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TheMadderHatter
So I'm writing runs for my new group, and it occurs to me that some of the potential outcomes are almost ridiculously evil; bodies stacked like cordwood at the hands of entirely pragmatic sociopaths trying to incite racial hatred, for instance. This causes me to wonder if, in all the dystopian goodness that makes Shadowrun so fun, other groups assign limits on just how disturbing things can get, whether as actual in-game events or as distant specters used for hypothetical, illustrative purposes only.

Thus I ask: do you limit or otherwise sanitize the world of Shadowrun relative to the real world, de-emphasizing those things we as a society consider especially heinous, or do you find them acceptable for use as plot devices?
Draco18s
Given that I've attempted to write a Run whereby the players end up doing something outright heinous*..... no.

*By which I mean, to concoct a series of events that in retrospect illicit the "oh god, we just murdered orphans" feeling, but at the time they occur appears as a perfectly logical series of choices that isn't resulting in harm for anyone.
Critias
It all comes down to the individual gaming group/table, and what they're okay with. There's a lot of Shadowrun-appropriate ground out there, things that would "fit" just fine into canon without rocking the boat by being too gritty or too goody-two-shoes. You can get a lot of games somewhere between Leverage and Sin City, and not break the suspension of disbelief by occasionally veering more closely to one than the other.

Personally, I'll tend to play it a little more PG-13 with a new group (initially) until I know what individual players are and aren't comfortable with.
Kagetenshi
Well, the game has always assumed at least a marginal conscience on the part of the Runners, even when that's a dumb assumption—IIRC Brainscan operates under the assumption that the players are going to betray their employer at some point over scruples (scruples that I personally assume would have been left behind somewhere before "thou shalt not shoot people right in the face for money"), and I think there was an adventure that has the Runners hired to poison a whole bunch of metahumans and assumes that they're going to figure it out and refuse.

Personally, I've tried to weed out those limits. I'll admit that I naturally veer away from including things like, say, sexual violence, but that's just because it's something I have difficulty introducing, not because I want to sanitize the world. By all rights, it should be happening, and I would be a better GM if I didn't have this hang-up.

~J
Critias
I remember early in the Secrets of Power Trilogy, someone had hired Ghost, Sally, and crew to spread a chemical in a rival office building. They were told it was knockout gas or something, and had the 'run all set -- janitorial scrubs, scamming their way into the building as a replacement night crew, mopping all over or something to spread the chemical, all that sort of thing, ready to go.

Then Sam realized it was a crazy lethal neurotoxin, and they hit the brakes and got all pissed at Mr. Johnson. Not necessarily because they would've been killing an office full of people who'd done them no wrong -- but because they hadn't been paid for that scale of work. They didn't refuse the job because it was morally wrong, but because Johnson had tried to play them. So players -- with the right mindset -- can still occasionally make the "right" choice despite their general disregard for the sanctity of life, or something...even if they're making that choice for the "wrong" reasons, the storyline can still end up with them refusing especially dirty work, and that sort of thing.

Overall, though, the absolutely crucial thing to remember about morality, dystopia, etc, etc (in Shadowrun or any other game, really), is to try and get everyone on the same page. It hardly ever worked out when you had a Paladin and a Necromancer in the same game over in D&D, and sometimes it can take some juggling to keep everyone happy in Shadowrun, too. It's always a good idea to talk over some general story arc ideas or "movie ratings scale" type stuff with players OOC, in my opinion.
TheMadderHatter
I see. I have fewer compunctions about having the runners (unwittingly) install disguised gas grenades containing combat drugs and hallucinogens in high school classrooms, then. Naturally, at least one of them is going to go off while it's being installed to warn them (and as one of the PCs attends the high school in question, I'm not relying entirely on altruism to get them to hunt down the callous Johnson behind it).
Draco18s
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 30 2010, 04:13 PM) *
I remember early in the Secrets of Power Trilogy, someone had hired Ghost, Sally, and crew to spread a chemical in a rival office building. They were told it was knockout gas or something, and had the 'run all set -- janitorial scrubs, scamming their way into the building as a replacement night crew, mopping all over or something to spread the chemical, all that sort of thing, ready to go.


I thought that was Never Deal With a Dragon, where the chemical was harmless*....unless mixed with the cleaning chemicals, then it was deadly.

