More than metahuman, shifters Options

[FooBot]

If a shifter opts to be not human, and chooses to change their shift power to shift them to a non human metatype, what benefits of that metatype do they get?
RC says they gain the standard metatype abilities, does this include stat modifications? If so does anyone know how those would work with the already augmented shifter attributes?

As an example Bear Shifter to Troll or Lion Shifter to Elf.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

You add everything to both forms, if I'm not mistaken.

I'll work with the Jaguar Shapeshifter, because that's the one I know the stats without consulting the book.

An Elf Jaguar Shapeshifter would cost 95 points and would have Agility 6/11 (16) and Charisma would be 3/7 (10), the rest would keep the same.

[FooBot]

To me thats hard to believe bear trolls would have like 12 starting body and strength or some weirdness...

[Yerameyahu]

Well, nobody said the shifter rules were good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) At least they can't really get 'ware, right? So, more super-adepts.

[FooBot]

Actually I think they can receive Deltaware. That could make for some scary critter...

[ShadowWalker]

(pg 87 rc, see metatype attribute table pg 72 sr4)

So they are basically saying merge the two tables together, so if you were to create a Troll/Bear Shifter you would have the following:

Body 11/16 (24)
Agility 1/3 (4)
Reaction 1/5 (7)
Strength 11/16 (24)
Charisma 1/4 (6)
Intuition 1/4 (6)
Logic 1/4 (6)
Willpower 1/5 (7)

So yes, those are some crazy attributes.
And you can get all of this for 80 points for the bear, and 30 points for the troll. pg 87 rc says -10 on the cost of the new metatype.

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I meant when I said that they basically *can't*. It's deltaware, see?

[FooBot]

Type O body anyone?

or does that only work for essence and nuyen costs?

[Yerameyahu]

There's a fair bit of historical debate on that point. I'm in the camp of 'no, you munchkin, don't be stupid'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Especially in the the case of shifters, which aren't really metahuman (other flavors of that debate are about Infected, etc.).

[Medicineman]

RC says they gain the standard metatype abilities,
The Standard Metatype Abilities are (by RAW) Infravision,Low Light Vision ,+2Dice to toxins,
Dermal Skin,etc
It doesn't include the Attributes/Stats

Hough !
Medicineman

[Bodak]

Would a Troll Bear shapeshifter with Elongated Limbs and Dermal Deposits have a natural reach of 3 and dermal armour of 3?

[Grinder]

RC says they gain the standard metatype abilities,
The Standard Metatype Abilities are (by RAW) Infravision,Low Light Vision ,+2Dice to toxins,
Dermal Skin,etc
It doesn't include the Attributes/Stats

Hough !
Medicineman

Page number?

[Mäx]

(pg 87 rc, see metatype attribute table pg 72 sr4)

So they are basically saying merge the two tables together, so if you were to create a Troll/Bear Shifter you would have the following:

Body 11/16 (24)
Agility 1/3 (4)
Reaction 1/5 (7)
Strength 11/16 (24)
Charisma 1/4 (6)
Intuition 1/4 (6)
Logic 1/4 (6)
Willpower 1/5 (7)

So yes, those are some crazy attributes.
And you can get all of this for 80 points for the bear, and 30 points for the troll. pg 87 rc says -10 on the cost of the new metatype.

Well those are actually pretty damm sucky attributes, yeah the 11 body is good for resisting damage, but the strenght is pretty much useless outside of melee(well okey with softweave armor, it theoretically allows more armor, but good luck figuring out a combination of worn armor giving 33 points of armor)
And for those 2 high stats, you take penalties for every single other stat most of all to the best attribute there is agility suffers cripling penalties.

[KarmaInferno]

So... attribute-wise..

Pretty much the complete opposite of a Pixie.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




-k

[Draco18s]

Friend of mine did play a bear shifter adept. All his adept powers were for more melee damage and for more damage against objects.

He could tunnel through reinforced concrete as fast as he could walk.

We called him Bear Who Walks Through Walls.

[Seth]

I hate to say this, but I don't think you are correct in your interpretation. You don't get the attribute mods, you get the other stuff like reach, thermo vision, low light vision etc.

Shapeshifters look mostly human—normally. Through
some quirk of magic or paragenetics, some shapeshifters
can transform into a form that more closely resembles another
metatype, or even metavariants. This is represented
by changing their Shift (Human) power to another, as
appropriate—Shift (Elf), Shift(Oni), etc.—and spending an
additional number of BP equal to the typical cost for that
race –10 BP. A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains
their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute
Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form.

If you look at that table there is a column called metatype abilities.

[Glyph]

Yeah, I agree with Medicineman's interpretation. I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that these abilities are found in something called the Metatype Attribute Table.

[Omenowl]

Yeah, I agree with Medicineman's interpretation. I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that these abilities are found in something called the Metatype Attribute Table.

Now if you get a minotaur or cyclops then you would add the metagenic improvement.

[Glyph]

Fomori are even better. Metagenetic Body improvement and arcane arrester.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't see why it matters *what* you gain. The rules say you get the abilities of the metahuman form… while in metahuman form. Right? So, this is basically a non-event.

[Medicineman]

Page number?

BBB !
in the German BBB its Page 105
Metatype Attribute
under each entry (Human,Ork,Dwarf,Elf,Troll)
there is a Line called Special Abilities
and these are the Ones we're talking/writing about
(Oh, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Seth and Glyph allready mentioned it )

@Yeramehau
No you get these Abilitis in your natural,your Animal Form
but since its mostly Low Light or IR Vison its not that big a thing.
Reach +1 and Dermal deposits are ok,but 40 BP just for that ??
A Fomori (or Gnome) on the other hand...Arcane Arrester is a big Advantage
(Neoteny on the other Hand....)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Omenowl]

From the errata:

If you are using the Not Always Quite Human Optional Rule (p.87, RC), does that change the shapeshifter's attributes?

No, unless the metavariant possesses the Metagenetic Improvement Quality. Shapeshifter characters under the Not Always Quite Human Optional Rule gain the Metatype Abilities (p.81, SR4A), including any Metagenetic Qualities if they choose a metavariant (pp.71-72, Ars) when shifted into that form.

Cecilia wishes to make a bear shapeshifter character and use the Not Always Quite Human option so that his other form is that of a troll. The additional cost of this option is 40 BP (troll metatype cost) - 10 BP, for a total of 30 BP. On her character sheet, Cecilia writes down the Shift(Troll) Critter Power. In bear form, Cecilia's character has the bear shapeshifter's normal shifter abilities (+1 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Sense (Smell)); in troll form her character adds a troll's metatype abilities (for a total of +2 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Senses (Smell, Thermographic Vision).

That should clarify the argument.

[Mäx]

From the errata:

Where can we find this errata?
As far as i can tell RC:s errata is still unreleased.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, Medicineman, it seems really clear that you get to be the metahuman *in* metahuman form. I don't see anything about what you're suggesting. Once again:

A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form.

It's just a really verbose way of saying that a Troll shifter becomes a Troll.

[Draco18s]

On her character sheet, Cecilia writes down the Shift(Troll) Critter Power. In bear form, Cecilia's character has the bear shapeshifter's normal shifter abilities (+1 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Sense (Smell)); in troll form her character adds a troll's metatype abilities (for a total of +2 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Senses (Smell, Thermographic Vision).

That should clarify the argument.

Wait, the reach stacked, but not the natural armor?