Starting up a new Run after a LONG break., Starting up again and Rusty! Options

[shazar]

Hello!

Our group has been playing D&D 3.5 for the last few years, and we decided on a change of venue into the gritty streets of Shadowrun once again!

I'm not seeing resources for battle mats and such for depicting where characters are on the streets to make things more clear in the heat of battle.

I am curious how you guys handle this that have been playing for so much longer!

1)For Melee combat there is quite a bit of references to things that can happen "within a few meters", interception and just plain melee combat its self. I can't find anything that says you can attack from further away when using reach weapons either... So how do you guys handle this sort of not defined grey area?


2)Also when defending against a melee attack and all you have is a Ranged weapon, can you still defend unarmed? Does it matter if you have 1 pistol or a 2handed AK-97?



On movement, I think I am clear on the part where if you have say 3 IPs you need to split you 30meters of movement into a max of 10meters per IP, but what happens when:

3)A runner only has 1 IP and runs. Does he go the full 30meters in his one IP leaving behind the others that can only go 10meters per IP?

4)Or if you have someone with 4 IPs and they decide they need to run at the 3rd IP, can they only go 30m/4IPs for the last two IPs? Or can they use the whole 30 meters in the last 2 IPs move 15 meters each.

5)Also if you are sprinting as a simple action each IP, does you movement speed keep increasing with every IP?

6)What if you stop sprinting after the first IP, does your total movement rate stay at the sprinting speed, or is that only good for the action phase you sprinted in?


I asked an invis question in another thread, but I'd like to put it here as well to get more focused answers. I understand that if you surprise someone that they can't defend against an attack.

There is mention though that if the NPC is already involved in combat that surprise isn't possible as they are wary of conflict.

7)So if the battle is already started, and the mage turns invisible and starts launching spells (which are hard to notice even if you can see him), what negatives does the defender get? or what positives does the spell caster get?

8)And how would that defender go about locating and shooting with a gun back at the mage? I see mentions of a -6 pool modifier, but no other clues.

9)Also what if that same mage went invis and decided to melee with someone, how would that play out?

10)How would the defender go about locating and attacking the invis mage in melee? Does the -6 pool modifier apply to that as well? the Book is completely absent here.

I just marvel that stuff like this isn't more easily found, surely my group can't be the only one that has read the book and tried to play with these gaping holes of definition!

Thank you so much for your time in reviewing and answering these questions!

[Neurosis]

Let me TRY to answer some of these.

0) What I do is use a printed paper map with an actual scale and have the players mark their position at the end of each turn (or pass, if it matters) in pencil. This is not optimal or the one true best solution, but this is what I do.
2) I allow characters with at least one free-hand to defend with Reaction + Unarmed, and if they have any even semi-relevant Martial Art specialization to unarmed, I waive the free hand requirement.
3) No. I was confused on this too: I think the only sane solution is to have him go ten meters per IP.
4)-6) I honestly have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised to find this varies from table to table, much like the Matrix, in practice.
7) I think being invisible (they can't see you w/o penalized perception test, receive -6 to hit you, etc.) is kind of its own reward. At my table overt offensive actions tend to break invisibility, but that is a house rule, not RAW.
8) He needs to succeed a Perception Test (Intuition + Perception) with a negative modifier equal to the Force of the Invisibility spell to know the general location of the invisible character, then he receives a -6 Blind Fire penalty to attacks targeting the character, which he can't make until he succeeds the Perception Test and locates him. At least, that's my read on it. Same goes for related questions.

[Ascalaphus]

I asked an invis question in another thread, but I'd like to put it here as well to get more focused answers. I understand that if you surprise someone that they can't defend against an attack.

There is mention though that if the NPC is already involved in combat that surprise isn't possible as they are wary of conflict.

7)So if the battle is already started, and the mage turns invisible and starts launching spells (which are hard to notice even if you can see him), what negatives does the defender get? or what positives does the spell caster get?