*Inhaling it caused people to be out a few days with an acute cold.
Critias
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 30 2010, 04:22 PM) *
I thought that was Never Deal With a Dragon, where the chemical was harmless*....unless mixed with the cleaning chemicals, then it was deadly.

*Inhaling it caused people to be out a few days with an acute cold.

Right. NDWAD was the first book in the Secrets of Power trilogy.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (TheMadderHatter @ Dec 30 2010, 04:20 PM) *
I see. I have fewer compunctions about having the runners (unwittingly) install disguised gas grenades containing combat drugs and hallucinogens in high school classrooms, then.

Well, you probably should have some compunctions about that. I mean, what's the point? I could see toxins, but even in Shadowrun the students are unlikely to be heavily armed enough to cause much mayhem to the outside world.

QUOTE
Naturally, at least one of them is going to go off while it's being installed to warn them

That, um, sounds like quite the opposite of "natural", in fact. "Contrivedly", maybe wink.gif

QUOTE
(and as one of the PCs attends the high school in question, I'm not relying entirely on altruism to get them to hunt down the callous Johnson behind it).

He hasn't dropped out yet? I have serious reservations about your runner team smile.gif

~J
Critias
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 30 2010, 04:24 PM) *
He hasn't dropped out yet? I have serious reservations about your runner team smile.gif

Kids these days! No respect for shadowrunner tradition!
Draco18s
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 30 2010, 04:23 PM) *
Right. NDWAD was the first book in the Secrets of Power trilogy.


Derp.
TheMadderHatter
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 30 2010, 04:24 PM) *
That, um, sounds like quite the opposite of "natural", in fact. "Contrivedly", maybe wink.gif


See an earlier thread on multiple runner teams. There are three teams, counting the PCs, trying to get these things installed, and paid on a per-installation basis (each installation point can only hold one), due primarily to a misunderstanding as to the exact conditions of payment on the part of the other two. Sooner or later someone's going to get the idea to just chuck an opposing team's hardware against a wall.

And the point is to get lots of chaos, mayhem, and bodily harm out of the children of Humanis members (it's a private high school that runs with several unspoken understandings among the entirely human board of trustees), ideally in a form that looks horrifying when "leaked" if not outright broadcast. The aforementioned callous Johnson is a rather psychotic racist under the impression that recent anti-meta sentiment has grown a bit lax, and he intends to direct the resultant outrage and own-kid's-butt-covering scapegoat search of the irate parents towards whatever primarily nonhuman gang he can most readily frame for "making our darling children go nuts in some sick idea of revenge".

Yes, it makes no sense. The man is insane.

I maintain that my plots are no dumber than the mental cases driving them.
kzt
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 30 2010, 03:00 PM) *
I'll admit that I naturally veer away from including things like, say, sexual violence, but that's just because it's something I have difficulty introducing, not because I want to sanitize the world. By all rights, it should be happening, and I would be a better GM if I didn't have this hang-up.

I think you are correct in what you do. Sexual violence tends to break up games.
TheFr0g
I designed a run once where the team was to kidnap a kid for a rich child pornographer. I'd fully intended to give them many outs, and even offer them a counter offer from the kids parents to take out their original employer, but to my surprise they just refused the run. This from guys who'd gladly murdered and pillaged in the past. I was kinda proud of them... too bad we ended up playing video games that night because it was all I'd had prepared.
Laodicea
The limits are the logical limits. Don't make evil for evils sake. There's no profit in it for the big players. Individuals might do it because they are dysfunctional & sick.
tagz
Every time I think that my ideas or plans might be going a little too far in the dystopian setting I end up seeing something on the news that makes me realize that if it (or something like it) can happen in the real world then it sure as hell can happen in the sixth world.
Draco18s
QUOTE (TheFr0g @ Dec 30 2010, 05:29 PM) *
I designed a run once where the team was to kidnap a kid for a rich child pornographer. I'd fully intended to give them many outs, and even offer them a counter offer from the kids parents to take out their original employer, but to my surprise they just refused the run. This from guys who'd gladly murdered and pillaged in the past. I was kinda proud of them... too bad we ended up playing video games that night because it was all I'd had prepared.


That's why I want a game that doesn't seem outright evil when the players accept the job. Every step along the way gives them an out, but the out is always harder than going ahead, and the farther they go, the more difficult both choices become, right up to the final event at which point its revealed that they (the players) had done some awful, awful things, but because of the blinders they had on (figuratively speaking) they weren't aware of it when they made their choices.

