Worth checking out or passing?

Will it actually be full of MilSpecTech, or will it be full of commercial-grade pharmaceuticals?

Am I just whining about a book I haven't read (War!), or am I making a point about products that don't live up to their design description?

Rum or Port?

The software and hardware are worthy. At least it's easier now (although expensive, but when isn't it?) for a hacker to get on par with the high ratings TM can get.
Of course, this now means TM's suck even more, because of the high costs associated with creating one.

edit: spelling

No, let me quote this again.

And again.


TMs are everything bad in the Matrix, they're as broken as broken could be. Roll 18 dice at the beginning of the game where a hacker would realistically only roll around 10 tops? Summon Sprites with supa-magical powahz? Initiate for your own SUPA-magical powahz? Yes please, who needs hackers when you can have TMs who can do it all and more for free, better and quicker?

Well, they can, but my point is: that will be THE ONLY thing they can do and nothing else. And will be so for a long time.
If you try to make a well-rounded technomancer you are in trouble. You will either be below the capacity of a what a beggining hacker can do in the Matrix and you will be a little better than a fat kid trying to flee from a tiger when it comes to the Meat World™.

I'd much rather have a Hacker on the team than a Technomancer with any group of 4 people or less.

Where are you getting the 10 dice for hackers? As near as I can tell, 10 is a minimum, 14 is decent, and outside of core but without WAR they top out at around 20 die, 24 being the theoretical max I've hit so far. And all of that is available at character creation, although you'll chew up most of your starting resources. With WAR, I have no idea, haven't bought it (but I've read everyone's opinions on the topic already so no thread-derailment please).

Just by being able to summon the sprites (which, I remind you, are free, unlike hacking programs) TMs are inherently more versatile.

The TM will have more dice than any hacker.

But the Hacker can be ALMOST as good but still have build points left over to also be good in a couple other areas like Social or Combat.

"Versatile" includes a lot of situations where computers can't help.




-k

This is the way I feel about most classes of specialized magician, for the record. Especially when players used to earlier editions insist they MUST have Magic 6 at chargen.

Yeah, if I want a magician to be good at specific role other than pure casting prowess I tend to do that through skills and a light dash of 'ware rather than dedicate an entire spell list to one theme. For example, I'd rather have an ork combat mage with a Pain Editor, Muscle Toners, a decent Automatics pool and a grab bag of utility spells (Heal, Detect Life, Stun Bolt, Mind Probe, etc...) than a Magic 6 guy who used virtually his entire starting spell allotment on different flavors of blowing things up. After all, one of Magic's greatest strengths is the fact that you can pack a half-decent answer to several different problems with one skill+attribute combo and a decent spell list.

And this is why runners form those things called "teams". Where everyone is good at his own thing.

Specialization has many advantages but this is Shadowrun we're talking about. Sometimes somebody else's thing shows up uninvited and starts shooting.

Can we get back to the topic at hand, SVP?

So, as I asked, Rum or Port?

Er, I mean, MilSpecTech, do you think it'll be what it says on the tin? Can this be a chance for CGL to start to redeem itself from what happened with War! or will we see more of the same?

Or should we just wait and see?

Pretty sure the answer is yes, WAR:s game info section was after all exactly what was promised(even if the rest of the book did miss it target by a couple miles) if a little small, but hopefully millspectech helps with that.

That's how I've come to view CGL.

Well... Paranoia was able to come back from their 5th Edition...

Oh drek.

*Is summarily terminated*

Yes.

But that wasn't the issue.

Being only specialized in one thing (Matrix Stuff) is NOT what many folks would call "versatile". TMs might have access to a huge amount of programs via threading and CFs, but it's all still Matrix Stuff.

It's like trying to say a gunbunny is "versatile" because he knows how to fire ALL kinds of firearms.

Which was my (and Brazilian_Shinobi's) entire point - TMs sacrifice versatility to be the best at what they do.

The only problem is, in many SR teams, you usually don't NEED the "best". "Almost the best" is usually plenty sufficient, and THAT guy can fill other roles as well, so he's not stuck twiddling his thumbs as dead weight when there's nothing to do relating to his specialty.

Even in current day Special Forces teams, most of the operatives aren't just specialists in one thing, they get cross-trained in other fields. An operative that is only good at one thing is a liability.



-k

Now, wait a minute here. What, do TMs get penalties on social, technical, physical or any other skills hackers don't? What's stopping them from being better both at hacking and everything else, minding that being equally good requires less points?