Spells are actually quite easy to notice. To spot the caster, you need to roll an Intuition+Perception(visual) check at a Threshold of (6 - Force). For a combat spell that'll really hurt, that usually means 1 or less (even below 0) hits needed.
Spells don't have a "color", but they're very far from hard to notice, especially the powerful ones.

8)And how would that defender go about locating and shooting with a gun back at the mage? I see mentions of a -6 pool modifier, but no other clues.

9)Also what if that same mage went invis and decided to melee with someone, how would that play out?

The -6 is for ranged; that's the penalty for shooting in complete and utter darkness, so it'll suffice for an invisible opponent too. In melee it might be easy, but for convenience's sake you could apply the same -6.

10)How would the defender go about locating and attacking the invis mage in melee? Does the -6 pool modifier apply to that as well? the Book is completely absent here.

I just marvel that stuff like this isn't more easily found, surely my group can't be the only one that has read the book and tried to play with these gaping holes of definition!

Thank you so much for your time in reviewing and answering these questions!

I don't really roll for finding him. You get a -6 because finding him is hard, that covers it.

[shazar]

Let me TRY to answer some of these.

0) What I do is use a printed paper map with an actual scale and have the players mark their position at the end of each turn (or pass, if it matters) in pencil. This is not optimal or the one true best solution, but this is what I do.

I guess that would work. I am just used to D&D where everything fits nicely on a battlemat. Seems like it would be hard to measure things correctly with just paper. I guess the scale in Shadowrun are larger then D&D though... with whole cities sometimes being involved.

2) I allow characters with at least one free-hand to defend with Reaction + Unarmed, and if they have any even semi-relevant Martial Art specialization to unarmed, I waive the free hand requirement.

That makes sense to me. But you had to house rule it right? Is it not actually in the rules somewhere?

3) No. I was confused on this too: I think the only sane solution is to have him go ten meters per IP.

So even though the 1IP person runs fully on his turn, he would move out at 10meters each IP even though he has no actions for those IPs?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) He needs to succeed a Perception Test (Intuition + Perception) with a negative modifier equal to the Force of the Invisibility spell to know the general location of the invisible character, then he receives a -6 Blind Fire penalty to attacks targeting the character, which he can't make until he succeeds the Perception Test and locates him. At least, that's my read on it. Same goes for related questions.

I really like this!

[ProfGast]

That makes sense to me. But you had to house rule it right? Is it not actually in the rules somewhere?

This isn't D&D, they're not going to spell out each and every possible maneuver. The rules simply state that to defend in melee combat you can "parry" using a relevant weapon using Weapon Skill + Agility, "block" if you're going unarmed with Unarmed + Agility, or Dodge with Dodge + Agility in any case. If the GM buys that you are going to "block" using unarmed with your hands full, then it applies. It's not houserule, it's simply GM's say. SR after all has a lot more situational penalties, yeses and nos and the like than D&D ever had. +2 circumstance bonuses need not apply (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

"I'm sorry, you're carrying the unconscious body of the extractee in a fireman's carry. You're not gonna be able to use "block""

[CanRay]

You could block the blow with the extractee.

[Seth]

I tend to treat movement that happens over the round.

Typically the GMs mooks have 1 IP, sometimes 2, so the rules around misbalance of IPs tend to come up a lot.

The way we treat it is pretty simple: there is a 3 second combat round. In that time you can move your full movement. IPs are spread evenly through this time, but you can hold one actions.

Examples you have 30 metres of movement.

• You have three IPs are a melee character and want to hit someone 30 metres away. You waste the first and second, hold the third. At the end you get to use your last IP
• You have three IPs are a melee character and want to hit someone 20 metres away. You waste the first, hold the second, use the second when you connect, and use the third normally.

We rarely have to treat it as mechanically as that but those are the underpinning rules. I don't know if its RAW, but it gives believable results


On the topic of invisibility, we too have the (inherited from D&D view that invisibility breaks when you act). Occasionally we have improved invisibility in the hands of the NPCs. For this we adopt a -6 to attack and defence rolls (if you know they are their or are in combat, and visibility modifiers seem sensible). However if the attacker is making a lot of noise, attacking etc, we often drop that to -4.

