Hot Sim & Control Rig, Simple question on rules Options

[Eddy Munster]

I know this should be clear from the books, and it most likely has been asked, but my player and I are in a discussion about it.

When a rigger is jumped in to a drone, the Control Rig gives them a +2 to all actions. With a Hot Sim the rigger gets a +2 to all matrix actions and that all actions a rigger takes while jumped in are matrix actions.

So in this jumble I think the rigger jumped in gets a basic +4 dice to everything they do.

My question is though, do they get this to rolls to perform driving stunts?

Crash tests?

Shooting drone mounted weapons?

Senser tests and sensor assisted gunnery?

Is there an easy way to distinguish when these bonus dice for hot sim apply?

Much help for answers to this and I apologize in advance for redundancy if this has been clarified before.

[Udoshi]

I know the FAQ has a good deal of answers for riggers.

I usually hesitate to recommend the FAQ, because there's some contradictory answers in there, but in this case, its good info.


As for your specific instances:
Hot-Sim adds to all matrix tests.
Control Rig adds to all vehicle tests.

If he is using the car, he gets to claim the control rig. If he is not, then he doesn't.

As a rule of thumb:
Control Rig doesn't work in AR-Mode.
It doesn't provide bonuses to an agent or pilot, only your rigger's own actions.
Consult the Common Rolls For Riggers table.
If he's doing something with the car, he probably gets the bonus. This may include: Pilot, Sensor/Perception, Gunnery, Infiltration.(its used to evade other vehicle's sensors)

[Eddy Munster]

Thank you for the link to the FAQ. I hear so many bad things about it I never look at it as I automatically think it has the wrong information.

Ok so the FAQ has that exact question in it and says it is +4 Dice to everything when jumped in a drone or vehicle with hot sim.

Thanks a bunch for the fast response.

[Udoshi]

the FAQ is actually pretty good when you realize that some answers are over 5 years old, for an edition and a half ago - if its a contradictory answer, just assume Anniversary Edition supercedes it.

Specializations and Mystic adepts, i'm looking at you.

[Yerameyahu]

Just for kicks, let's break it down:

'Jumped-In' is always VR, uses the special Jumped-In dice pools.
VR is Hot or Cold, with +2 for Hot.
Control Rig is +2 for vehicle tests while jumped-in.

… So you can have everything from +0 to +4, depending. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now ask about the -1 Threshold bonus for 'Driving with Virtual Reality'. I dare you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Udoshi]

How bout the '+1 for driving with AR, or subscribed to the vehicle as a service?'

It doesn't apply if you're accessing it remotely, but if you're physically inside the car, then you get it, right?

Rigger coccoons, fuck yeah!

[Dakka Dakka]

How bout the '+1 for driving with AR, or subscribed to the vehicle as a service?'

It doesn't apply if you're accessing it remotely, but if you're physically inside the car, then you get it, right?

Rigger coccoons, fuck yeah!

The answer is in the rule itself. You do not get an AR bonus when in VR. You do however get that bonus if you are remote-controlling the vehicle, as long as you are using augmented reality.

[Yerameyahu]

… No, you don't. "If they are remotely controlling the vehicle, they receive no bonus."

For the -1 Threshold VR bonus, though, I honestly don't know what the RAW means. Can you drive a car in VR *without* being Jumped In (like a sort of super-Augmented Reality)? If not, then it must apply to Jumped In. I know that Jumped In is always VR; is VR always Jumped In?

[Fortinbras]

Perhaps if I'm fighting Black IC in my node while driving the get away vehicle I'm getting the -1 for driving in VR while not jumped into the car. That sort of thing, maybe?
I always viewed getting the +1 AR bonus was when physically driving the car, using AROs and what not.

[Makki]

you can drive VR using Command.

[Yerameyahu]

That's indeed what the +1 AR is for; you must be in the car, using a 'car-AR' subscription.

Remote Control, Makki? There *is* that, you're right. That raises more questions than it answers, because the +1 AR specifically *doesn't* work for Remote Control (so a slight *conceptual* conflict there, though I realize we're not talking about AR). Hmm. I guess I never thought about it before: what would 'VR driving' be if not Remote Control or Jumped In? Anything?

[Dakka Dakka]

That's what I get for only commenting n what other people said, instead of checking the passage myself. You are right of course.

[Mardrax]

I'd think the difference between VR driving and rigging would be the difference between being in the virtual driver's seat, or "being" the car.
It shouldn't matter if the VR control would be exerted remotely or while being physically present in the vehicle. For AR control, you get ARO overlays and whatnot, where it does matter. For VR control, you might as well be in space, were it not for the Sat Uplink delay (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Sounds right enough to me, Mardrax. Virtual driver seat, with no real-life distractions, and everything is extra-expressive, etc., and you're faster than meat. It has to justify the big -1 Threshold, after all. Now, does it apply to rigging? I can't see why not, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

Sounds right enough to me, Mardrax. Virtual driver seat, with no real-life distractions, and everything is extra-expressive, etc., and you're faster than meat. It has to justify the big -1 Threshold, after all. Now, does it apply to rigging? I can't see why not, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I've never seen this -1 to threshholds

Do you have book&verse?