You try building such a character with equal BP/karma, then. The 'hacker package' is basically a cheap little add-on for most characters.

Primarily? Attributes.

Hackers mostly invest in just skills. Everything else is equipment-based, and cash usually flows a lot more freely than Karma or Build Points. Their actual Attributes don't matter - most Matrix Tests are Skill + Program. So their Attributes can be focused more elsewhere.

TMs have to invest a significant amount of Build points into their Living Persona related attributes, in addition to their skills. Willpower, Intuition, Resonance, Logic, Charisma.

Additionally, TMs can't take some of the "booster" options that a classic Hacker or Hacker Adept can take. Cyberware hurts, and they can't get any Adept powers.

So I admit that while it's POSSIBLE to build a TM that's well rounded, it hurts a lot more Build Point wise than it does for Hackers. Probably the easiest secondary role for them is Face, as they likely have a decent Charisma. Gunbunny or Hitter will be difficult because of the need to invest in a non-Resonance attribute.

A hacker simply has a much easier time doing the multi-role thing.



-k

*shrugs*
Dunno, we've never felt the need for everyone in the group to be good at everything - or at two things, for that matter, too. At least at the beginning of the game. Shadowrun is a game of specialization, so a character should be the very best his build points allow at his part of the job, and able to handle himself in a fight. If he does anything else, it counts for being rather versatile.
And you can never build a hacker nearly as competent at hacking at the game's start as a TM, and it's not like the gap is getting less with Karma.

Besides, in what comes to attributes, everyone always expects the hacker to be the mechanic/first aid guy/whatever, so it's not like you can just skip the mental ones altogether.

And everyone handles rewards differently. I suspect that I'm more on Karma-rewarding side - at least submersions and initiations happen earlier than massive purchases in my games.

Which TM:s can pretty much never do, or if they can then their not nearly the best they could be at hacking.

Suddenly, if you have to divert some resources from your primary specialization, you get worse at it. Wow, now that's a surprise, and I bet that must be unique to TMs - that's just how special the snowflakes they are.

No, but only TM:s and mages need pretty much all their chargen recources to be great at their primary specialisation, TM:s even more then mages.
Hacker might not have as many dice, but being one also cost a lot less chargen recources.

It's the Living Persona that kills it, having to maximize five Attributes when everyone else really only needs three or so is costly. TMs more or less effectively start with less Build Points because of it.

It's not that TMs aren't good at what they do, but the rules make it harder for them to do anything ELSE at the same time really well.

Meanwhile, for example, I have a Mystic Adept character that isn't too far out of character creation that throws 16 to 24 dice at rigging, combat, social tests, AND hacking. And can cast spells at an "okay" level.



-k

No need to be snarky, we're just helping. Technomancers have massive MAD, while hackers need almost *nothing*, not even Logic. You asked why it's hard for Technomancers, and those are the answers. Off the cuff, a rating 4 hacker 'module' is like 10-15BP, depending. Theoretical max starting hacker (with Restricted Gear's and stuff) is still much less than a 'well-rounded' Technomancer. It's nothing personal.

On the flipside, TMs have Sprites.

They can definitely do some cool things. I guess if you made a 'summoner' Technomancer, you could avoid some of the MAD, but you're still having the issues with Essence loss to augmentation, BP/karma dependence for programs, and so on. They're just very resource-intensive. Is it unfair? Possibly, and you could change things with house rules if your group preferred.

Even if you just look at things through the prism of complex forms vs. hacking programs the sheer expense of being a TM quickly becomes apparent. It's literally 5 times more expensive to purchase a rating 5 Complex Form of any stripe at character generation than it is to purchase a rating 5 Hacking Program. 10 times more expensive if we're talking about Common Use programs. And as other posters have pointed out, MAD is always a problem for TMs, and it rears its head even if you're just looking to attain a decent collection of Complex Forms and are otherwise disregarding your Living Persona attributes.

That's because the rating of forms is limited by your Resonance Attribute and the total number of forms you can have at character generation is limited to your Logic x 2 whereas Hackers are limited only by the 50 Gear BP cap and Availability. That's not an inconsiderable disadvantage given that acquiring new high rated forms only gets more expensive after character generation, since the Karma cost of improving a CF gets steeper the higher up the ladder you climb. Meanwhile, you can make a decent argument that Hacking programs are in many ways cheaper in play since you no longer need the Restricted Gear quality to sport customized rating 6 programs nor do you even necessarily have to pay for them at all if you have the dice pools to patch, pirate or code your own software. So yeah, Immersion is a huge boon for technomancers, but that's in large part due to the fact that it's relatively cheap compared to their other unique progression options.

