[SR4] How do magic things really work? Options

[Machiavelli]

Just some things that came to my mind and do you have experienced something like this too?

- Concealment: great thing if you are hiding from something. Unfortunately i lack the skills shadowing and infiltration, have agility at 2 (better don´t roll) so nobody had to roll the dice to see me.

- Guard: what does it really do? I have never been attacked with the Accident power and only use it for the fluff to be protected by sunburn on a hot day.

- Detection spells: did you read the description of "detect life" in the core book? I would have never thought that the spell can do something like that. What can other spells possibly do we don´t know?

- Earth elementals: everybody is telling me "he can dig a hole", but for christs-sake how without a shovel? He has no corresponding power.

- Fire elementals: i often hear that they are great in combat, but in which one? An average spirit in our game is force 5, sometimes force 6 if you really roll good. This means 10-12 dice for elemental attack or close combat. Nothing a proper street sam can´t do better and in comparison with the sam, his both attacks are complex-actions...
As if things wouldn´t be already bad enough, he has a massive reduction in strenght...i don´t see a combat monster here.

[Makki]

Just some things that came to my mind and do you have experienced something like this too?

- Concealment: great thing if you are hiding from something. Unfortunately i lack the skills shadowing and infiltration, have agility at 2 (better don´t roll) so nobody had to roll the dice to see me.

if they have Perception 1 and Int 4 with no technical adds and you're concealed by F5, they have no dice to see you, because you're too blurry.

- Guard: what does it really do? I have never been attacked with the Accident power and only use it for the fluff to be protected by sunburn on a hot day.

it prevents you from glitching. so you can indeed roll your Agi2-1 infiltration

- Earth elementals: everybody is telling me "he can dig a hole", but for christs-sake how without a shovel? He has no corresponding power.

depending on tradition he might take the form of a mole ^^

- Fire elementals: i often hear that they are great in combat, but in which one? An average spirit in our game is force 5, sometimes force 6 if you really roll good. This means 10-12 dice for elemental attack or close combat. Nothing a proper street sam can´t do better and in comparison with the sam, his both attacks are complex-actions...
As if things wouldn´t be already bad enough, he has a massive reduction in strenght...i don´t see a combat monster here.

don't like Fire either. but elemental damage is always awesome. 5DV + net hits fire damage are great

[Mardrax]

Just some things that came to my mind and do you have experienced something like this too?

- Concealment: great thing if you are hiding from something. Unfortunately i lack the skills shadowing and infiltration, have agility at 2 (better don´t roll) so nobody had to roll the dice to see me.

The spirit would gladly HELP you conceal, you just need to put in some effort. It's not invisibility.

- Guard: what does it really do? I have never been attacked with the Accident power and only use it for the fluff to be protected by sunburn on a hot day.

Guard prevents glitches.

- Detection spells: did you read the description of "detect life" in the core book? I would have never thought that the spell can do something like that. What can other spells possibly do we don´t know?

Not sure of your question here.

- Earth elementals: everybody is telling me "he can dig a hole", but for christs-sake how without a shovel? He has no corresponding power.

It has a bunch of strength. It can attack barriers like any other entity. The ground is a barrier.

- Fire elementals: i often hear that they are great in combat, but in which one? An average spirit in our game is force 5, sometimes force 6 if you really roll good. This means 10-12 dice for elemental attack or close combat. Nothing a proper street sam can´t do better and in comparison with the sam, his both attacks are complex-actions...

An F5 fire spirit is rolling 7+5=12 dice to hit with both Elemental Attack, which is ranged, or unarmed combat. It does 5 base DV with Elemental Attack, which equates it to the worth of a very skilled gunman with an SS pistol. It does (3/2)+5(due to Elemental Aura)=7 base DV in unarmed, which equates it to a normal unarmed attack of S 14. The fire spirit does fire damage, however, which means it's only resisted with half Impact armour, and can set things on fire. The spirit also has 10 points of hardened armour, making it immune to most mooks attacking it.
And you do know it can keep up to M number of subjects Engulfed as well? While just dematerialising after having Engulfed someone? Beinf pinned, forced to make opposed Str+Bod rolls against 11 dice, while likely taking damage every turn tends to be painful indeed.
Also note that attacking them in melee hurts.
And the spirit can always Confuse someone in 1 on 1, before doing anything else. Penalties hurt.

