MilSpecTech, What do you guys think? Options

[Fatum]

Yeah, right, they aren't. But of all things I think a rules system has to maintain inner consistency. Is there any way you could fit four external fixed mounts on a drone with those stats if that wasn't a standard upgrade?

[Critias]

Haha, in what now? I know you're kidding, but it's not funny. Not funny at all.

Several of the playtesters are active posters here on DS. I'm not sure if just raising their hand counts as violating their NDA or not, so I won't say who or ask them to speak up, but...well, yes. Sorry you don't feel it happens, but it is in playtesting right now.

[Mäx]

Yeah, right, they aren't. But of all things I think a rules system has to maintain inner consistency. Is there any way you could fit four external fixed mounts on a drone with those stats if that wasn't a standard upgrade?

Nope, but neither could you fit 2 weapon mounts into Nimrod or 1 into Ares Sentinel “R” Series or Modified GMC Chariot(all of these drones are in Arsenal, a book you accused of This Old Drone writers of not reading)
Also good luck trying to add multilaunch drone rack into any drone(GTS Tower has this, even thought it reguiers a Body 10)

[Bull]

Several of the playtesters are active posters here on DS. I'm not sure if just raising their hand counts as violating their NDA or not, so I won't say who or ask them to speak up, but...well, yes. Sorry you don't feel it happens, but it is in playtesting right now.

I do a bit of playtesting, though I'm now sort of without a group since I moved. But I'll read things over and go "Hey, that doesn't look right!" (Something I didn't get to do as much as I should have with War, as I have a lot of other stuff on my plate as well).

Bull

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, exactly which drones do you think *need* a multilaunch drone rack? Jesus.

[Bull]

Nope, but neither could you fit 2 weapon mounts into Nimrod or 1 into Ares Sentinel “R” Series or Modified GMC Chariot(all of these drones are in Arsenal, a book you accused of This Old Drone writers of not reading)
Also good luck trying to add multilaunch drone rack into any drone(GTS Tower has this, even thought it reguiers a Body 10)

It's always easier to optimize and build around things when you're designing from scratch. Much harder to "bolt it on" after the fact, so it takes up more space. Hence, something that's "factory designed" can break the optimization rules a bit.

Bull

[CanRay]

Unless you're the Canadian Armed Forces. Then it's just another day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Udoshi]

Several of the playtesters are active posters here on DS. I'm not sure if just raising their hand counts as violating their NDA or not, so I won't say who or ask them to speak up, but...well, yes. Sorry you don't feel it happens, but it is in playtesting right now.

Dear Playtesters.

Please put a Micro-weapons mount modification in milspec tech.
I mean, like, guns no bigger than SMG sized, with two clips of reloads(or something suitably tiny). 0 slots, pay for visibility/flexibility/control as normal, but minimum 1 slot, but ISN'T a Standard mod, so it can go on Small vehicles

The ability to have a smallish drone with a light gun is a feature thats been sorely lacking in the current edition of shadowrun. You know, when you need a ferret with a machine pistol, stungun, or something appropriate to its size. It just always seemed silly that between 2060 and SR4, drones now apparently only come in One-Size-Fits-All: LMG.

[Smed]

That said, I'll say what I think I can without violating my NDA and/or spoiling the surprise. It's more of an update to existing Adept rules than a groundshaking overhaul of anything, expanding upon existing Adept fluff and providing some crunch to go with it -- Ways have had fluff for a couple of editions now, and I wanted to lay down some actual rules to go along with them, finally. "High Magic" isn't involved, artifacts aren't involved, etc, etc, though the long-established general rise of the mana level is theorized to play some part in why things are changing, in-game. It's my hope that the rules I'm presenting will let Adept players have fun and contribute to their group without having to min/max and super-specialize (like by heavily going the cyber/bio route for the most efficient attribute boosts), while collaborating with their GM to make things fit their character just right.

I'm looking forward to seeing this. Ways have been fluff without crunch since they were first mentioned, and I'm curious to see how you are handling it.

[onlyghostdancesw...]

I for one, keep hoping they will basically re-release/ update rigger 3 that was an amazing book imo.

[hermit]

They won't, flat out.

[onlyghostdancesw...]

i know but it would be downright amazing.

[hermit]

It certainly would, but they have decided to kill the rigger as a viable character archetype, so ...

[Fatum]

they have decided to kill the rigger as a viable character archetype, so ...

I've played a rigger against the opposition using the core book stat blocks. He kicked major ass.
What were I doing wrong?

[hermit]

They still allow vehicle-oriented hackers, but they kicked the idea of the rigger as a supported archetype. They seriosuly nerfed the VCR, which isn't good for much anymore ecept a de facto free success of you have another success. They reintroduced some tidbits in Augmentations, but needed an errata to actually make the Rigger nanires work with other riggerware. And then there is the mess that is the vehicle rules in general, which aren't good for more than vaguely tracking a chase with two cars.

The point is not that you cannot build a half-decent vehicle hacker. The point is that the rigger as an independent archetype does not exist anymore. he is a specialised hacker and has a few tricks to be a bit more viable than a standard vehicle hacker, but he's nowhere near where the rigger was in previous editions.

[Yerameyahu]

Psh. They simply made the riggers *also* be hackers. What's the problem, not enough DP inflation?

[hermit]

That they made the hackers *also* be riggers. That the vehicle rules are moronic, vehicle modding tacked on and improperly done, and that riggerware is sabotaging itself. A streetsam with wired 3 and a decent driving skill has a better chance of success in vehicle tests than a dedicated rigger character (and more init passes when commanding drones).