The release of Rating 10 Programs in War! hasn't helped the TM/Hacker resource divide any.

Honestly? I've never really liked that Attributes don't have an impact on Hacking (and Rigging, really). It breaks from the Attribute + Skill paradigm the rest of the game has. If it were up to me I'd have made it Attribute + Skill like everything else. Programs would instead add bonus dice, and like most other bonus dice sources only come in ratings of 1 to 3, with 1 being common, 2 the gear of serious hackers, and 3 being nova-hot bleeding edge 'ware - with prices and availability to match.

But then I'd have to re-write a lot of other related sections of the book to fit the new paradigm, and I'm too lazy for that.




-k

And worse, it encourages Script Kiddies!

Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention in favor of Hackers, although it is indirect: Edge. Due to the opportunity costs inherent in being a TM, Hackers have a much easier time soft-maxing Matrix skills while still having the points to spend on a big ol' honking Edge pool. Between Codeslinger, specializations, encephalon 2, the hotsim bonus and 6 Edge I've seen a 10 karma hacker routinely nab admin access on rating 5 nodes in a couple of Complex Actions when doing On The Fly hacks. Between his simsense booster and the Mute program option delaying any automatic alert by a full combat turn, he could nab paydata and ruin a spider's day faster then you can say 'all your base are belong to us' that way. Such examples are why people tend to say that Hackers are often good enough even if TMs are capable of jacking up their Stealth programs to absurd levels.

What does "the tin" say? I only found a small reference to it in the beginning of 'War!' and I don't see anything on the official upcoming releases. Is there anything else identifying what this book might be?

So far, the "Tin" says "MilSpecTech", so I'm hoping that means Military Specified Technology, and not, you know, "Here's the crappy cars you'll find in Bogota that we welded Vietnam 'Police Action'-Era guns to."

The official forums upcoming realeases topic has this to say about this pdf supplement "MilSpecTech--We couldn't possibly fit all the cool military gear that's available into War! So more of it is in here!"
But apparently that is in error(not that any one listened my statement that it should then be changed) when it says couldn't fit in to WAR, as the content is produced independently from WAR.

You know, I'd have been happier with a vague statement of the various brushfire wars in the world, rather than one brushfire war in a city with NO MAP (In a cave, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!), and then the rest of the gear rather than a PDF stand-alone.

But, hey, that's just me. You know, a customer. The target audience. (Well, one of the target audience.).

I'm going to wait and see if MilSpecTech is what it says it is. If it's gear like it says it is, hey, I'll buy it. If not, then it'll get a pass like War! did.

Haha, and what if it's War!-quality gear?

I haven't seen the gear from War!, so I can't comment on that.

I just want my damned MPUV back! Bastard child of a VW Beetle and a WWII Jeep!

Well, you can read the discussion threads floating around to get the idea of its unbelievable quality.

Wasn't MPUV supposed to be a reference to Humvee?

Most of it's pretty good, some nice additions to the game in there.
Especially the actually functional fighter jets.

You're right, they're excellently thought out. The lack of ECCM is just a brilliant feature.
But, to be honest, of all the Aircraft chapter I liked Vogelhund the most.

Well atleast they have places for more then 1 weapon, unlike the joke in the arsenal.

How many chances does CGL deserve? Really, they had their chances. They had a transistion, fine. They had a couple bumpf products. JAson promised things would be ebtter. Then he produced war, a turd of a book that not only is nothing more but a couple half-baked notes and drafts cobbled together into a badly layouted pdf, it also contains some really vile stuff that makes me really wonder whether David Hill wanted to be dark and edgy or whether this speaks for deeper beliefs.

MilSpec stuff seems to follow the same road as War! did, with being pushed out hush-hush to be opublished, to make some money to subsidize a badly dselling tabletop about giant robots whose RPG side never interested a viable audience to begin with. Unless people change at CGL, or maybe even publishers change, I do not believe things will change there as fundamentally as they need to.

Just a small comment on the side debate: Any technomancer can be good at social stuff, all they need is a thraded social aid program such as those in the emotitoy. Or, buy an semotitoy and have it be enhanced by a machine spirit. Similarily, a technomancer can just put a link into his gun and put a machine sprite in, wham, he gets the same boni (about) a sam gets on shooting. It'S insane. And TMs don't even need high CF. All they need is a maxed fade resist attribute. because threading is not an action and can be done anytime, as a response, to boos the pool.. That seriously cuts down on their cost, and frees them up to be as versatile as a ghacker, being just as good without sprites and much better with sprites.