Eg:

Mr. J goes to the runners "I need to find a kid. *description*"
When asked he goes, "Yes, he ran away from home a few weeks ago. He might not want to come with you."

Runners capture a kid matching the description. Kid makes all kinds of excuses. Runners ignore it because of what the J said.
Runners bring kid back to the "loving father" they assume the J is. Runners exchange kid for cash

Mr. J as a parting remark, "Excellent, he'll make a wonderful sex slave. I'm so glad you found me my new actor."
Critias
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 30 2010, 06:04 PM) *
Mr. J as a parting remark, "Excellent, he'll make a wonderful sex slave. I'm so glad you found me my new actor."

Which is when Mr. Predator IV says "blam," and the adventure ends. wink.gif

When I introduce some of the darker stuff -- bunraku parlors, girls snatched off the street and forced into prostitution, parents selling their children for drug money -- it's pointedly done to give the players something to react to, and generally to react to violently. The setting is still shown to be plenty grim and gritty, nothing has to be glossed over to fit primetime television standards or whatever...but the players themselves still get to feel like good guys. It's a win/win, in my opinion.
kzt
Yeah, it's usually not a good sign when the players decide to go to the greyhound station to collect teen runaways as part of a money making scheme. devil.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 30 2010, 06:10 PM) *
Which is when Mr. Predator IV says "blam," and the adventure ends. wink.gif

Right, on account of someone that stupid is going to end up blabbing about your team somewhere. I mean, seriously, does he proceed to cackle with maniacal glee afterwards? Are the players all supposed to hiss and boo when he comes on-scene?

~J
Draco18s
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 30 2010, 06:10 PM) *
Which is when Mr. Predator IV says "blam," and the adventure ends. wink.gif


Because someone was dumb enough to let the players have guns at the negotiation table....

In any case, it was a one-step example. The run I wish I could write would involve multiple missions over the course of weeks (in game and out) building up to a final climax where the players' should respond with something along the lines of, "Wow, I am a terrible person. I think I'll just turn myself over to the cops, 'cause that'll be less painful than living this up."
Critias
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 30 2010, 07:18 PM) *
Because someone was dumb enough to let the players have guns at the negotiation table....

1) If the guy's dumb enough to go "Thanks for the sex slave, suckers. Got'cha! You've been Punk'd!" then, yeah, he's probably dumb enough to let them bring guns to the negotiation table.

2) Be honest, doesn't your average runner team have plenty of other ways to kill someone, that security can't catch? I mostly posted that the Predator "says" something just as a response to the dastardly, mustachio-twirling, Johnson saying something. It could easily be replaced with "Mr. Cyberspur says snikt," or "Mr. Fist says thwak," or "Mr. Manabolt says szork," or whatever. The point was that he'd end up dead, either for playing them like that, or just for having the hobby he has.

QUOTE
In any case, it was a one-step example. The run I wish I could write would involve multiple missions over the course of weeks (in game and out) building up to a final climax where the players' should respond with something along the lines of, "Wow, I am a terrible person. I think I'll just turn myself over to the cops, 'cause that'll be less painful than living this up."

I guess maybe you just have a different idea of "fun" than I do, when I design an adventure.

If I were to run anything remotely like that, it would be them returning the runaway to his "parent," and then finding out the truth some other way, as an immediate set-up to go get the kid back and ice the pedo.
kzt
I did that one once, but it was a guy who collected girls who looked like his ex. They managed to shoot him before he set off the bomb in the briefcase that contained his payment to them. This was after they figured out he wasn't exactly the father wanting to reconcile with his college-age daughter that he said he was (due to a series of mysterious disappearances of similar looking women over the years) , so they decided to not turn her over to him.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 30 2010, 07:24 PM) *
1) If the guy's dumb enough to go "Thanks for the sex slave, suckers. Got'cha! You've been Punk'd!" then, yeah, he's probably dumb enough to let them bring guns to the negotiation table.

2) Be honest, doesn't your average runner team have plenty of other ways to kill someone, that security can't catch?


It also doesn't have to be the Johnson that says it. Could be on the news the next morning, "Child find abducted, parents worried their son is now a sex slave."
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 30 2010, 07:24 PM) *
If I were to run anything remotely like that, it would be them returning the runaway to his "parent," and then finding out the truth some other way, as an immediate set-up to go get the kid back and ice the pedo.