A fire spirit is a tough adversary. So is a "proper" street sam. They are both dangerous in combat.

[Mardrax]

if they have Perception 1 and Int 4 with no technical adds and you're concealed by F5, they have no dice to see you, because you're too blurry.

it prevents you from glitching. so you can indeed roll your Agi2-1 infiltration

depending on tradition he might take the form of a mole ^^

don't like Fire either. but elemental damage is always awesome. 5DV + net hits fire damage are great

There's a case to be made for both points of Concealment.

Keep in mind that the form a spirit takes has no bearing whatsoever on its capabilities. An F5 earth elemental can materialise as a turd and still have 9 Strength.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just some things that came to my mind and do you have experienced something like this too?
- Fire elementals: i often hear that they are great in combat, but in which one? An average spirit in our game is force 5, sometimes force 6 if you really roll good. This means 10-12 dice for elemental attack or close combat. Nothing a proper street sam can´t do better and in comparison with the sam, his both attacks are complex-actions...
As if things wouldn´t be already bad enough, he has a massive reduction in strenght...i don´t see a combat monster here.

Spirits are a force multiplier (much like Drones and Agents can be) in combat. They add a rather dangerous antagonist into the mix, and if he is on your side, then you may have an advantage... WoUldn't you double your Street Sam Potential if you could? With Fire Spirits (or any spirit really) you can...

[TheOOB]

Concealment is very powerful, but not game stopping, even if paired with chameleon suits. Sometime a better way to handle perception for small groups of people is to take the highest perception roll, and add 1 for each additional person, which allows a roll to be even made.

Guard can also, protect you from drowing, normal fire, an avalanche, smoke inhalation, exposure from the cold, quicksand, high winds on a narrow ledge, slipping on ice, ect. Any naturally occurring hazard that is within the spirits purview can be protected against. Plus, guarding against glitches when making risking tests is always nice. Guard is pretty much a spirits generic ability to protect you.

Earth spirits are super strong, and their bodies would often take a form appropriate for digging. Getting something stronger then a troll to do things is nice.

Fire spirits start with elemental blast and engulf, both very very good combat powers. They are dangerous to use weapon foci/attacks of will on (energy aura), and have pretty good combat stats. In addition, they can learn other good combat powers too, such as fear and noxious breath. An added bonus, fire spirits are combat aligned in many traditions, which means they help with combat spells, and as a flavor thing they are more willing to fight well.

[CanRay]

Well, Magic works as if it were Magic.

Does this surprise anyone else?

[Irion]

How do magic things really work?

Good, thanks you for asking.

The spirit also has 10 points of hardened armour, making it immune to most mooks attacking it.

As a matter of fact, fire spirts do also get a reaction of Force+3, as far as I know.
This means a reaction of 8 for a Force 5 spirit.
It is really not easy to hurt a fire spirit. Most likely with a wide burst of armor piercing amunition. But this tends to be expensive.

[braincraft]

[img]http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/046/123/original/magnets.jpg?1270937748[/img]

[TheOOB]

Good, thanks you for asking.


As a matter of fact, fire spirts do also get a reaction of Force+3, as far as I know.
This means a reaction of 8 for a Force 5 spirit.
It is really not easy to hurt a fire spirit. Most likely with a wide burst of armor piercing amunition. But this tends to be expensive.

Stick-n-Shock! Through a bizarre rules loophole, ammunition that is designed to stun metahumans is extra effective against beings with no central nervous system to stun! No seriously, -half armor is amazing.

But yes, fire spirits are amazing in combat, only beast and guardian spirits can contend well with them for title of "best", though do not underestimate air spirits, with their high agility their elemental attack optional power can be quite nasty(especially if your GM allows you to pick which energy type you want).