I say give them one more major suppliment. 6WA had it's faults, but it was a decent job at trying to do a damned hard job.

War!, no, that was just drek in a box from what I'm gathering. Certainly isn't what it was supposed to be.

After that, they'd have to work damned hard to get my money again, and I'll just go to fan-made material. Again, however, that's just me.

That said, the lack of Errata is REALLY telling, indeed.

I'm going to mention a few things just to try and nip the "ZOMG, War! was bad so now everything, ever, will also be bad!" hyperbole in the bud, if I can. My insane spring semester's started up so I haven't had time to try and keep up with posts here on DS lately, but I've got a minute and I want to try and clear a few things up if I can.

While -- like War! -- I wasn't involved in working on MilSpecTech, I've seen it. I'll admit I didn't give it a terribly in-depth readover, scouring it for typos or anything, but I read over it and liked what I saw. The format, in particular, was a new twist on an old favorite of mine. Because it's dealing with, well, nothing but milspec gear, it may or may not be a "must have" book for every campaign out there, but in terms of layout and general content, it's a fun book. Lots of folks have been denouncing War! for not being Fields of Fire II, and given how awesome Fields of Fire was, I can understand the sentiment. That said, if you liked the gear sections of Fields of Fire back in the day, I think you'll like MilSpecTech a whole lot more than you (the generic "you") seem to be liking War!.

MilSpecTech aside, I also want to reiterate that some things are changing at CGL right now, in direct response to some feedback (to put it gently) we've received about War!. Typos and layout errors are at the top of our concerns lists, and steps have been taken to put more eyes on every draft. Quite literally the day that the first War! threads were being made and complaints about that sort of thing were rolling in, every chapter of our next major product was posted for more people to be able to read over, edit, comment on, and coordinate with each other with.

Trust me. No one wants the finished product to look good more than the guys who are writing it (especially those of us doing so for the first time, after being fans and players and GMs since SR1). All of us who're gonna have our name inside upcoming products are doing everything we can to make sure it's something we want to have our name on. Complaints are being heard, and we're doing what we can to address the issues that have been raised.

Please, please, PLEASE! I can't be the only person who is sick of this.

Then "Please, please, PLEASE!" buy me a copy so that I won't have to. As, from as I've been informed from a variety of sources (Admittedly, on the Internet, and, even worse, Dumpshock! ), it's not worth my money. Which is tight enough as is.

Critias, thank you for your statement. So far, it's looking like I'll be getting MilSpecTech so I don't cause the complaint that PoliteMan has (Rightfully, I'll admit) given. It's bad form to complain about things you haven't read/seen yourself, and I should be ashamed.

Should be, but am not. I'm an arrogant Ontarian after all. Bloody Easterner.

What about Errata (for older product, I admit errata for war! will be difficult to have ready that fast)? What about a revision to the That Old Drone pdf so it starts to make sense? Sorry, but this is not the first time we've read that this will be the last bad book, and every successive product has been worse. Please accept this is going to be take with more than a grain of salt until MilSpec Gear is out (and it better deliver).

Also, given what was delivered by the hirelings writing War!, it is incredibly hard to believe they have been fans at all at any point in time, much less from 1st Edition. That's not to say nobody writing for SR is (I know a numer still working for CGL are), but it'S really hard to believe a fan would deliver fuckups like the Hot Spots section in War!, which, aside from completly fucking canon over in every way possible, also contains things that are just disgusting.

As for my expectations:
- Redundancies and rules that do not work with War!'s at all
- Gear, Gear, Gear. Some may actually be useful, some not
- The broken, broken Ultra-Damage vehicle rules will see more use
- uber equipment so that it becomes a must-have
- possibly an attempt at a new presentation of gear, and artwork and comments for every item, as has been strongly hinted. That may even be good, or at least better than in previous books.
- slightly less spelling and grammar error, still wonky editing, and a general detachedness from canon, as has been the feel of CGL books ever since Hardy.

I'll be waiting for reviews of MilSpec Gear. I will not buy it when out, as I made the mistake with War!. I don't expect much good there, though making a book better than War! is easy (all you need it to mind the Word Autocorrect function).

Dudes, this thread is not about Hackers vs. TMs and not about how CGL fucked up their last releases - we have a ton of threads for those topics.

Well, at least the Cover Image fits.