War! Gear & Rules, What's good, iffy, needs fixing or a complete revamp? Options

[Adarael]

Ogaki is actually great ghost. Okami/ogami is great spirit/wolf, which is the play on words they used in the video game to rationalize Amaterasu taking the form of a wolf.

Of all of the things to get annoyed at, naming things after the wrong type of item is a very small one; they may not match our naming conventions NOW, but that's not too strange, since it's 60 years in the future. Naming conventions for almost every type of US military hardware has changed since 60 years ago, and I expect it will again. I'm not defending the *intelligence* of some of these names, but I am defending them being different from what you'd expect.

Hell, the BMW sports car in arsenal (a variant of one of the listed types) is the BMW 4000GT, and that doesn't match any BMW naming scheme yet extant. It would probably be the M4, or 450 M Coupe or something, but hey. Naming schemes change. The 2002 doesn't match BMW's current naming scheme either, because they changed to the new type naming scheme when they phased out the Neue Klasse models.

[otakusensei]

Tribute?

Right. Because Lofwyr and Dunkie where such close homies that Goldmaster would want to give his departed buddy a shout out.

I did a spit take when I first read that.

[hermit]

Naming schemes change. The 2002 doesn't match BMW's current naming scheme either, because they changed to the new type naming scheme when they phased out the Neue Klasse models.

It'd be okay if we only had the Kreuzritter. But an aircraft carrier that translates to overprotective mother? Sorry, no.

[sabs]

It'd be okay if we only had the Kreuzritter. But an aircraft carrier that translates to overprotective mother? Sorry, no.

That IS kinda funny (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

Okami IFV: wolf. Could be worse, I guess; IFVs/tanks/APCs don't get names in current practice, so it isn't going against tradition or anything. Well, aside from naming things after land animals to begin with.

Kogeki Fast Attack Vehicle: now this is a howler. Literally translated, this is the "Attack Fast Attack Vehicle".

Suzume Fighter-Bomber: sparrow? Seriously?

Jigoku Ground Assault T-Bird: the "Hell Ground Assault T-Bird". I can't decide if this is better or worse than the Attack FAV.

Tenshi Assault Personnel Carrier Helicopter: the "angel". By miraculous coincidence Japanese helicopter naming convention (to the extent that the helicopters are named at all) is somewhat whimsical—there's a scout helo named the "Ninja"—so this is defensible.

Isokaze-Class Destroyer: good news and bad news. The good news is that this one's spot-on; it follows the convention of destroyers being named after weather, it's an appropriate weather phenomenon, etc. The bad news is, that's because it's a preexisting Destroyer class from 1916.

Hosho-Class Amphibious Assault Carrier [unsure if this is supposed to be Russian or Japanese]: looks Japanese, too much ambiguity in the naming to be sure of what they meant—but the bad news is that this is probably named after the aircraft carrier, which means that the naming convention is off plus we're talking about another collision with preexisting names.

~J

[Sengir]

Keiler sounds sensible then. Something along the line of using boars to rut for truffles? Or plowing open the ground? I've been told boars do that.

Yep, that's why they named a tank with mine flays like that. For a tank which does not plow the earth it doesn't sound that fitting.

For the same reason there are guns called "Crusader"? It sounds tough-guy like.

And exactly for that reason, the current Bundeswehr would not name it like that. The official ideal of a German soldier is that of the "uniformed citizen" with high moral standards, so that never again people will follow criminal orders without questioning their superiors. And for that reason, anything which looks too aggressive is officially frowned upon. In reality, don't make it so obvious that the higher-ups can no longer claim they didn't know.

Paradox? Sure, but that's the way things work.

And I'd say a modern-day US weapon called "Indian killer" would be the better comparison (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Does it have AA duties perhaps?

Yep, still a very unusual word

Tribute?

Anthropomorphic fallacy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

High speed/chase vehicle I guess?

Nope, "missile boat". And while I appreciate the unintentional Mechwarrior reference, in naval lingo a "boat" either is a submarine, or something carried by a ship (68752348752 exceptions nonwithstanding). "Guided missile destroyer" would be a more fitting term.

[Prime Mover]

So if someone was doing a Supplement for a German game.. and they called a Ford Tank: The Ford Capitalist Pig Dog, or the Ford BaconCheeseburger You'd find that.. completely amusing.

Mmmm Bacon

[Ramaloke]

*Points off in the distance*

Thread topic is over there.

(The names in the book have nothing to do with the original purpose of the thread)

*whistles innocently*

[Kagetenshi]

*Points off in the distance*

Thread topic is over there.

(The names in the book have nothing to do with the original purpose of the thread)

*whistles innocently*

You're quite certain you understand what "gear" means, right? You know, the stuff that has these names?

~J

[Aaron]

This is the wrong thing to do, but I'm going to throw in some explanations about the names, because there seems to be some real interest. Those who want to tear me apart (and would do so anyway) are welcome to do so afterward. And to add to the ammo for the folks who want to tell me how much I suck, one of my degrees is in Linguistics, and I lived in West Germany for a time as a teenager.

Let's see ...