[Irion]

@TheOOB
Well, electricity is well fitting for Air.

Stick-n-Shock! Through a bizarre rules loophole, ammunition that is designed to stun metahumans is extra effective against beings with no central nervous system to stun! No seriously, -half armor is amazing.

Yes, but it is also expensiv.
But yes, the force 5 spirit goes down. Would need a force 7 spirit to shrug it off. (But since it is quite easy to summon one...)

[Machiavelli]

Easy? Do you summon different than i do? We are talking about 12 to 7 dices here. Goes wrong every 3rd time i try it and not to mention the possible drain and we are talking about physical drain here.

[braincraft]

@TheOOB
Well, electricity is well fitting for Air

Or Blast, perhaps. High-force spirits should be able to knock down pretty much anything.

Easy? Do you summon different than i do? We are talking about 12 to 7 dices here. Goes wrong every 3rd time i try it and not to mention the possible drain and we are talking about physical drain here.

An initiation or two, Centering, and an extra magic point should let you safely summon F7 spirits, especially if your totem gives you bonuses to that type.

[Irion]

@Machiavelli
Edge is the way to go.
And in any case it is 7 dices against 5+4+totem+foci.
So at least 7 against 9.
Well, tricky. But but edge of 4 to 6 in the pot and drive it home save.
A force 7 spirit is kicking serious ass. (If it is a guardian spirit you can cut out stunbolt too.)

[Machiavelli]

Yeah, edge is definitely one way to go. Like with all the other attributes, it is a pity that i didn´t rose it at chargen to softmax...damn, but too late.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Machiavelli
Edge is the way to go.
And in any case it is 7 dices against 5+4+totem+foci.
So at least 7 against 9.
Well, tricky. But but edge of 4 to 6 in the pot and drive it home save.
A force 7 spirit is kicking serious ass. (If it is a guardian spirit you can cut out stunbolt too.)

Never forget that the SPirit can also spend edge to resist Summonings and Bindings, at the GM's Discretion... Force 7+ Spirits should be rare in game in my opinion...

[braincraft]

Never forget that the SPirit can also spend edge to resist Summonings and Bindings, at the GM's Discretion... Force 7+ Spirits should be rare in game in my opinion...

Since spirit Edge is equal to their Force, that just means that anything above F6 is basically unsummonable unless you get really lucky, and even trying is liable to knock you out and unleash a pissy godling.

I think there's enough hoops for summoners to jump through without all that. You don't have to worry about your damn overcast Powerballs trying to buck you during a fight.

[Mardrax]

They shouldn't unless given sufficient reason though.
Also, I generally wouldn't use Edge on summoning/binding, but rather on drain resistance. Getting services from the spirit I could care less about, if I don't get to live to enjoy it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Since spirit Edge is equal to their Force, that just means that anything above F6 is basically unsummonable unless you get really lucky, and even trying is liable to knock you out and unleash a pissy godling.

I think there's enough hoops for summoners to jump through without all that. You don't have to worry about your damn overcast Powerballs trying to buck you during a fight.

Why would they be unsummonable? It would just be suicidally dangerous... You can only spend one Edge to resist after all, not coninuous expenditures. But here is the Problem... at Force 7, they are now rolling 14 Dice (Exploding 6's), which gets deadly real quick.

In our games, Spirits at Force 4+ spend edge to resist Summoning and Binding. Tends to cut down on Uber-powered Spirits being summoned willy nilly all over the place. At that point, the summoning of a High Force spirit is something that is exceptional, rather than commonplace. (One of our Mages characters succeeded in summoning a Force 7 Spirit while running on a Zero Zone, it was an epic occurrence, and was appropriate). By the same token, Spirits that are commonly considered "Safe" have some element of danger added to them. Same Mage summoned a Force 5 Spirit that inflicted 20 DV of drain once... Also an epic event, as the Spirit essentially Kicked his can all over the place for the insult. Led to some pretty interesting role-playing and campaign development afterwards. And it is still talked about to this day.

