If a shifter opts to be not human, and chooses to change their shift power to shift them to a non human metatype, what benefits of that metatype do they get?
RC says they gain the standard metatype abilities, does this include stat modifications? If so does anyone know how those would work with the already augmented shifter attributes?
As an example Bear Shifter to Troll or Lion Shifter to Elf.
Full Version: More than metahuman
You add everything to both forms, if I'm not mistaken.
I'll work with the Jaguar Shapeshifter, because that's the one I know the stats without consulting the book.
An Elf Jaguar Shapeshifter would cost 95 points and would have Agility 6/11 (16) and Charisma would be 3/7 (10), the rest would keep the same.
I'll work with the Jaguar Shapeshifter, because that's the one I know the stats without consulting the book.
An Elf Jaguar Shapeshifter would cost 95 points and would have Agility 6/11 (16) and Charisma would be 3/7 (10), the rest would keep the same.
To me thats hard to believe bear trolls would have like 12 starting body and strength or some weirdness...
Well, nobody said the shifter rules were good. 
At least they can't really get 'ware, right? So, more super-adepts.
At least they can't really get 'ware, right? So, more super-adepts.
Actually I think they can receive Deltaware. That could make for some scary critter...
(pg 87 rc, see metatype attribute table pg 72 sr4)
So they are basically saying merge the two tables together, so if you were to create a Troll/Bear Shifter you would have the following:
Body 11/16 (24)
Agility 1/3 (4)
Reaction 1/5 (7)
Strength 11/16 (24)
Charisma 1/4 (6)
Intuition 1/4 (6)
Logic 1/4 (6)
Willpower 1/5 (7)
So yes, those are some crazy attributes.
And you can get all of this for 80 points for the bear, and 30 points for the troll. pg 87 rc says -10 on the cost of the new metatype.
So they are basically saying merge the two tables together, so if you were to create a Troll/Bear Shifter you would have the following:
Body 11/16 (24)
Agility 1/3 (4)
Reaction 1/5 (7)
Strength 11/16 (24)
Charisma 1/4 (6)
Intuition 1/4 (6)
Logic 1/4 (6)
Willpower 1/5 (7)
So yes, those are some crazy attributes.
And you can get all of this for 80 points for the bear, and 30 points for the troll. pg 87 rc says -10 on the cost of the new metatype.
That's what I meant when I said that they basically *can't*. It's deltaware, see?
Type O body anyone?
or does that only work for essence and nuyen costs?
or does that only work for essence and nuyen costs?
There's a fair bit of historical debate on that point. I'm in the camp of 'no, you munchkin, don't be stupid'. 
Especially in the the case of shifters, which aren't really metahuman (other flavors of that debate are about Infected, etc.).
Especially in the the case of shifters, which aren't really metahuman (other flavors of that debate are about Infected, etc.).
RC says they gain the standard metatype abilities,
The Standard Metatype Abilities are (by RAW) Infravision,Low Light Vision ,+2Dice to toxins,
Dermal Skin,etc
It doesn't include the Attributes/Stats
Hough !
Medicineman
The Standard Metatype Abilities are (by RAW) Infravision,Low Light Vision ,+2Dice to toxins,
Dermal Skin,etc
It doesn't include the Attributes/Stats
Hough !
Medicineman
Would a Troll Bear shapeshifter with Elongated Limbs and Dermal Deposits have a natural reach of 3 and dermal armour of 3?
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jan 25 2011, 07:50 AM) 
RC says they gain the standard metatype abilities,
The Standard Metatype Abilities are (by RAW) Infravision,Low Light Vision ,+2Dice to toxins,
Dermal Skin,etc
It doesn't include the Attributes/Stats
Hough !
Medicineman
The Standard Metatype Abilities are (by RAW) Infravision,Low Light Vision ,+2Dice to toxins,
Dermal Skin,etc
It doesn't include the Attributes/Stats
Hough !
Medicineman
Page number?
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jan 25 2011, 06:17 AM)
(pg 87 rc, see metatype attribute table pg 72 sr4)
So they are basically saying merge the two tables together, so if you were to create a Troll/Bear Shifter you would have the following:
Body 11/16 (24)
Agility 1/3 (4)
Reaction 1/5 (7)
Strength 11/16 (24)
Charisma 1/4 (6)
Intuition 1/4 (6)
Logic 1/4 (6)
Willpower 1/5 (7)
So yes, those are some crazy attributes.
And you can get all of this for 80 points for the bear, and 30 points for the troll. pg 87 rc says -10 on the cost of the new metatype.