We rarely find invisibility to be much of a combat advantage in the game: Astral perception, motion detectors, ultrasound, Grenades and supressive fire work fine against invisible people. As does grappling (it might be a house rule, but once you are grappling we rule that invisibility is worthless. If you doubt that try closing your eyes in a grapple and see that it makes almost no difference).

We also don't find it much of an advantage in scouting: motion sensors, heat sensors, millimetre radar, ultrasound, pressure pads, olfactory sensors cost you a few thousand nuyen to put in place: less than 1 or 2 weeks staffing costs for guards. In really sensitive areas, the bad (and good) guys have bead curtains (often mana sensitive). Cameras watching the curtains make it really easy to spot invisible people. Watchers are cheap and readily available, and they see straight through invisibility. Watchers are easy to avoid if you can see them and/or have a spirit with concealment. Elementals and other big spirits less so easy to avoid, but rarely deployed in large numbers (they are really! expensive to keep in place long term). So far we haven't had many encounters with patrolling astral mages (who also see straight through invisibility), so I cannot really comment on how to avoid them.

This means 2070 security has to be defeated in different ways to D&D security. So if you have a hacker controlling their system, and a friendly spirit providing concealment, most of these are your friends, and its usually straightforward to avoid the bad guys. If you don't, then probably you are going to get spotted.

[shazar]

I tend to treat movement that happens over the round.

Typically the GMs mooks have 1 IP, sometimes 2, so the rules around misbalance of IPs tend to come up a lot.

The way we treat it is pretty simple: there is a 3 second combat round. In that time you can move your full movement. IPs are spread evenly through this time, but you can hold one actions.

Examples you have 30 metres of movement.

• You have three IPs are a melee character and want to hit someone 30 metres away. You waste the first and second, hold the third. At the end you get to use your last IP
• You have three IPs are a melee character and want to hit someone 20 metres away. You waste the first, hold the second, use the second when you connect, and use the third normally.

I can see that, but what if someone has 1 IP and they want to attack the person 30 meters away. Do they start running at 10 meters per IP holding their original IPs action until reaching the target at IP 3?

[Makki]

This isn't D&D, they're not going to spell out each and every possible maneuver. The rules simply state that to defend in melee combat you can "parry" using a relevant weapon using Weapon Skill + Agility, "block" if you're going unarmed with Unarmed + Agility, or Dodge with Dodge + Agility in any case. If the GM buys that you are going to "block" using unarmed with your hands full, then it applies. It's not houserule, it's simply GM's say. SR after all has a lot more situational penalties, yeses and nos and the like than D&D ever had. +2 circumstance bonuses need not apply (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

"I'm sorry, you're carrying the unconscious body of the extractee in a fireman's carry. You're not gonna be able to use "block""

change Agility to Reaction (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
With my hands full, I can still use lower arm, upper arm and any part of my too legs. there's no rule preventing me catching the incoming sword with my teeth either. as long as I don't dodge or use a weapon, I block with reaction + unarmed


for movement, we houserule, that one needn't divide his 10/25 meters by his IPs, but he may not move more than 10/25 meters/combat turn in total. One may e.g. move 20m in the first turn, 5 in the 2nd and can't move any further in the 3rd turn.

[ProfGast]

change Agility to Reaction (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oops. That's what I get for typing something right after I wake up.

[Seth]

I can see that, but what if someone has 1 IP and they want to attack the person 30 meters away. Do they start running at 10 meters per IP holding their original IPs action until reaching the target at IP 3?

The way we play it (and I think its RAW) is that you can only have 1 held action. So basically if they are 30 metres away, they run over the combat round, and at the end of the combat round they take their held action. Its actually pretty simple. I also wouldn't worry about it, melee characters who are a long way away from a shooter are going to get toasted anyway you look at. For example if they are 30 metres away, and the shooter has 3 IPs, they will probably get 6 shots off. Mostly if that happens its time to say goodbye to the melee character

"Those who live by the sword will be killed by those who use a gun"