Why would they, though? And the description sounds like he's a businessman.

~J
KamikazePilot
QUOTE (TheMadderHatter @ Dec 31 2010, 07:50 AM) *
So I'm writing runs for my new group, and it occurs to me that some of the potential outcomes are almost ridiculously evil; bodies stacked like cordwood at the hands of entirely pragmatic sociopaths trying to incite racial hatred, for instance. This causes me to wonder if, in all the dystopian goodness that makes Shadowrun so fun, other groups assign limits on just how disturbing things can get, whether as actual in-game events or as distant specters used for hypothetical, illustrative purposes only.

Thus I ask: do you limit or otherwise sanitize the world of Shadowrun relative to the real world, de-emphasizing those things we as a society consider especially heinous, or do you find them acceptable for use as plot devices?


In my games the darkness of ther events is based on the maturty of the group I'm running. My current group are rather mature and most of them are my close friends so I can run ALMOST anything and they will be ok with it. In the past though I had one player who got offended at a male NPC making a pass at his male PC. He shot the NPC outright in the middle of a crowded nightclub. It surprised the whole group because the dude was usualy quiet and we had trouble getting him to participate but aparently he was quite clear on how he felt about homosexuality. So I steered clear of any mature content while he was playing.

But that doesnt mean even with my current group I can get away with emotionaly heavy content. especially if its without reason.

The way i see it introducing such heavy content MUST have a purpose. Not just get the runners some money and move on.
My train of thought usualy goes like this:
A: Millions of mission options available. If i pick something with HEAVY content then WHY? If no purpose then PICK SOMETHING ELSE.
B: Mission purpose MUST satisfy 2 criteria.
1. Evoke an emotional responce to test the player characters (whis inadvertently tests the players too so be carefull) and see how they respond.
2. Players must be given full oportunity to make nice, tie off loose ends and/or finalise the problem.

so basically IF i chose to introduce such content for the purpose of emotional responce (which always follows) THEN the players MUST be allowed to sort the mess out completely.
say if i allowed them to go kidnap some kids for purposes of sex slave business then i cant just let the mission end and tell them "oh btw these will be my new slaves..thanks alot". the runners will not accept any more missions and will be on permanent free form and work to find THAT johnson and kill him. if i dont allow them he whole gaming group will be over. so letting them have the oportunity to make good with themselves is PARAMOUNT.
at the very least if you let them know by some trick play that they were part of some heinous activity then let them have the chance to make amends OR never let them know (in which case the whole mission was just for the GM's pleasure and then you are one sick sick puppy)
Critias
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 30 2010, 07:55 PM) *
Why would they, though? And the description sounds like he's a businessman.

~J

Putting aside questions of basic decency and humanity for a second (assuming, falsely, that automatically criminals-for-hire are all people who are okay with pedophile sex slavery), let's just look at some professional reasons: Because they were lied to, because he gloated to them about it, or because a kidnapping job should pay more than a retrieval job, since the legal risks are greater, right off the top of my head. You don't get paid the same to drive someone across town as you do to break them out of a secure facility and drive them across town, right?

Hell, they should probably have a few choice words with their local Fixer, too, for setting them up with such a client in the first place (without researching him at all), and with their team tech wizard for missing some clues, while they're at it.
KamikazePilot
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 31 2010, 11:50 AM) *
It also doesn't have to be the Johnson that says it. Could be on the news the next morning, "Child find abducted, parents worried their son is now a sex slave."


regardless of how they find out. if you the GM decided they MUST know that they were played with then you are introducing problems for yourself. Basic human nature and decency will take over and you now have the working of a free formed mission that has no guaranteed payment for the runners except emotional tying of loose ends.
Whoever double crossed them now earns Enemy for Life and this time the enemy has nothing better to do then devote 100% of time, effort and resources into making amends.

You better be good at making mission plots on the fly as any prewritted jobs you had are out of the question until your runners sort this mess out.
and if they are good at finding some randomly insiginifcant data about usual jobs you give them rest assured they will find the person who double crossed them.
at times like that you end up feeling sorry for the Johnson because he may be tortured for days (happened before so i try not to run too HEAVY content)
Draco18s
Which is fine. I just want to get to that point because it makes good story.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 30 2010, 08:02 PM) *
Putting aside questions of basic decency and humanity for a second (assuming, falsely, that automatically criminals-for-hire are all people who are okay with pedophile sex slavery)

I didn't say they were ok with it, but there's a big difference between being ok with it and turning down the job, and an even bigger difference between being ok with it and being willing to go out of your way to extract revenge (and additionally reverse-extract the target).

