MilSpecTech, What do you guys think? Options

[CanRay]

Worth checking out or passing?

Will it actually be full of MilSpecTech, or will it be full of commercial-grade pharmaceuticals?

Am I just whining about a book I haven't read (War!), or am I making a point about products that don't live up to their design description?

Rum or Port?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

The software and hardware are worthy. At least it's easier now (although expensive, but when isn't it?) for a hacker to get on par with the high ratings TM can get.
Of course, this now means TM's suck even more, because of the high costs associated with creating one.

edit: spelling

[Fatum]

The software and hardware are worthy. At least it easier now (although expensive, but when isn't it?) for a hacker to get on par with the high ratins TM can get.
Of course, this now means TM's suck even more, because of the high costs associated with creating one.

No, let me quote this again.

Of course, this now means TM's suck even more

And again.

TM's suck

TMs are everything bad in the Matrix, they're as broken as broken could be. Roll 18 dice at the beginning of the game where a hacker would realistically only roll around 10 tops? Summon Sprites with supa-magical powahz? Initiate for your own SUPA-magical powahz? Yes please, who needs hackers when you can have TMs who can do it all and more for free, better and quicker?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Well, they can, but my point is: that will be THE ONLY thing they can do and nothing else. And will be so for a long time.
If you try to make a well-rounded technomancer you are in trouble. You will either be below the capacity of a what a beggining hacker can do in the Matrix and you will be a little better than a fat kid trying to flee from a tiger when it comes to the Meat World™.

[Whipstitch]

I'd much rather have a Hacker on the team than a Technomancer with any group of 4 people or less.

[PoliteMan]

TMs are everything bad in the Matrix, they're as broken as broken could be. Roll 18 dice at the beginning of the game where a hacker would realistically only roll around 10 tops? Summon Sprites with supa-magical powahz? Initiate for your own SUPA-magical powahz? Yes please, who needs hackers when you can have TMs who can do it all and more for free, better and quicker?

Where are you getting the 10 dice for hackers? As near as I can tell, 10 is a minimum, 14 is decent, and outside of core but without WAR they top out at around 20 die, 24 being the theoretical max I've hit so far. And all of that is available at character creation, although you'll chew up most of your starting resources. With WAR, I have no idea, haven't bought it (but I've read everyone's opinions on the topic already so no thread-derailment please).

[Fatum]

Well, they can, but my point is: that will be THE ONLY thing they can do and nothing else. And will be so for a long time.
If you try to make a well-rounded technomancer you are in trouble. You will either be below the capacity of a what a beggining hacker can do in the Matrix and you will be a little better than a fat kid trying to flee from a tiger when it comes to the Meat World™.

Just by being able to summon the sprites (which, I remind you, are free, unlike hacking programs) TMs are inherently more versatile.

[KarmaInferno]

The TM will have more dice than any hacker.

But the Hacker can be ALMOST as good but still have build points left over to also be good in a couple other areas like Social or Combat.

"Versatile" includes a lot of situations where computers can't help.




-k

[Adarael]

This is the way I feel about most classes of specialized magician, for the record. Especially when players used to earlier editions insist they MUST have Magic 6 at chargen.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, if I want a magician to be good at specific role other than pure casting prowess I tend to do that through skills and a light dash of 'ware rather than dedicate an entire spell list to one theme. For example, I'd rather have an ork combat mage with a Pain Editor, Muscle Toners, a decent Automatics pool and a grab bag of utility spells (Heal, Detect Life, Stun Bolt, Mind Probe, etc...) than a Magic 6 guy who used virtually his entire starting spell allotment on different flavors of blowing things up. After all, one of Magic's greatest strengths is the fact that you can pack a half-decent answer to several different problems with one skill+attribute combo and a decent spell list.

[Fatum]

The TM will have more dice than any hacker.

But the Hacker can be ALMOST as good but still have build points left over to also be good in a couple other areas like Social or Combat.

"Versatile" includes a lot of situations where computers can't help.

And this is why runners form those things called "teams". Where everyone is good at his own thing.

[Whipstitch]

Specialization has many advantages but this is Shadowrun we're talking about. Sometimes somebody else's thing shows up uninvited and starts shooting.

[CanRay]

Can we get back to the topic at hand, SVP?

So, as I asked, Rum or Port? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Er, I mean, MilSpecTech, do you think it'll be what it says on the tin? Can this be a chance for CGL to start to redeem itself from what happened with War! or will we see more of the same?

Or should we just wait and see?

[Mäx]

Er, I mean, MilSpecTech, do you think it'll be what it says on the tin?

Pretty sure the answer is yes, WAR:s game info section was after all exactly what was promised(even if the rest of the book did miss it target by a couple miles) if a little small, but hopefully millspectech helps with that.

