Are there limits to the dystopia? Options

[TheMadderHatter]

So I'm writing runs for my new group, and it occurs to me that some of the potential outcomes are almost ridiculously evil; bodies stacked like cordwood at the hands of entirely pragmatic sociopaths trying to incite racial hatred, for instance. This causes me to wonder if, in all the dystopian goodness that makes Shadowrun so fun, other groups assign limits on just how disturbing things can get, whether as actual in-game events or as distant specters used for hypothetical, illustrative purposes only.

Thus I ask: do you limit or otherwise sanitize the world of Shadowrun relative to the real world, de-emphasizing those things we as a society consider especially heinous, or do you find them acceptable for use as plot devices?

[Draco18s]

Given that I've attempted to write a Run whereby the players end up doing something outright heinous*..... no.

*By which I mean, to concoct a series of events that in retrospect illicit the "oh god, we just murdered orphans" feeling, but at the time they occur appears as a perfectly logical series of choices that isn't resulting in harm for anyone.

[Critias]

It all comes down to the individual gaming group/table, and what they're okay with. There's a lot of Shadowrun-appropriate ground out there, things that would "fit" just fine into canon without rocking the boat by being too gritty or too goody-two-shoes. You can get a lot of games somewhere between Leverage and Sin City, and not break the suspension of disbelief by occasionally veering more closely to one than the other.

Personally, I'll tend to play it a little more PG-13 with a new group (initially) until I know what individual players are and aren't comfortable with.

[Kagetenshi]

Well, the game has always assumed at least a marginal conscience on the part of the Runners, even when that's a dumb assumption—IIRC Brainscan operates under the assumption that the players are going to betray their employer at some point over scruples (scruples that I personally assume would have been left behind somewhere before "thou shalt not shoot people right in the face for money"), and I think there was an adventure that has the Runners hired to poison a whole bunch of metahumans and assumes that they're going to figure it out and refuse.

Personally, I've tried to weed out those limits. I'll admit that I naturally veer away from including things like, say, sexual violence, but that's just because it's something I have difficulty introducing, not because I want to sanitize the world. By all rights, it should be happening, and I would be a better GM if I didn't have this hang-up.

~J

[Critias]

I remember early in the Secrets of Power Trilogy, someone had hired Ghost, Sally, and crew to spread a chemical in a rival office building. They were told it was knockout gas or something, and had the 'run all set -- janitorial scrubs, scamming their way into the building as a replacement night crew, mopping all over or something to spread the chemical, all that sort of thing, ready to go.

Then Sam realized it was a crazy lethal neurotoxin, and they hit the brakes and got all pissed at Mr. Johnson. Not necessarily because they would've been killing an office full of people who'd done them no wrong -- but because they hadn't been paid for that scale of work. They didn't refuse the job because it was morally wrong, but because Johnson had tried to play them. So players -- with the right mindset -- can still occasionally make the "right" choice despite their general disregard for the sanctity of life, or something...even if they're making that choice for the "wrong" reasons, the storyline can still end up with them refusing especially dirty work, and that sort of thing.

Overall, though, the absolutely crucial thing to remember about morality, dystopia, etc, etc (in Shadowrun or any other game, really), is to try and get everyone on the same page. It hardly ever worked out when you had a Paladin and a Necromancer in the same game over in D&D, and sometimes it can take some juggling to keep everyone happy in Shadowrun, too. It's always a good idea to talk over some general story arc ideas or "movie ratings scale" type stuff with players OOC, in my opinion.

[TheMadderHatter]

I see. I have fewer compunctions about having the runners (unwittingly) install disguised gas grenades containing combat drugs and hallucinogens in high school classrooms, then. Naturally, at least one of them is going to go off while it's being installed to warn them (and as one of the PCs attends the high school in question, I'm not relying entirely on altruism to get them to hunt down the callous Johnson behind it).

[Draco18s]

I remember early in the Secrets of Power Trilogy, someone had hired Ghost, Sally, and crew to spread a chemical in a rival office building. They were told it was knockout gas or something, and had the 'run all set -- janitorial scrubs, scamming their way into the building as a replacement night crew, mopping all over or something to spread the chemical, all that sort of thing, ready to go.