QUOTE
let's just look at some professional reasons: Because they were lied to, because he gloated to them about it, or because a kidnapping job should pay more than a retrieval job, since the legal risks are greater, right off the top of my head. You don't get paid the same to drive someone across town as you do to break them out of a secure facility and drive them across town, right?

Those are all reasons not to take the job, or not to complete it. They could even be reasons for hunting down the target. Getting the kid back involves additional exposure for no gain—you're getting into some serious robin-hooding there.

It should be noted, the position I advocate is distinct from encouraging characters to be devoid of conscience. What I find dubious is when Shadowrunners end up listening to their conscience so much, particularly when it results in so much additional effort, expense, and most especially risk.

~J
Critias
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 30 2010, 08:20 PM) *
Those are all reasons not to take the job, or not to complete it.

It's kind of hard to turn down the job, or to not complete it, when the scenario as presented tells us the "got'cha" moment comes at the end of the adventure, after they've handed the kid over. I think "parting comment" from Mr. Johnson was the exact turn of phrase used.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 30 2010, 08:37 PM) *
It's kind of hard to turn down the job, or to not complete it, when the scenario as presented tells us the "got'cha" moment comes at the end of the adventure, after they've handed the kid over. I think "parting comment" from Mr. Johnson was the exact turn of phrase used.

Right. My point is that they're considerations at that stage, if you get the opportunity. Being lied to is expected. Being gloated to suggests that the J is leaky as far as information, and killing him might be a good call. The pay issue depends on the details. None of this is making a case for doing anything about the kid except maybe killing him (I was going to say "or Laesing him", but that stuff's expensive), since he's now a potential witness against you.

~J
Critias
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 30 2010, 10:55 PM) *
Right. My point is that they're considerations at that stage, if you get the opportunity. Being lied to is expected. Being gloated to suggests that the J is leaky as far as information, and killing him might be a good call. The pay issue depends on the details. None of this is making a case for doing anything about the kid except maybe killing him (I was going to say "or Laesing him", but that stuff's expensive), since he's now a potential witness against you.

~J

Which, again, is assuming that the characters are the sort, and that the overall feel of the campaign is the sort, where "yeah, murder the little kid that we thought was a runaway, but that we actually kidnapped and delivered to a pedophile" makes perfect sense to all the characters involved. If you're running a game where the response to Mr. Johnson winking and thanking them for delivering them a fun new fucktoy is for them to laugh, flash him a thumbs up or share a fist bump, and eat some Ment-o's, that's cool.

But I'll just say that I don't think that's exactly the norm. At least, I can safely say it isn't with the groups I've gamed with.

At any rate, I guess we're just demonstrating that the "limits to the dystopia" vary from player to player and GM to GM.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 30 2010, 11:09 PM) *
If you're running a game where the response to Mr. Johnson winking and thanking them for delivering them a fun new fucktoy is for them to laugh, flash him a thumbs up or share a fist bump, and eat some Ment-o's, that's cool.

That's an entirely different kind of group from the one I'm describing. You did catch the part where I've been encouraging killing the Johnson as a reasonable response, right (at least in the contrived gloating-with-maniacal-laughter scenario)?

Edit: if you're reading this out of my statement earlier that "he sounds like he's a businessman", that wasn't to say that oh, it's all right then, but to distinguish three different (possibly overlapping) types of people: pedophiles, direct child sexual abusers, and child pornographers. The first is a characteristic of arousal, and need not (indeed, does not—literature's available) imply or be implied by the second or third. The second is often conflated with the first, which I think is worthy of correction, but all we actually know from the setup is that the Johnson is the third. Money and a sufficient lack of scruples (implied in the fact that he's hiring Shadowrunners!) are reason enough for that, with no jollies needing to be involved.

Remember, if people needed to be monsters to do horrible things, the world would be a much better place.

QUOTE
At any rate, I guess we're just demonstrating that the "limits to the dystopia" vary from player to player and GM to GM.

This is certainly true.

~J
Draco18s
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 30 2010, 10:55 PM) *
Being gloated to suggests that the J is leaky as far as information, and killing him might be a good call.


Mmm...shooting messengers...my new favorite hobby.