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, it's been there forever, immediately below the AR +1. Um, SR4A p168.

I know I've seen arguments here about whether the -1 Threshold applies to opposed tests (specifically, dodging). I feel like it probably doesn't, but I guess you could allow it.

Another issue: do Pilots (drones) get this? Technically, they're not in VR, but merely 'acting at digital speeds'. And drones are hard enough to kill already, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mardrax]

Drones don't make Vehicle tests, they make Maneuver tests. So no.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, well there you go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

The answer is in the rule itself. You do not get an AR bonus when in VR. You do however get that bonus if you are remote-controlling the vehicle, as long as you are using augmented reality.

Not technically true - you get the bonus as long as you are subscribed to the vehicle as a service. In fact, the second half of the sentence specifically says so. (it just goes away if you're remote controlling it).

I'm not talking about getting the AR/Subscription bonus while remote controlling a vehicle; rather, at +1 for a rigger being physically in the card, hardlinked into it, is a reasonable bonus for a rigger putting their meat-body on the line when they don't have to.

That is to say; not remote controlling it from across the city via wireless.

Edit: Remote Control is tied to Control Device, anyway. There's also a major downside to this method: The Pilot specialization(remote control +2) no longer applies. Normally its a very good specialty, because it applies to ALL vehicle types as long as you're rigging. But if you'renot remote controlling, you're not remote controlling.

I know I've seen arguments here about whether the -1 Threshold applies to opposed tests (specifically, dodging). I feel like it probably doesn't, but I guess you could allow it.

Another issue: do Pilots (drones) get this? Technically, they're not in VR, but merely 'acting at digital speeds'. And drones are hard enough to kill already, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No, thresholds are never applied to opposed tests. (the line is somewhere around page 60, where the types of tests are described) It doesn't work.

Pilots DO get the vr-threshold reduction, but not the hotsim+2. I know i've seen this rule somewhere. I think it might've been in the FAQ

Edit: Its on arsenal 103

Drones don't make Vehicle tests, they make Maneuver tests. So no.

Sadly, maneuver tests are vehicle tests. (complex actions,4a 169).
Anyway, per arsenal, drones ARE vehicles(just tiny ones). The rules don't really distinguish between them.

[Mardrax]

Sadly, maneuver tests are vehicle tests. (complex actions,4a 169).
Anyway, per arsenal, drones ARE vehicles(just tiny ones). The rules don't really distinguish between them.

Ah. You are absolutely right. "A drone with this autosoft uses Pilot + Maneuver for Vehicle tests" (SR4a pg 246). Learn something new every day, to read more carefully, for example.
The "no thresholds on opposed tests" rule is on SR4a pg 63.
Also note that use of all autosofts other than Maneuver still aren't Vehicle tests, so don't get the threshold reduction even if they are normal success tests.

[Udoshi]

Ah. You are absolutely right. "A drone with this autosoft uses Pilot + Maneuver for Vehicle tests" (SR4a pg 246). Learn something new every day, to read more carefully, for example.
The "no thresholds on opposed tests" rule is on SR4a pg 63.
Also note that use of all autosofts other than Maneuver still aren't Vehicle tests, so don't get the threshold reduction even if they are normal success tests.

Why not? Autosofts are used instead of a Skill.

A Vehicle Test is a Vehicle Test, whether or not you're rolling Pilot+maneuver or Response+Piloting.

Your interpretation of the rules - which is wrong - denies riggers their -1 threshold, by using the same logic.

Because vehicle tests are a category of tests, not a specific check.

[Mardrax]

Some (mostly) strictly RAW nitpicking, I'll try and be as coherent and concise as possible:

1) Vehicle tests are fully explained on pg 168 of SR4a.
"To make a vehicle test, the character rolls Reaction + the appropriate vehicle skill +/– the vehicle’s Handling."
Pilot + Maneuver is explicitly used for Vehicle tests made by drones, as per Maneuver's description on pg 246. This also states that Maneuver is equivalent to "vehicle skills". A rigger substitutes Response for Reaction for any tests made, as per pg 245 'Jumping in'.

2) Other autosofts beside Maneuver are: Clearsight, Defense, Electronic Warfare and Targetting in SR4a, and Adaptability, Chaser, Covert Ops, Profession and Trailblazer in Unwired.