• The Keller should be the Keiler, as some folks have noticed.
• Yes, Dunkelzahn is a tribute name. We already do that sort of thing today. While I doubt the authorization for the name came from Lofwyr himself, I reckon he's got enough class to allow the tribute to the fallen rival to stand; maybe he's a complete bastard in your game, that's okay.
• It's called the Glucke because it watches over it's little drones.
• The Vogelhund is named for a vehicle in SOTA 63, and I had nothing to do with naming it. I was thinking to correct it, but after doing a bit of research I discovered that "Vogelhund" is a real surname, so I gave the original author the benefit of the doubt.
• Kreutzritter should have been Kreuzritter. It's a reference to BattleTech (feel free to open up about what a bad person I am for that). Interesting trivia: there's a divide in CGL between CBT and SR people, too; one CGL person was shocked when I stepped away from my empty SR demo to cover a CBT demo.
• I vaguely recall someone saying that Abdullah was Turkish and not Arabic. Someone should probably tell the kings of Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Anyway, this name is a continuation of the push by Ares into Middle Eastern markets (mentioned in Corp Guide).
• Foque isn't French in this case, it's Picard. It's slang for a small flow of customers. Totally unrealistic pun in the world of military equipment names, I grant you, but I didn't think anyone would catch it (nor did I check to see if it meant anything in French).
• Regarding the Suzume, I only lived in Japan for a very brief time, but the friend I was visiting assures me that the understatement is appropriate.

There's what I remember off the top of my head. To those who are interested, enjoy! To those who just want to eviscerate me, that should be enough ammo to keep you busy for a day or two, enjoy!

Merry Everything, everyone!

[sabs]

I a disagree, it asks what needs fixing in the Gear and Rules.
The Gear Name is definitely a part of that.

We're totally on topic!

[Ramaloke]

You're quite certain you understand what "gear" means, right? You know, the stuff that has these names?

~J

/shrug, alright so the names are sort of related, but what I gathered from the OP is that he was wanting a discussion on the mechanics of the new gear. I dont think the names were all that important, I mean, yes, some of these sound silly when you translate it but (since I am an American and *insert some sort of all american comment here), I dont really care about the names and doubt that many other people do. After all it sounds fine if we dont translate it (again, *insert some sort of all american comment here*).

I a disagree, it asks what needs fixing in the Gear and Rules.
The Gear Name is definitely a part of that.

We're totally on topic!

I tried, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

@Sengir: but in the SR timeline, Europe was invaded by Russia and the Caliphate. I think that should be enough to change the perspective on crusading to a more positive one.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Yes, Dunkelzahn is a tribute name. We already do that sort of thing today. While I doubt the authorization for the name came from Lofwyr himself, I reckon he's got enough class to allow the tribute to the fallen rival to stand; maybe he's a complete bastard in your game, that's okay.

Look, this is actually one of the few names that really fits:
Not in spite of him being a complete bastard – but because he is. With a sense of humor. Naming an air superiority fighter like that will really piss off a certain someone living in Denver. Check DotSW.

[hermit]

And to add to the ammo for the folks who want to tell me how much I suck, one of my degrees is in Linguistics, and I lived in West Germany for a time as a teenager.

And since you're not an idiot (I give you the benefit of doubt here), I take it that those names were deliberatly chosen to spite all non-American readers of this book. Well ... speaks for itself, really.

@Sengir: but in the SR timeline, Europe was invaded by Russia and the Caliphate. I think that should be enough to change the perspective on crusading to a more positive one.

Maybe the wacko theocracy in Westphalia (which makes no sense at all) would want that, but other than that, no. Calling things crusader is an American fetish.

[Ascalaphus]

@Aaron: Thanks btw. I always enjoy author commentary on why they did things a particular way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

Regarding the Suzume, I only lived in Japan for a very brief time, but the friend I was visiting assures me that the understatement is appropriate.

Eh, maybe—I can't find a named Japanese-produced fighter-bomber from the post-Imperial Japan era on ja.wikipedia, but the Imperial-era naming tended to things like "falcon", "fire dragon", "dragonslayer", "swift wind", and, granted, "flying swallow"; my above level of incredulity might have been excessive (in my defense, I'd just encountered the Kougeki), but it still seems like a decent-sized additional step towards understatement. In light of the 飛燕, though, I think it can be clearly classified as "not a howler".

~J

[Doc Chase]

Eh, maybe—I can't find a named Japanese-produced fighter-bomber from the post-Imperial Japan era on ja.wikipedia, but the Imperial-era naming tended to things like "falcon", "fire dragon", "dragonslayer", "swift wind", and, granted, "flying swallow"; my above level of incredulity might have been excessive (in my defense, I'd just encountered the Kougeki), but it still seems like a decent-sized additional step towards understatement. In light of the 飛燕, though, I think it can be clearly classified as "not a howler".

~J

I don't believe you ever will, either. I seem to recall that the Japanese are forbidden from manufacturing such military hardware - or forbade themselves from same. After all, they don't even have a standing military, their SDF's are considered police.

[Sengir]

maybe he's a complete bastard in your game, that's okay.

He's a dragon traditionalist in YOUR game. "Shout-out to ma homeboy D-Pac" is the new draconic burial rite?