Remember, just because the J hired you doesn't mean he's the one wanting some result, he could be working for someone else. So go ahead and kill him, you still handed over a child to a pedophile and killing Mr. J didn't fix that.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 31 2010, 12:21 AM) *
Mmm...shooting messengers...my new favorite hobby.

Remember, just because the J hired you doesn't mean he's the one wanting some result, he could be working for someone else. So go ahead and kill him, you still handed over a child to a pedophile and killing Mr. J didn't fix that.

But that's not the part that needs fixing. The part that needs fixing is that you've done business with someone who can't keep their mouth shut.

~J
Critias
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 31 2010, 12:21 AM) *
Remember, just because the J hired you doesn't mean he's the one wanting some result, he could be working for someone else. So go ahead and kill him, you still handed over a child to a pedophile and killing Mr. J didn't fix that.

The scenario, as presented, had Mr. J making his smug comment as the players handed the kid over to him. So, well, yeah. If you shoot him in the face as he's smirking at you, ta-da, the kid's no longer in his hands, right? You handed him over to a pedophile long enough to collect credsticks, but unless he was doing something nasty to the kid under the table while handing you your money, I don't think it really counts as "handed over a child," because killing Mr. J does fix that.

All that's left is thanking the corpse for being dumb enough to break character as a "loving father" and say something like "Excellent, he'll make a wonderful sex slave." to end the conversation, and then maybe hollering at your hacker for not doing his homework/legwork. wink.gif

That's kind of what was supposed to make the "Mr. J says ______, huh? Well, Mr. Predator says blam!" funny in the first place, before it got turned into a whole side argument that several of us decided to start nit-picking over and adding to, or taking away from, the little scenario that was presented in your original post.
Megu
I guess I see SR's dystopia as best used as dystopia with a purpose: the dystopic aspects are directly related to the domination of the world by the corporations, the ravishing of the global environment and so forth. It gives the setting some thematic meat if it connects to real issues like that. If you add grimdark for grimdark's sake on top of that, then you kind of lose that connection. The dystopia no longer has as much of a point, and you wake up one morning and realize you're playing WH40K.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 31 2010, 12:31 AM) *
The scenario, as presented, had Mr. J making his smug comment as the players handed the kid over to him. So, well, yeah. If you shoot him in the face as he's smirking at you, ta-da, the kid's no longer in his hands, right? You handed him over to a pedophile long enough to collect credsticks, but unless he was doing something nasty to the kid under the table while handing you your money, I don't think it really counts as "handed over a child," because killing Mr. J does fix that.


First off, let me emphasize quick example a little bit more. I'm pretty sure I devoted about 5 words to each step.

Second off, the J wouldn't even make such a comment until the point at which the kid is 1) no longer in the bloody room and 2) where the runner's can't get to him/her.
KamikazePilot
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 1 2011, 01:43 AM) *
First off, let me emphasize quick example a little bit more. I'm pretty sure I devoted about 5 words to each step.

Second off, the J wouldn't even make such a comment until the point at which the kid is 1) no longer in the bloody room and 2) where the runner's can't get to him/her.


The point is regardless HOW or WHEN the runners find out they are part of something nasty they will take measures to do somethig about it. I know my group of players would.
The other point any such Johnson worth his life would NEVER gloat as he may be willing to use the naive runners again and again feeding them plausible different stories.
IF the johnson never reveals the REAL story and the runner NEVER find out then the whole WEIRD aspect of the whole deal is in the GMs mind. Think about it. If there is a twist to the story as laid out in the Con of the job given then if that twist is never revealed then its simple GM satisfying his own weird desires as far as the players are concerned they just did Job A which was a simple retrieval etc etc etc.
They may even feel good about themselves. This is all fine.

Whats not fine if you chose to present such vile content and never let the player know about it. So we are back to the GM being a twisted fuck satifying his own desires.
I'm a firm believer that anything twisted must have a reason and allowed to be atoned for if you so chose to let it play in the world you are running. Unless you are GMing for a group pf sociapaths most humans will pause any gaming and engage in severe metagaming once the hard content gets introduced (unless they are said sociopaths).

i'm just saying. dont bring content just for the sake of it. there are million and one mission options you can run. WHY pick THAT ONE? (whatever it may be)
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (KamikazePilot @ Dec 31 2010, 10:17 AM) *
I'm a firm believer that anything twisted must have a reason and allowed to be atoned for if you so chose to let it play in the world you are running. Unless you are GMing for a group pf sociapaths most humans will pause any gaming and engage in severe metagaming once the hard content gets introduced (unless they are said sociopaths).