I thought that was Never Deal With a Dragon, where the chemical was harmless*....unless mixed with the cleaning chemicals, then it was deadly.

*Inhaling it caused people to be out a few days with an acute cold.

[Critias]

I thought that was Never Deal With a Dragon, where the chemical was harmless*....unless mixed with the cleaning chemicals, then it was deadly.

*Inhaling it caused people to be out a few days with an acute cold.

Right. NDWAD was the first book in the Secrets of Power trilogy.

[Kagetenshi]

I see. I have fewer compunctions about having the runners (unwittingly) install disguised gas grenades containing combat drugs and hallucinogens in high school classrooms, then.

Well, you probably should have some compunctions about that. I mean, what's the point? I could see toxins, but even in Shadowrun the students are unlikely to be heavily armed enough to cause much mayhem to the outside world.

Naturally, at least one of them is going to go off while it's being installed to warn them

That, um, sounds like quite the opposite of "natural", in fact. "Contrivedly", maybe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(and as one of the PCs attends the high school in question, I'm not relying entirely on altruism to get them to hunt down the callous Johnson behind it).

He hasn't dropped out yet? I have serious reservations about your runner team (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

~J

[Critias]

He hasn't dropped out yet? I have serious reservations about your runner team (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Kids these days! No respect for shadowrunner tradition!

[Draco18s]

Right. NDWAD was the first book in the Secrets of Power trilogy.

Derp.

[TheMadderHatter]

That, um, sounds like quite the opposite of "natural", in fact. "Contrivedly", maybe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

See an earlier thread on multiple runner teams. There are three teams, counting the PCs, trying to get these things installed, and paid on a per-installation basis (each installation point can only hold one), due primarily to a misunderstanding as to the exact conditions of payment on the part of the other two. Sooner or later someone's going to get the idea to just chuck an opposing team's hardware against a wall.

And the point is to get lots of chaos, mayhem, and bodily harm out of the children of Humanis members (it's a private high school that runs with several unspoken understandings among the entirely human board of trustees), ideally in a form that looks horrifying when "leaked" if not outright broadcast. The aforementioned callous Johnson is a rather psychotic racist under the impression that recent anti-meta sentiment has grown a bit lax, and he intends to direct the resultant outrage and own-kid's-butt-covering scapegoat search of the irate parents towards whatever primarily nonhuman gang he can most readily frame for "making our darling children go nuts in some sick idea of revenge".

Yes, it makes no sense. The man is insane.

I maintain that my plots are no dumber than the mental cases driving them.

[kzt]

I'll admit that I naturally veer away from including things like, say, sexual violence, but that's just because it's something I have difficulty introducing, not because I want to sanitize the world. By all rights, it should be happening, and I would be a better GM if I didn't have this hang-up.

I think you are correct in what you do. Sexual violence tends to break up games.

[TheFr0g]

I designed a run once where the team was to kidnap a kid for a rich child pornographer. I'd fully intended to give them many outs, and even offer them a counter offer from the kids parents to take out their original employer, but to my surprise they just refused the run. This from guys who'd gladly murdered and pillaged in the past. I was kinda proud of them... too bad we ended up playing video games that night because it was all I'd had prepared.

[Laodicea]

The limits are the logical limits. Don't make evil for evils sake. There's no profit in it for the big players. Individuals might do it because they are dysfunctional & sick.

[tagz]

Every time I think that my ideas or plans might be going a little too far in the dystopian setting I end up seeing something on the news that makes me realize that if it (or something like it) can happen in the real world then it sure as hell can happen in the sixth world.

[Draco18s]

I designed a run once where the team was to kidnap a kid for a rich child pornographer. I'd fully intended to give them many outs, and even offer them a counter offer from the kids parents to take out their original employer, but to my surprise they just refused the run. This from guys who'd gladly murdered and pillaged in the past. I was kinda proud of them... too bad we ended up playing video games that night because it was all I'd had prepared.

That's why I want a game that doesn't seem outright evil when the players accept the job. Every step along the way gives them an out, but the out is always harder than going ahead, and the farther they go, the more difficult both choices become, right up to the final event at which point its revealed that they (the players) had done some awful, awful things, but because of the blinders they had on (figuratively speaking) they weren't aware of it when they made their choices.