Defense when used for full defense -ie. evasive driving- is a Vehicle test, through: "Vehicles that are under attack can take a Complex Action and undertake evasive driving—the vehicle equivalent of full defense. This means the driver of the vehicle can add his Vehicle skill dice to the defense dice pool to dodge ranged attacks (drones add their Defense autosoft rating, see p. 246)." (SR4a pg 170)

[ Spoiler ]

I note here that the capitalised "Vehicle skill" would normally refer to a specific skill called Vehicle, which doesn't exist. My assumption was that this kind of stuff only applied to Pilot skills, but as I read it now, it might well refer to any skill in the Vehicle active skills category (which are named Vehicle skills in the first line of that subchapter), I see no reason to think Gunnery might not be equally valid as Pilot if this were the case. Interesting.
Next, I note that this seems to create an alternate "Vehicle test", ie. any test involving "Vehicle skill", rather than the explicit line I quoted from pg 168 earlier. this line seems to rule out any vehicle test being made with anything other than the dicepools listed in 1).
Lastly, I note that capitalised and non-capitalised versions of the term Vehicle skill seem to be used interchangably. I wonder as to the function of the capitalising, if there is any. The same seem to be true for the term "Vehicle test", mixing it up several times on SR4a pg 168 alone.

As for Defense in its normal use of parrying melee attacks, wether or not it can by RAW be construed as a Vehicle test is questionable, as: "This program enables the drone to identify, guard against, and even dodge physical attacks made against it. A drone equipped with a Defense autosoft can parry against melee attacks (using Defense + Pilot) and use full defense (p. 160) against an incoming attack."
Nowhere is the term "vehicle test" mentioned, or Pilot skill used. If anyone could tell me a reason why this roll should get the +2 bonus from VCR I'd be very interested.

On the point of threshold reduction though, the question of wether or not it's a Vehicle skill is in both cases moot as they're inherently opposed tests.

Any use of the other Autosofts is never a Vehicle test. They're never named as such, nor do they ever include a Vehicle skill. They should hence never benefit from the -1 threshold reduction, or the +2 bonus from VCR.

Only possible exception being a rigger firing a gun, using Gunnery + Sensor or Command. He'd always be entitled the +2 VCR bonus, and the -1 threshold modifier when just making a succes test for some reason. This because Gunnery is a Vehicle skill.

[Udoshi]

Pilot + Maneuver is explicitly used for Vehicle tests made by drones, as per Maneuver's description on pg 246. This also states that Maneuver is equivalent to "vehicle skills". A rigger substitutes Response for Reaction for any tests made, as per pg 245 'Jumping in'.

Oh, come on, leaving stuff out doesn't help your cause.

4a 246: Maneuver(vehicle type) Last paragraph: A drone with this autosoft uses Pilot + Maneuver for Vehicle Tests.

Therefore, pilots do make vehicle tests.



Basically, the concept you need to wrap your head around is that there are various types and categories of tests in shadowrun 4.X that have nothing to do with the group(outdoors, stealth) of the skill being rolled, the category(vehicle active, technical active), or the pool.
Vehicle Tests are one of them. (and yes, gunnery is a vehicle skill)
Matrix Tests are another - an AI rolling for emulate is a test on the matrix, but isn't made with any program.
The last that I can think off off the top of my head is Perception tests. there are physical, astral, and matrix perception tests. Various qualities and ware that add to perception tests. This category, i think, highlights the clusterfuck of the rules: The Perceptive quality adds to all Perception tests, including Astral Perception, yet you never actually roll Perception when you Assense something. Confusing, huh?

More or less, if you're doing stuff with a vehicle, relevant bonuses apply.
Among other things, this makes it a bitch to tell where and where not to apply Handling modifiers.

[sabs]

That seems pretty damned clear.
Page 338 SR4A

Control Rig: This implant harnesses the raw data-coordinating and synchronization
power of the middle brain for the express purpose of directly manipulating rigged vehicles/
drones. The control rig provides a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the
rigger is “jumped into” a vehicle/drone via full virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to
other drone manipulation through the Matrix.

This only counts when the rigger is jumped in, and only for Vehicle Skill tests (which is pretty specific). Gunnery, and the Pilot Skills.
Drones are always driving a vehicle through Virtual Reality and so should get the -1 threshhold, and the +2 for being Virtual. I don't think they get the +2 from a control rig. Afterall, Pilot programs don't have a Middle brain (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

Sabs: Actually, I don't think Pilots get the Hot-Sim bonus.
So its just -1 threshold.

Giving pilots/agents the "+2 for being virtual" (aka hotsim) bonus would mean AI's get it too, wouldn't they? Then again, they get 3 passes base.


Mardrax: Pilot entities are actually pretty easy to understand/grasp.


4A 167: In general, pilot substitutes for character attributes for any success tests that the vehicle makes. The skill portion is covered by autosoft programs that are loaded into the vehicles memory.

Pilots are handled JUST like every other character in the game. They have initiative, and roll Stat + Skill for everything they do.
The only difference - and where people get caught up - is that they Swapstitute another attribute for Attributes on a test, AND you also swap something else for the skill. Additionally, they're unable to Default. (not having the skill means you can't roll it).
Its similiar to how programs work on the matrix - swapping Program for Attribute (no, really, check the faq. You even default to program -1), except with both halves of the dice pool.