So you deny the existence of roleplaying?

~J
KamikazePilot
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 1 2011, 02:25 AM) *
So you deny the existence of roleplaying?

~J


we are all a results of our experiences. and from my GMing experience seriouslt twisted content breaks the group out of character and into more D&D style goody goody two shoes character until the said twisted content has been dealt with.

other GMs and group may have better experience. i just have not been so lucky.
Draco18s
QUOTE (KamikazePilot @ Dec 31 2010, 10:17 AM) *
Whats not fine if you chose to present such vile content and never let the player know about it. So we are back to the GM being a twisted fuck satifying his own desires.


I'm pretty sure I mentioned something about letting the players in on what was really going on. indifferent.gif

QUOTE
I'm a firm believer that anything twisted must have a reason and allowed to be atoned for if you so chose to let it play in the world you are running. Unless you are GMing for a group pf sociapaths most humans will pause any gaming and engage in severe metagaming once the hard content gets introduced (unless they are said sociopaths).


My goal here is to create an adventure that pushes the limits of the players' ability to "shoot people in the face for money" and "drive recklessly down the street, running over pedestrians" along with the occasional demotions job of the Slurm bottling plant, but never "murder small children" or whatever weird morals gamers seem to employ for their characters (killing off Mom and Dad is ok, but god forbid we kill children with direct gun-in-face actions).

The goal is to find some job that the cumulative result of which is so abhorrent that IF given the choice between doing the job and not doing the job the choice should always always be "not do the job" but that's the cumulative result and that it isn't apparent until after it's too late.*

I'm perfectly OK with the players wanting to extract their revenge later, that's not the issue. The goal is to get them to do it in the first place of their own free will through the use of half-truths and concealed information.

*Did anyone play the flash game Mastermind: World Conqueror? The end cut-scene is the Mastermind (you) hopping onto a spaceship with the last words to his minions of, "Thanks for all your help, it's been fun, I really owe you guys one." And then blasting off as the planet explodes. The minions go, "Wait, what?" as they realize that they just helped a guy destroy the world and they didn't get to survive. This is the kind of "too little information, too late" result I'm looking for.
KamikazePilot
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 1 2011, 02:36 AM) *
My goal here is to create an adventure that pushes the limits of the players' ability to "shoot people in the face for money" and "drive recklessly down the street, running over pedestrians" along with the occasional demotions job of the Slurm bottling plant, but never "murder small children" or whatever weird morals gamers seem to employ for their characters (killing off Mom and Dad is ok, but god forbid we kill children with direct gun-in-face actions).

The goal is to find some job that the cumulative result of which is so abhorrent that IF given the choice between doing the job and not doing the job the choice should always always be "not do the job" but that's the cumulative result and that it isn't apparent until after it's too late.*

I'm perfectly OK with the players wanting to extract their revenge later, that's not the issue. The goal is to get them to do it in the first place of their own free will through the use of half-truths and concealed information.

*Did anyone play the flash game Mastermind: World Conqueror? The end cut-scene is the Mastermind (you) hopping onto a spaceship with the last words to his minions of, "Thanks for all your help, it's been fun, I really owe you guys one." And then blasting off as the planet explodes. The minions go, "Wait, what?" as they realize that they just helped a guy destroy the world and they didn't get to survive. This is the kind of "too little information, too late" result I'm looking for.


Well I hope you succeed seing your plan through to the end and seeing the faces of your players when they catch on to what they just 'accomplished'. I envy GMs that can pull off such awesome twists of gameplay and NOT have their players break into "We wanna save the world D&D style" even though their characters woudlnt give a flying fuck if the world burned today.

If i pulled off something similar to that Mastermind you mentioned my players have ways of metagaming any future encounters to teach me not to do it again. kinda like when i did a double cross once before in SR3 and then they doublecrossed the next 5 or 6 Johsnsons until i had to end the campaign with "no one will work with you in seattle. game over. someone else GM next several sessions."
Draco18s
QUOTE (KamikazePilot @ Dec 31 2010, 10:50 AM) *
Well I hope you succeed seing your plan through to the end and seeing the faces of your players when they catch on to what they just 'accomplished'. I envy GMs that can pull off such awesome twists of gameplay and NOT have their players break into "We wanna save the world D&D style" even though their characters woudlnt give a flying fuck if the world burned today.