Of course, not everyone agrees with this, but we like it a lot, as it tends to reinforce the rarity (in canon anyways) of high force spirits, as they have always been plot elements rather than common tools available to everyone. Your mileage may vary, of course... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mardrax]

A magician with 6 or 7 Magic can barely be described as "everyone".
That said, I like the rule. I'd probably implement it if F>M though. The spirit acknowledging an equal has some flavour to it.

...And he actually survived 20 DV of drain? Epic indeed. Did he burn Edge to do so?

[CanRay]

Don't forget, a person with a Magic of 1 is considered a "Magician", and makes up the 1% or so of the population with magical ability.

[Mardrax]

1% of the population total. Mystic Adepts add a bit to that as well, for summoning-capable purposes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A magician with 6 or 7 Magic can barely be described as "everyone".
That said, I like the rule. I'd probably implement it if F>M though. The spirit acknowledging an equal has some flavour to it.

...And he actually survived 20 DV of drain? Epic indeed. Did he burn Edge to do so?

No, he did not "Burn" the Edge, But he did Spend it... reduced the damage to only 11 Boxes, which kept him conscious at least (it was all Stun after all)...

We considered the Idea of F?M for the level at which the Spirit Spends Edge, but it still generated Spirits that are way to powerful, at least to our miunds. The way that the characters, in world, deal with that is to "Placate the Spirits." Through Skill Use (Knowledge Skill for such things), the Character can attempt to placate a Spirit to attempt to keep it from spending the Edge (not a requirement by any means, of course). Has A Threshold set by the GM dependant upon how powerful the spirit being summoned will be.

Has led to a lot of really cool roleplaying, though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[TheOOB]

I'm pretty sure 1% of the population is awakened, and I'm sure a significant percentage of those are adepts. Spirits up to force 6 can be dealt with using conventional tactics, stick and shock, apds rounds, trollbows, ect. Once you start getting to force 7+, the need to have an awakened person to deal with the spirits grows...but is that a problem? A force 7 spirit is unusual, only an initiate with high magic can summon one safely, and even then they are looking at an average of 4.66 drain, with a max of 14!, and binding it is even more dangerous, spirits help you if you mistreat spirits and it decides to use edge to resist your summons.

Magicians that powerful just don't pop out of nowhere, their existence will be publically known, or at least discerned through a little legwork. And if your running team doesn't have an awakened member...don't run against places with that level of magical security...and if your team has a mage that good, you're likely to get jobs running agienst places with good magical security, meaning your spirits are likely to be countered. Even a magic 3 magician can reak havoc with a simple mana static spell.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm pretty sure 1% of the population is awakened, and I'm sure a significant percentage of those are adepts. Spirits up to force 6 can be dealt with using conventional tactics, stick and shock, apds rounds, trollbows, ect. Once you start getting to force 7+, the need to have an awakened person to deal with the spirits grows...but is that a problem? A force 7 spirit is unusual, only an initiate with high magic can summon one safely, and even then they are looking at an average of 4.66 drain, with a max of 14!, and binding it is even more dangerous, spirits help you if you mistreat spirits and it decides to use edge to resist your summons.

Magicians that powerful just don't pop out of nowhere, their existence will be publically known, or at least discerned through a little legwork. And if your running team doesn't have an awakened member...don't run against places with that level of magical security...and if your team has a mage that good, you're likely to get jobs running agienst places with good magical security, meaning your spirits are likely to be countered. Even a magic 3 magician can reak havoc with a simple mana static spell.

The Problem is that, By the RAW, Spirits of 7+ are not all that rare unless the GM takes steps to make them so. A Properly configured Conjurer can summon Spirits of up to Force 10 with ease (though the Drain is sometimes a problem, but not on average). The Fuff and the Mechanics, at that point, do not match. Which is why there are so many opinions on how to limit spritis to something less than Uber-Powerful.