So they are basically saying merge the two tables together, so if you were to create a Troll/Bear Shifter you would have the following:
Body 11/16 (24)
Agility 1/3 (4)
Reaction 1/5 (7)
Strength 11/16 (24)
Charisma 1/4 (6)
Intuition 1/4 (6)
Logic 1/4 (6)
Willpower 1/5 (7)
So yes, those are some crazy attributes.
And you can get all of this for 80 points for the bear, and 30 points for the troll. pg 87 rc says -10 on the cost of the new metatype.
Well those are actually pretty damm sucky attributes, yeah the 11 body is good for resisting damage, but the strenght is pretty much useless outside of melee(well okey with softweave armor, it theoretically allows more armor, but good luck figuring out a combination of worn armor giving 33 points of armor)
And for those 2 high stats, you take penalties for every single other stat most of all to the best attribute there is agility suffers cripling penalties.
So... attribute-wise..
Pretty much the complete opposite of a Pixie.
-k
Pretty much the complete opposite of a Pixie.
-k
Friend of mine did play a bear shifter adept. All his adept powers were for more melee damage and for more damage against objects.
He could tunnel through reinforced concrete as fast as he could walk.
We called him Bear Who Walks Through Walls.
He could tunnel through reinforced concrete as fast as he could walk.
We called him Bear Who Walks Through Walls.
I hate to say this, but I don't think you are correct in your interpretation. You don't get the attribute mods, you get the other stuff like reach, thermo vision, low light vision etc.
If you look at that table there is a column called metatype abilities.
QUOTE
Shapeshifters look mostly human—normally. Through
some quirk of magic or paragenetics, some shapeshifters
can transform into a form that more closely resembles another
metatype, or even metavariants. This is represented
by changing their Shift (Human) power to another, as
appropriate—Shift (Elf), Shift(Oni), etc.—and spending an
additional number of BP equal to the typical cost for that
race –10 BP. A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains
their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute
Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form.
some quirk of magic or paragenetics, some shapeshifters
can transform into a form that more closely resembles another
metatype, or even metavariants. This is represented
by changing their Shift (Human) power to another, as
appropriate—Shift (Elf), Shift(Oni), etc.—and spending an
additional number of BP equal to the typical cost for that
race –10 BP. A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains
their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute
Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form.
If you look at that table there is a column called metatype abilities.
Yeah, I agree with Medicineman's interpretation. I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that these abilities are found in something called the Metatype Attribute Table.
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 25 2011, 08:48 PM)
Yeah, I agree with Medicineman's interpretation. I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that these abilities are found in something called the Metatype Attribute Table.
Now if you get a minotaur or cyclops then you would add the metagenic improvement.
Fomori are even better. Metagenetic Body improvement and arcane arrester.
I don't see why it matters *what* you gain. The rules say you get the abilities of the metahuman form… while in metahuman form. Right? So, this is basically a non-event.
QUOTE (Grinder @ Jan 25 2011, 08:05 AM)
Page number?
BBB !
in the German BBB its Page 105
Metatype Attribute
under each entry (Human,Ork,Dwarf,Elf,Troll)
there is a Line called Special Abilities
and these are the Ones we're talking/writing about
(Oh,
Seth and Glyph allready mentioned it )@Yeramehau
No you get these Abilitis in your natural,your Animal Form
but since its mostly Low Light or IR Vison its not that big a thing.
Reach +1 and Dermal deposits are ok,but 40 BP just for that ??
A Fomori (or Gnome) on the other hand...Arcane Arrester is a big Advantage
(Neoteny on the other Hand....)
HokaHey
Medicineman
From the errata:
That should clarify the argument.
If you are using the Not Always Quite Human Optional Rule (p.87, RC), does that change the shapeshifter's attributes?
No, unless the metavariant possesses the Metagenetic Improvement Quality. Shapeshifter characters under the Not Always Quite Human Optional Rule gain the Metatype Abilities (p.81, SR4A), including any Metagenetic Qualities if they choose a metavariant (pp.71-72, Ars) when shifted into that form.
Cecilia wishes to make a bear shapeshifter character and use the Not Always Quite Human option so that his other form is that of a troll. The additional cost of this option is 40 BP (troll metatype cost) - 10 BP, for a total of 30 BP. On her character sheet, Cecilia writes down the Shift(Troll) Critter Power. In bear form, Cecilia's character has the bear shapeshifter's normal shifter abilities (+1 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Sense (Smell)); in troll form her character adds a troll's metatype abilities (for a total of +2 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Senses (Smell, Thermographic Vision).
That should clarify the argument.
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 26 2011, 12:42 PM)
From the errata:
Where can we find this errata?