[Fatum]

That's how I've come to view CGL.

[CanRay]

Well... Paranoia was able to come back from their 5th Edition...

Oh drek.

*Is summarily terminated*

[KarmaInferno]

And this is why runners form those things called "teams". Where everyone is good at his own thing.

Yes.

But that wasn't the issue.

Being only specialized in one thing (Matrix Stuff) is NOT what many folks would call "versatile". TMs might have access to a huge amount of programs via threading and CFs, but it's all still Matrix Stuff.

It's like trying to say a gunbunny is "versatile" because he knows how to fire ALL kinds of firearms.

Which was my (and Brazilian_Shinobi's) entire point - TMs sacrifice versatility to be the best at what they do.

The only problem is, in many SR teams, you usually don't NEED the "best". "Almost the best" is usually plenty sufficient, and THAT guy can fill other roles as well, so he's not stuck twiddling his thumbs as dead weight when there's nothing to do relating to his specialty.

Even in current day Special Forces teams, most of the operatives aren't just specialists in one thing, they get cross-trained in other fields. An operative that is only good at one thing is a liability.



-k

[Fatum]

Now, wait a minute here. What, do TMs get penalties on social, technical, physical or any other skills hackers don't? What's stopping them from being better both at hacking and everything else, minding that being equally good requires less points?

[Yerameyahu]

You try building such a character with equal BP/karma, then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The 'hacker package' is basically a cheap little add-on for most characters.

[KarmaInferno]

Now, wait a minute here. What, do TMs get penalties on social, technical, physical or any other skills hackers don't? What's stopping them from being better both at hacking and everything else, minding that being equally good requires less points?

Primarily? Attributes.

Hackers mostly invest in just skills. Everything else is equipment-based, and cash usually flows a lot more freely than Karma or Build Points. Their actual Attributes don't matter - most Matrix Tests are Skill + Program. So their Attributes can be focused more elsewhere.

TMs have to invest a significant amount of Build points into their Living Persona related attributes, in addition to their skills. Willpower, Intuition, Resonance, Logic, Charisma.

Additionally, TMs can't take some of the "booster" options that a classic Hacker or Hacker Adept can take. Cyberware hurts, and they can't get any Adept powers.

So I admit that while it's POSSIBLE to build a TM that's well rounded, it hurts a lot more Build Point wise than it does for Hackers. Probably the easiest secondary role for them is Face, as they likely have a decent Charisma. Gunbunny or Hitter will be difficult because of the need to invest in a non-Resonance attribute.

A hacker simply has a much easier time doing the multi-role thing.



-k

[Fatum]

*shrugs*
Dunno, we've never felt the need for everyone in the group to be good at everything - or at two things, for that matter, too. At least at the beginning of the game. Shadowrun is a game of specialization, so a character should be the very best his build points allow at his part of the job, and able to handle himself in a fight. If he does anything else, it counts for being rather versatile.
And you can never build a hacker nearly as competent at hacking at the game's start as a TM, and it's not like the gap is getting less with Karma.

Besides, in what comes to attributes, everyone always expects the hacker to be the mechanic/first aid guy/whatever, so it's not like you can just skip the mental ones altogether.

And everyone handles rewards differently. I suspect that I'm more on Karma-rewarding side - at least submersions and initiations happen earlier than massive purchases in my games.

[Mäx]

Shadowrun is a game of specialization, so a character should be the very best his build points allow at his part of the job, and able to handle himself in a fight.

Which TM:s can pretty much never do, or if they can then their not nearly the best they could be at hacking.

[Fatum]

Suddenly, if you have to divert some resources from your primary specialization, you get worse at it. Wow, now that's a surprise, and I bet that must be unique to TMs - that's just how special the snowflakes they are.

[Mäx]

Suddenly, if you have to divert some resources from your primary specialization, you get worse at it. Wow, now that's a surprise, and I bet that must be unique to TMs - that's just how special the snowflakes they are.

No, but only TM:s and mages need pretty much all their chargen recources to be great at their primary specialisation, TM:s even more then mages.
Hacker might not have as many dice, but being one also cost a lot less chargen recources.

[KarmaInferno]

It's the Living Persona that kills it, having to maximize five Attributes when everyone else really only needs three or so is costly. TMs more or less effectively start with less Build Points because of it.

It's not that TMs aren't good at what they do, but the rules make it harder for them to do anything ELSE at the same time really well.

Meanwhile, for example, I have a Mystic Adept character that isn't too far out of character creation that throws 16 to 24 dice at rigging, combat, social tests, AND hacking. And can cast spells at an "okay" level.



-k