Eg:

Mr. J goes to the runners "I need to find a kid. *description*"
When asked he goes, "Yes, he ran away from home a few weeks ago. He might not want to come with you."

Runners capture a kid matching the description. Kid makes all kinds of excuses. Runners ignore it because of what the J said.
Runners bring kid back to the "loving father" they assume the J is. Runners exchange kid for cash

Mr. J as a parting remark, "Excellent, he'll make a wonderful sex slave. I'm so glad you found me my new actor."

[Critias]

Mr. J as a parting remark, "Excellent, he'll make a wonderful sex slave. I'm so glad you found me my new actor."

Which is when Mr. Predator IV says "blam," and the adventure ends. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

When I introduce some of the darker stuff -- bunraku parlors, girls snatched off the street and forced into prostitution, parents selling their children for drug money -- it's pointedly done to give the players something to react to, and generally to react to violently. The setting is still shown to be plenty grim and gritty, nothing has to be glossed over to fit primetime television standards or whatever...but the players themselves still get to feel like good guys. It's a win/win, in my opinion.

[kzt]

Yeah, it's usually not a good sign when the players decide to go to the greyhound station to collect teen runaways as part of a money making scheme. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

Which is when Mr. Predator IV says "blam," and the adventure ends. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Right, on account of someone that stupid is going to end up blabbing about your team somewhere. I mean, seriously, does he proceed to cackle with maniacal glee afterwards? Are the players all supposed to hiss and boo when he comes on-scene?

~J

[Draco18s]

Which is when Mr. Predator IV says "blam," and the adventure ends. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Because someone was dumb enough to let the players have guns at the negotiation table....

In any case, it was a one-step example. The run I wish I could write would involve multiple missions over the course of weeks (in game and out) building up to a final climax where the players' should respond with something along the lines of, "Wow, I am a terrible person. I think I'll just turn myself over to the cops, 'cause that'll be less painful than living this up."

[Critias]

Because someone was dumb enough to let the players have guns at the negotiation table....

1) If the guy's dumb enough to go "Thanks for the sex slave, suckers. Got'cha! You've been Punk'd!" then, yeah, he's probably dumb enough to let them bring guns to the negotiation table.

2) Be honest, doesn't your average runner team have plenty of other ways to kill someone, that security can't catch? I mostly posted that the Predator "says" something just as a response to the dastardly, mustachio-twirling, Johnson saying something. It could easily be replaced with "Mr. Cyberspur says snikt," or "Mr. Fist says thwak," or "Mr. Manabolt says szork," or whatever. The point was that he'd end up dead, either for playing them like that, or just for having the hobby he has.

In any case, it was a one-step example. The run I wish I could write would involve multiple missions over the course of weeks (in game and out) building up to a final climax where the players' should respond with something along the lines of, "Wow, I am a terrible person. I think I'll just turn myself over to the cops, 'cause that'll be less painful than living this up."

I guess maybe you just have a different idea of "fun" than I do, when I design an adventure.

If I were to run anything remotely like that, it would be them returning the runaway to his "parent," and then finding out the truth some other way, as an immediate set-up to go get the kid back and ice the pedo.

[kzt]

I did that one once, but it was a guy who collected girls who looked like his ex. They managed to shoot him before he set off the bomb in the briefcase that contained his payment to them. This was after they figured out he wasn't exactly the father wanting to reconcile with his college-age daughter that he said he was (due to a series of mysterious disappearances of similar looking women over the years) , so they decided to not turn her over to him.

[Draco18s]

1) If the guy's dumb enough to go "Thanks for the sex slave, suckers. Got'cha! You've been Punk'd!" then, yeah, he's probably dumb enough to let them bring guns to the negotiation table.

2) Be honest, doesn't your average runner team have plenty of other ways to kill someone, that security can't catch?

It also doesn't have to be the Johnson that says it. Could be on the news the next morning, "Child find abducted, parents worried their son is now a sex slave."

[Kagetenshi]

If I were to run anything remotely like that, it would be them returning the runaway to his "parent," and then finding out the truth some other way, as an immediate set-up to go get the kid back and ice the pedo.

Why would they, though? And the description sounds like he's a businessman.

~J