It's called the Glucke because it watches over it's little drones.

Sounds like just the kind of unflattering name soldiers give their gear, like the self-propelled wheelblock (aka. airmobile weapons carrier Wiesel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ). Not how a company would call it

The Vogelhund is named for a vehicle in SOTA 63, and I had nothing to do with naming it. I was thinking to correct it, but after doing a bit of research I discovered that "Vogelhund" is a real surname, so I gave the original author the benefit of the doubt.

I recently bought some MtG cards from a guy whose name translates as "wifebeater", so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


@Ascalaphus: If anything, those wars increased the size of the local Muslim minority.

[hermit]

Eh, maybe—I can't find a named Japanese-produced fighter-bomber from the post-Imperial Japan era

There're the F-1 and the F-2, both fighter/attacker planes developed in Japan. the F-2 is based on the American F-16 fighter, but has been redesigned to an extent that it'S more a new kind of plane. The F-1 supposedly is an independent development and only totally looks like a Jaguar.

Neither seems to have a special model name though.

[Aaron]

@Aaron: Thanks btw. I always enjoy author commentary on why they did things a particular way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thank you.

I can't speak for other writers, but I love talking about the fiddly bits and niggling details of why things were done the way they were done. I'm one of those people who really like director commentaries on DVDs (check out the one for Ronin; it's really good).

Feel free to ask about they whys of anything. If I don't know the answer, I can find out. Although, quick caveat not directed to any particular person: if you're disingenuously asking me something so you can be rude, I'll still probably answer if the question seems sincere enough, but don't expect to be respected in the future.

[Kagetenshi]

I don't believe you ever will, either. I seem to recall that the Japanese are forbidden from manufacturing such military hardware - or forbade themselves from same.

Tell that to the Ministry of Defense and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, currently producing the 心神 stealth jet fighter. There are several modern Japanese-produced fighter-bombers, they just don't have whimsical names to go along with their designations.

After all, they don't even have a standing military, their SDF's are considered police.

The Japanese constitution forbids the use of war as an instrument of policy, but that's been significantly eroded (in no small part at the behest of the US)—the JSDF was deployed to Iraq in 2004, for example, and they're now officially referred to as a military organization.

Edit:

There're the F-1 and the F-2, both fighter/attacker planes developed in Japan. the F-2 is based on the American F-16 fighter, but has been redesigned to an extent that it'S more a new kind of plane. The F-1 supposedly is an independent development and only totally looks like a Jaguar.

Neither seems to have a special model name though.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "named".

~J

[hermit]

Yeah, that's what I meant by "named".

The difference a little word makes. Sorry, missed that.

As for the 心神, I get mostly images of Raptors looking that up ... is it a licensed build or a plane that is often compared to the F22?

[Kagetenshi]

The latter; after trying to purchase the F22 and being repeatedly turned down, the Japanese government decided to go ahead with their own design.

~J

[LurkerOutThere]

The Missions coordinator person, John Dunn, is the co-developer of War!, so it is rather unlikely to expect no tie-ins to it in Missions, killing yet another working part of Shadowrun productions (what about quality in Missions, is the editing as bad there as in War! and the Almanac?).

For factual correction John Dunn hasn't been missions co-ordinator since roughly the Denver set, or at least before I started playing/writing. Which was several years ago real time, so that shouldn't be a huge concern. As Bull covered in another thread, War will be in, warts and all, optional rules are as always not allowed, the gear will be in but most of the really bad stuff has prohibitively high availability ratings. The magic spells and junk i don't like are problematic but we've already got possession mages in and in my non-official non-universal opinion is that they and peoples poor understanding of the magic rules are actually more of a problem then anything in the war book.

Touching on that point above Hermit, is there some downright silly things in war? Certainly, but that's nothing new, I can't think of a single SR book I own that has some crunch in it, and several that are mostly fluff, that doesn't have some blatantly stupid crap. I'm not sure why, typographical errors non-withstanding, that this ones got you on such a warpath. I'm still working my way through the book and to be honest while it's definitely not my favorite book ever, but i have seen worse. Is that a valid defense for a product? No, it's just my opinion as a customer. I paid for a book, I got a book. It's not amazing but it's not a terrible slur on the product line. To put it in broaderer terms I think it's a Zune and not a first gen Red Ring Xbox360. I know people who like their Zune and get use out of it.

Now in regards to Missions quality, naturally as I work on missions and like to be involved in them as much as possible I think they are pretty good, especially given that our production cycle is to put it bluntly, brutal, and I have been one of the strongest critics of how we do operations internally and externally. Have there been flaws, sure, New York saw three campaign admins over the course of it's life, and that showed in both the release schedule and internal consistency including mission pay and the affiliation rewards/missions. But on the whole I think if you enjoy playing Shadowrun, enjoy the social and persistent aspects of "living" campaigns, or just want some pre-built stuff to either run out of the box or use as a resource missions are a gold mine and well worth the extremely nominal cost.

Refs:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33769

Disclaimer: The above opinions are strictly my own and should only be taken as such. Use only as directed, call your streetdoc if painful irritation persists. Call your shrink if you start to take any of this too seriously.