As far as i can tell RC:s errata is still unreleased.
Yeah, Medicineman, it seems really clear that you get to be the metahuman *in* metahuman form. I don't see anything about what you're suggesting. Once again:
QUOTE
A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form.
It's just a really verbose way of saying that a Troll shifter becomes a Troll.
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 26 2011, 05:42 AM)
On her character sheet, Cecilia writes down the Shift(Troll) Critter Power. In bear form, Cecilia's character has the bear shapeshifter's normal shifter abilities (+1 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Sense (Smell)); in troll form her character adds a troll's metatype abilities (for a total of +2 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Senses (Smell, Thermographic Vision).
That should clarify the argument.
That should clarify the argument.
Wait, the reach stacked, but not the natural armor?
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml
Does no one read these things?
The bears natural armor is only in the bear form. It has a little asterisk stating this in RC
Does no one read these things?
The bears natural armor is only in the bear form. It has a little asterisk stating this in RC
My sincerest apologies then. I can't be bothered to look up every single tiny detail, especially when I'm not at home where my books are.
And no, no one reads the FAQ except to use it to contradict RAW.
Besides, why does a bear's Reach apply in metahuman form, if its armor doesn't?
And no, no one reads the FAQ except to use it to contradict RAW.
Besides, why does a bear's Reach apply in metahuman form, if its armor doesn't?
Because it says so.
But I asked why it says so. 
I can't imagine. As far as I'm concerned, nothing should apply to the metahuman form, and vice versa. You get two forms. If they wanted Crinos form, they should include that separately.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 26 2011, 06:31 PM)
My sincerest apologies then. I can't be bothered to look up every single tiny detail, especially when I'm not at home where my books are.
And no, no one reads the FAQ except to use it to contradict RAW.
Besides, why does a bear's Reach apply in metahuman form, if its armor doesn't?
And no, no one reads the FAQ except to use it to contradict RAW.
Besides, why does a bear's Reach apply in metahuman form, if its armor doesn't?
Probably because the stats would indicate a bear shifter is larger than a troll in the human form.
So I agreed with the FAQ?
Now I feel dirty.
Now I feel dirty.
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 26 2011, 08:59 PM)
So I agreed with the FAQ?
Now I feel dirty.
Now I feel dirty.
Well I think of it like a solution manual. You get the answer right and just had it verified on your homework.
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 26 2011, 05:42 AM)
Cecilia wishes to make a bear shapeshifter character and use the Not Always Quite Human option so that his other form is that of a troll. The additional cost of this option is 40 BP (troll metatype cost) - 10 BP, for a total of 30 BP. On her character sheet, Cecilia writes down the Shift(Troll) Critter Power. In bear form, Cecilia's character has the bear shapeshifter's normal shifter abilities (+1 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Sense (Smell)); in troll form her character adds a troll's metatype abilities (for a total of +2 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Senses (Smell, Thermographic Vision).[/indent]
That should clarify the argument.
That should clarify the argument.
I think the bolding makes my point.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 26 2011, 07:56 AM)
Wait, the reach stacked, but not the natural armor?
The bear shapeshifter's natural armor states, in the description, that it only applies to critter form. It's a specific exception overriding a general rule.
By the way, it looks like fomori aren't quite as good a deal - the shift power gives a shapeshifter access to all of the non-paranormal abilities innate to that race. So no arcane arrester.
QUOTE (Aku @ Jan 27 2011, 01:03 AM)
I think the bolding makes my point.
You mean that Cecilia is a Cross-Gender-Player ?
With a Cross-Dancing-Post
Medicineman
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 27 2011, 02:24 AM)
Nope, i just from time to time print it out and use it's as toilet paper, because that's the only think that piece of crap is worth as
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 27 2011, 09:27 AM)
By the way, it looks like fomori aren't quite as good a deal - the shift power gives a shapeshifter access to all of the non-paranormal abilities innate to that race. So no arcane arrester.
Man, you can't just post claims like this with out quoting the rules, because i can't find that statement anywhere in the rules.
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 27 2011, 02:27 AM)
Nope, i just from time to time print it out and use it's as toilet paper, because that's the only think that piece of crap is worth as
Man, you can't just post claims like this with out quoting the rules, because i can't find that statement anywhere in the rules.
Man, you can't just post claims like this with out quoting the rules, because i can't find that statement anywhere in the rules.
I guess the arcane arrester only applies while in metahuman form. That said it does cause issues with metagenic improvement. Still it does do weird things with gnome shapeshifters...
It seems very straightforward that everything applies only in metahuman form.