[Adarael]

Seriously, what? I won't argue the vehcle rules being a clusterfuck, but *riggers are no longer a viable archetype?* They are, if anything, *more* viable, because now they don't have to sink 2-5 essence into their VCR and be totally worthless outside of their vehicle. And I think your assertion that a street sam with wired reflexes 3 can be an equal or better driver than a rigger is ... dubious at best. Here's why:

A street sam with wired 3 a stat of 9, a skill of 4, and AR can get 4 passes and will roll 14 dice on his driving tests. It's not bad, not by any stretch of the imagination. He can't get the Control Rig bonus, though, because he if chooses to use the Control Rig, he can't get his fourth pass.

A rigger/hacker with a stat of 9, and a skill of 4, and hot sim can get 4 passes a lot cheaper. +2 for Hot Sim, +1 for Simsense booster. And he'll be rolling 9 reaction, +4 skill, +2 hot sim bonus, +2 control rig bonus, and that's 17 dice for a much cheaper buy-in than Wired Reflexes 3. He can still pick up wired 2, or a some other meat-booster, and be rocking and rolling the matrix for a fraction of the cost. Plus, he can also buy up his die pools with other cheap ware, and can pick up a Simsense Accellerator and have 5 IPs in hot sim.

The whole point of how riggers are handled in 4th edition is that they can be other things as well. Saying they're not viable is like saying metahumans aren't viable because they aren't automatically saddled with allergies like they used to be.

[hermit]

A street sam with wired 3 a stat of 9, a skill of 4, and AR can get 4 passes and will roll 14 dice on his driving tests. It's not bad, not by any stretch of the imagination. He can't get the Control Rig bonus, though, because he if chooses to use the Control Rig, he can't get his fourth pass.

+ AR bonus, + teamwork with Pilot ...

A rigger/hacker with a stat of 9, and a skill of 4, and hot sim can get 4 passes a lot cheaper. +2 for Hot Sim, +1 for Simsense booster. And he'll be rolling 9 reaction, +4 skill, +2 hot sim bonus, +2 control rig bonus, and that's 17 dice for a much cheaper buy-in than Wired Reflexes 3. He can still pick up wired 2, or a some other meat-booster, and be rocking and rolling the matrix for a fraction of the cost. Plus, he can also buy up his die pools with other cheap ware, and can pick up a Simsense Accellerator and have 5 IPs in hot sim.

And cannot use the rigger nanites then, because those are incompatible with riggers. +3 dice are not that much better either. Nowhere near where they were before. Riggers have a slight edge, like a vehicle adept. That's roughly 1 Essence point spent on something that doesn't get you a whole lot of return.

The whole point of how riggers are handled in 4th edition is that they can be other things as well.

Exactly. Being a rigger has become a mere add-on on another archetype, like the hacker or the streetsam.

[sabs]

remember Rigger nanites only count towards vehicle tests.

So they only help you with response+vehicle skill tests.

[hermit]

Yeah ... makes the rigger all the less worthwhile.

[Adarael]

+ AR bonus, + teamwork with Pilot ...

That counts the AR bonus, yo. 1 die. 9+4 = 13. It'd 14 because of that extra 1. If we're counting teamwork with pilot, the rigger jumped-in gets it too.

And cannot use the rigger nanites then, because those are incompatible with riggers. +3 dice are not that much better either. Nowhere near where they were before. Riggers have a slight edge, like a vehicle adept. That's roughly 1 Essence point spent on something that doesn't get you a whole lot of return.

It was merely an illustration. if I'm going to invest karma in "being a rigger" instead of "being a street sam", that die bonus is going to jump to 7 or 8, because I'd rather invest in Rigger nanites, and extra IPs don't matter as much when you have a 2 tons of metal between you and the enemy, or you're jumped into a drone, or whatever. The driving skill would also because 6 with a specialization, rather than 4. Our difference is now immense, because you're also forgetting the biggest difference when I'm jumped in: I need one less success than you to succeed at any test, because I'm jumped in, using hot sim, and have a control rig. My thresholds are one lower. That's statsically a 3-die bonus as well. Effectively, you roll 14 dice, and I roll 25 or so.

If you say you can also invest karma into skills, well congratulations. I can invest karma into street sam skills. Which brings me to the next point:

Exactly. Being a rigger has become a mere add-on on another archetype, like the hacker or the streetsam.

And the problem with this is *what*, exactly? You're bitching about the fact that people can now eat a sandwich AND drink a coke, rather than have to drink the coke OR eat the sandwich. Your complaint is *pants-on-head crazy*. You don't like people *having options*?!

[hermit]

And the problem with this is *what*, exactly? You're bitching about the fact that people can now eat a sandwich AND drink a coke, rather than have to drink the coke OR eat the sandwich.

I'm bitching about every meal on the menu becoming a supersized BigMac meal, that way.

You don't like people *having options*?!

I dislike every archetype being made an *option* except for supermages and supermancers.

[Yerameyahu]

Ridiculous. A dedicated rigger is excellent.

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, you can still build a stupidly broken rigger in SR4.

That it can ALSO do non-rigger stuff pretty well I would call a positive, not a negative.

Really, in SR4, it is more helpful to STOP thinking in terms of archetypes. Most optimally efficient characters are not one particular type, they tend to be blends of different focuses. And there's multiple ways to fill many of the character roles - you can have a TM-rigger, a implant-rigger, or an adept-rigger, and each will be pretty damn good at it.



-k