I know someone who could pull it off. Maybe even two people.

Problem is:
The first one works for the secret service now (or so I've been told) and the latter is under "house arrest"* due to an FBI investigation.**

I know *I'd* never be able to pull it off.

*Can't leave the state
**From what I understand, he's on the "witness" side of things, but then, I haven't been able to speak with him directly since I last saw him, and the friend I have who does isn't sure how much he can tell the rest of us. So I have no idea.
Aku
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 31 2010, 11:08 AM) *
I know someone who could pull it off. Maybe even two people.

Problem is:
The first one works for the secret service now (or so I've been told) and the latter is under "house arrest"* due to an FBI investigation.**

I know *I'd* never be able to pull it off.

*Can't leave the state
**From what I understand, he's on the "witness" side of things, but then, I haven't been able to speak with him directly since I last saw him, and the friend I have who does isn't sure how much he can tell the rest of us. So I have no idea.


I think you need to get different friends, if they're involved in, or witnessing things to that extent. i dont care WHAT side of the FBI's fence they're on, lol biggrin.gif
Glyph
Shadowrun is a dystopia, but from the very beginning it has had some Robin Hood "sticking it to the man" aspects to it. And shadowrunners who are the more callous type, or even the thrill-killing type, will still have some lines they won't cross. The limits to the dystopia are organic ones - there is only so grimdarkbad that you can make things before the group turns from grey hats struggling with moral dilemmas, into apathetic, callous thugs who don't care, because nothing they do will make a difference anyways.

GMs who set out to screw with the players should expect them to drop everything to singlemindedly pursue revenge, not giving a damn about any other plots until the issue is resolved. They play to have fun, and it's not really fun when your characters are turned into an NPC's bitches, or get forced out of the role the players envision for them. So a GM doing this is being a dick, and asking for blatant metagaming. If you want to play White Wolf style angsting or Warhammer style grimness, then get the players on board with it first. Game atmosphere or tone can only be properly done with everyone's cooperation. If you don't get everyone on board, then they will constantly metagame, or leave in disgust, at what they see as the GM being a dick for no good reason.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Aku @ Dec 31 2010, 11:18 AM) *
I think you need to get different friends, if they're involved in, or witnessing things to that extent. i dont care WHAT side of the FBI's fence they're on, lol biggrin.gif


Keith....is a strange man.

When we first met him he couldn't speak (issues with his vocal chords). The last time I saw him he was headed home for major surgery (the second time since I met him) and wouldn't be back for the next term, then his co-op came up, so he stayed home and got a job working as a night time repo man (Keith had a locksmith license, among others) and due to his surgery he couldn't talk again (not until he healed, at least) so his coworkers called him Silent Pete.

Keith was someone who you could be talking to (face-to-face) look away for a second (keep talking) and turn back and he'd be gone. As in "not in the room" gone. Likewise we were waiting for him to show up one day (sitting in a large circle of chairs) for him to run his game and someone said, "It's 6:30, where the hell is Keith?" at which point Keith goes, "Hi, right here, been here 15 minutes now." No joke he was right next to the person who asked and no one saw him arrive.

Anyway, it was six months after that that I expected to see him again and found out that he was currently being confined to his home state because of some investigation that I never got details on.
Aku
I may borrow some of those traits for an npc lol
TheWanderingJewels
The Players just completed the first of the 'Dawn Series' of modules. I made Lagos out to be the complete disease infested hellhole that it is where the players have the options of Bad Or Worse to pick from. The ran across the Brothel in the Igbo area where a target was holed up and when I finshed describing the level of human misery, I could tell I had most of them wanting to burn the place to the ground, but I pointed out what would probably happen to the girls inside if the place was leveled (sold to the human traffickers who would sell them to ghouls). After a few amushes and backstabs along the way, one of the female player characters said, "I fucking hate this place." To which the Redoubtable Sonny (the games gunsel and Jayne Cobb Expy) said, "I was here ten years ago and the place sucked worse. This is when it's nice."

Suffice it to say, the players don't want to go back to the place if they can avoid it. The Redmond Barrens look positively inviting at this point.

There's Dystopia. Then there is Lagos. Dystopia is mild compared to a Feral City
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