avtomat (assault rifle) now in their designation.
And okay, I'm ok with the model number creep, what scrapes on my nerves is both just adding one hundred to the iconic AK number, and adding one more AK assault rifle to the system where there are three already for no reason whatsoever besides not doing their research. Oh, and the whole carbine deal.

[CanRay]

The Carbine deal, I'll agree with. Their Carbine was the AKS-74U, which, IIRC, was designed for the Spetsnaz or the Russian Paratroopers. Or both.

As for including another one, it could have just been done in fluff and left at that, commenting that there are various incarnations of the AK-97 on the market... I mean, hell, look at all the knock-offs that have their own name, or even the ones that are designs that are different in everything but the mechanism. But, in the end, an AK is an AK is an AK. And I can hear the AK-Fans gnashing their teeth at me for saying so. But, when it comes to Shadowrun Crunch, it's true.

That said, I still want a Galil in Shadowrun.

[Mäx]

No, my complaint is not that they moved to 147 after 127.
My complaint is that the system already has three AK assault rifles, of which 97 is stated to be the most popular assault rifle in the world.
Now, the writers of War!, instead of checking what firearms are in the system already, just go and add 147 (with the most lazy numbering ever, or what, do you think it to be coincidental?), going on about how it's oh-such-a-popular firearm. It's not new IC or SOTA or anything, mind you, it's just there cause someone was too lazy to check if there are statted up AKs already. Thus, the complaint that the writer did not do his research on SR material.

And you know this how, AK-147 having identical stats(except for the added RC) to 97 kinda makes me doupt that.
AK-147 is an example new kind of an rifle, completely made by nanofax machines.

[sabs]

What would be cool is if the AK-series had something to set it aside.

like on a crit glitch, you roll edge, and only on another crit-glitch does the weapon actually jam/misfire, etc.

That would represent the 'power' of the AK series.

[Doc Chase]

And you know this how, AK-147 having identical stats(except for the added RC) to 97 kinda makes me doupt that.
AK-147 is an example new kind of an rifle, completely made by nanofax machines.

IIRC, there's some fancy minor quality attached to nanofaxed designs. More reliable or something, because the fax ensures it's been put together free of error. I'll have to check the books, but I remember seeing something.

[Fatum]

And you know this how, AK-147 having identical stats(except for the added RC) to 97 kinda makes me doupt that.
AK-147 is an example new kind of an rifle, completely made by nanofax machines.

Because you need to design a firearm from the ground up to be nanoproduced. It's not like the whole premise of nanotechnology is being able to make whatever.
And even if it was a modified AK-97 design, shouldn't that be mentioned in the description? Just in the off chance the writer is aware of 97's existence.

[Eimi]

It's an american thing.

It's surprising just how many negative stereotypes about the French that Americans hold date back to the relatively brief time that American servicemembers were stationed in France after they retook the country from the Germans.

As illustrated (by words) in this pamphlet from the US Government.

And basically the entire "french military incompetence/cowardice" meme is a result of one war where the collaborationist government ordered the military to surrender when it was ready to keep fighting, ignoring the history of the French soldier's almost insane bravery on the battlefield as established in most of the previous 200 or so years. Followed by the nation's populace forming one of the largest armed civilian resistance movements in the face of one of the most brutal occupying forces in the last 200 years, if not history.

It really is fascinating. I mean, it's about as true as sideways asian vaginas, but it just keeps persisting, when there are so many far more valid and accurate reasons to make fun of the French (as there are with any nationality).