You might as well be a troll shifter and SURGE.
I am getting the rule from page 85 of Runner's Companion, in the black text box labeled "NEW CRITTER POWER: SHIFT". The relevant part of it is:
"When in their new shape, the creature gains access to all non-paranormal abilities innate to that race, including Armor, Natural Weapons, and Enhanced Senses, if any."
"When in their new shape, the creature gains access to all non-paranormal abilities innate to that race, including Armor, Natural Weapons, and Enhanced Senses, if any."
QUOTE (Aku @ Jan 27 2011, 04:03 PM)
I think the bolding makes my point.
Then I have missed your point altogether. What's wrong with Cecilia (female) playing a bear shapeshifter (male) character where his other form is that of a troll? Cecilia writes stuff on her character sheet because she is the player. As Medicineman says, if you're objecting to players with characters of the opposite sex, fair enough... but that does seems kinda off-topic. If not, then maybe making your point explicitly the first time around would have been better after all?
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 27 2011, 10:08 PM)
I am getting the rule from page 85 of Runner's Companion, in the black text box labeled "NEW CRITTER POWER: SHIFT". The relevant part of it is:
"When in their new shape, the creature gains access to all non-paranormal abilities innate to that race, including Armor, Natural Weapons, and Enhanced Senses, if any."
"When in their new shape, the creature gains access to all non-paranormal abilities innate to that race, including Armor, Natural Weapons, and Enhanced Senses, if any."
Okey this is just epic fail from the writers, i was just reading page 88
QUOTE
Shift (Human)
A shapeshifter can only assume a single, specific human form,
chosen at character creation. This form is the same gender as the
animal, and generally shares other traits as well—eyes of the same
color, hair similar to the animal’s fur or plumage, distinctive scars
and injuries, tattoos, etc. The human form’s apparent ethnicity is
often (but not always), similar to that of humans residing in its
native area and possesses unique fingerprints and retinas which
are consistent from transformation to transformation. Samples of
tissue taken from the human form will show animal, not human,
DNA and can serve as material links (see Material Links, p. 28,
Street Magic) to the character regardless of current form.
Shapeshifters retain all of their powers and weaknesses in
shifted human form except for their Natural Weapon.
A shapeshifter can only assume a single, specific human form,
chosen at character creation. This form is the same gender as the
animal, and generally shares other traits as well—eyes of the same
color, hair similar to the animal’s fur or plumage, distinctive scars
and injuries, tattoos, etc. The human form’s apparent ethnicity is
often (but not always), similar to that of humans residing in its
native area and possesses unique fingerprints and retinas which
are consistent from transformation to transformation. Samples of
tissue taken from the human form will show animal, not human,
DNA and can serve as material links (see Material Links, p. 28,
Street Magic) to the character regardless of current form.
Shapeshifters retain all of their powers and weaknesses in
shifted human form except for their Natural Weapon.
And as you can see that mentions nothing about that
… because it's talking about a Human.
I don't see the contradiction. A shifter is a animal who can turn into a human. Not the other way around.
In this case when the bear shifts to a metahuman they gain the metahuman's base abilities.
In this case when the bear shifts to a metahuman they gain the metahuman's base abilities.
Which is to say, they become a metahuman in form. It's such a simple concept.
QUOTE (Bodak @ Jan 27 2011, 06:23 PM)
Then I have missed your point altogether. What's wrong with Cecilia (female) playing a bear shapeshifter (male) character where his other form is that of a troll? Cecilia writes stuff on her character sheet because she is the player. As Medicineman says, if you're objecting to players with characters of the opposite sex, fair enough... but that does seems kinda off-topic. If not, then maybe making your point explicitly the first time around would have been better after all?
Uh, i guess it was late, and i totally missed that, it looked initially, to be poor proofreading, to me, initially. Perhaps it was because they didnt name the character that i didnt even see that possibility. silly english language...
I think we're ignoring the possibilities that Cecilia is a male's name, and that this person like to use alternating gender adjectives (for fun, it's performance art transgressing your stodgy gender norms!).
I think the bears natural armor is supposed to come from it's pelt.
Which, of course, is not there when not in bear form.
even if the metahuman personality may have more body hair than usual . .
Which, of course, is not there when not in bear form.
even if the metahuman personality may have more body hair than usual . .
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 29 2011, 02:06 PM)
I think the bears natural armor is supposed to come from it's pelt.
Which, of course, is not there when not in bear form.
even if the metahuman personality may have more body hair than usual . .
Which, of course, is not there when not in bear form.
even if the metahuman personality may have more body hair than usual . .
And the reach?
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