Shadow's Dawn: Diving into the past, Pre recruitment: Feedback on idea appreciated Options

[Ol' Scratch]

Ah, okay, thanks for clarifying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[BlackHat]

I believe Seth's houserule limits only Edge out of the Special Attributes to the 1==>7, 2==>8, etc. limits. He doesn't mention Magic in that discussion.

I was going by this:

Your natural maximum for attributes is your force, which is capped to 6 + initiation level, and is also capped to 5 + minimum physical or mental attribute.

For a spirit, force = magic. So in order to have a magic of 10, all of your physical and mental attributes need to be at least 5. Since they start at 2, this will cost 30 * 8 = 240 BP just to raise the physical and mental attributes. However, I am pretty sure there is a rule (which Seth might be okay if someone ignores) that prevents you from spending more than half of your BP on attributes.

Even if you can ignore it, it's probably prohibitively expensive to make a magic 10 free spirit (you're looking at 335 BP just to get your magic to 10 and probably another 70-95 raising your edge up to have the spirit powers to make use of it). My point was just that a elven mage could raise his magic to 10 for something like 105 BP, and ignore as many of his attributes as he likes.

[Seth]

Dunno if these observations will help anyone, but I noticed that as a spirit, attempting to get force/magic/edge as high as possible, you end up having to build all of your attributes up to 4 (by the design of the houserule), which makes you much more like a force-4 spirit than a force-9 spirit. Compared to the stock spirits in the BBB, your manifested form is actually a bit worse than a force-4, because their manifested physical attributes are usually a few points higher than their force. You could easily have most of the spirit powers you might want, of course, but if you have to throw down in astral combat, you're basically a force-4 spirit. Some of your powers will key off of your ridiculously high force/magic/edge, but for a lot of rolls you'll only be chucking 5-9 dice. I also noticed you can't actually become force-10, because raising all of your other attributes to 5 would cost more than half of your points (and you can't put more than half into attributes). Not that that is a huge deal-breaker, but it seemed strange that a non-spirit is welcome to have magic 10 and everything else a 2, but a spirit isn't allowed to do the same thing. My conclusion was that after dumping almost all of the BP into raising magic/edge/attributes, you end up as basically a force-4 spirit, who will probably be force-2 in the past.

Magic/force is not restricted by the other attributes (as was pointed out by someone else later), so you can start at 10 easy. If you start at 10, and are in the past in a background count of -7, and you have the funky spirit power I mentioned earlier, you will have force 4. A force 4 spirit with immunity to normal weapons 8 and the ability to cast force 4 spells will be extremely potent in the dark ages.

Another thing I noticed when considering a mage, is that although you could easily have Magic 10, you wouldn't be unable to resist much more drain than usual. (Although being a grade 4 initiate with centering obviously helps). You might be able to spare the bonus points to max out your two resisting attributes, and pick focused concentration 2, but you're still talking about 16 dice (so 4-5 hits on average). So although you could cast force 10 spells, or summon force-10 great form spirits, and would have a lot of dice for the actual spellcasting roll (so you'd generate a lot of hits, and do something impressive), you'd probably knock yourself out with a couple of spells unless you reigned the force of your spells back down to something much more mediocre (like force 5). You still end up a good deal awesomer than a normal mage (getting 5 hits when a starting PC might get 3), but you are forced to act at a fraction of your true potential power.

With centering initiation grade adds to drain die. As an elf (which this game is designed around) you can start with 7 charisma, 5 willpower easily, 4 grades of initiation gives 16 soak die. Remember that as initiates you can get metamatic foci (including centering foci... admittedly only force 1 or 2) which can add a little more to your soak. Using bioware / genetics / martial arts you can get another 4 points. If you were minimaxing this gives around 22 soak die. Even if you don't minimax you can easily start with 16.

With only 16 die, using the 4:1 rule, you can throw force 11 stunbolts or force 7 stunballs all day/every day. With soak 20+ you are throwing force 13 stunbolts, force 9 stunballs.

As far as spell casting goes, with magic 9, spell casting 6, foci 2..4, mentor spirit and specialisation, you are throwing around 15..23 die in your spell casting.

Don't forget that once you have taken stun you can use first aid to soak it.

I'll point out the design of the soak mechanism is a shadowrun core rule, which I think is pretty reasonable.

[pbangarth]

I was going by this:

Ah, OK. I have to change a couple of things. I had Force at 9 but a few physicals at 3. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Sephiroth]

If you are still willing to take me, I think I will start working up an IE in the next few days.

Question- am I allowed to start with a stacked weapon&power focus?

[Seth]

If you are still willing to take me, I think I will start working up an IE in the next few days.

Love to have you along.

Question- am I allowed to start with a stacked weapon&power focus?

As long as you could bye the foci separately with the normal availability rules, absolutely.
Example (assuming you have no enchanting skills):
Weapon foci 2, Power foci 2. No problem. Same cost and bp binding cost as the 2 separately
Weapon foci 2, Power foci 4. Needs one level of restricted gear. Same cost and bp binding cost as the 2 separately
Weapon foci 4, Power foci 4. Needs two levels of restricted gear. Same cost and bp binding cost as the 2 separately

[BlackHat]

Magic/force is not restricted by the other attributes (as was pointed out by someone else later), so you can start at 10 easy. If you start at 10, and are in the past in a background count of -7, and you have the funky spirit power I mentioned earlier, you will have force 4. A force 4 spirit with immunity to normal weapons 8 and the ability to cast force 4 spells will be extremely potent in the dark ages.

Ah, that must have changed part way through and I was still going by what was in the first post. Being able to raise magic without raising EVERYTHING else certainly helps.

With only 16 die, using the 4:1 rule, you can throw force 11 stunbolts or force 7 stunballs all day/every day. With soak 20+ you are throwing force 13 stunbolts, force 9 stunballs.

Sure. 16 dice was what I was basing my numbers on, but I wasn't looking at stun spells (which have really low drain). The part that really got me was summoning, because you can't really plan your drain in advance. Attempting to summon a force 10 spirit could land you with some serious drain, or none at all. You'd probably end up sticking to lower force spells. Same goes for lightning bolts or fireballs, but then it is because of the large drain values.

I think the rules are fine, it was just an observation about how having a 10 magic doesn't really mean you're whipping around force-10 magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Seth]

Attempting to summon a force 10 spirit could land you with some serious drain, or none at all

Yes: Trying to soak 20 points of stun can leave you with a nasty headache, some broken bones, unconsiousness and very cross free spirit. Only for the insanely brave.

[Seth]

Aas a Free Spirit, he gets Edge rather than Initiate Grade.

I'm very sorry but you get initiation grade, unless you buy the meta magic as a spirit power. The list of metamagics that can be spirit powers are in the runners companion. We've had this chat on other posts, and just disagree on this point. I know this damages your image of your character (going from 9 extra soak die to 4 extra soak die is unpleasant) so if you want you can buy them as spirit powers, but it costs 1.5 spirit points to buy them as spirit powers (based on the fact that the spirit power masking costs 3 points and is effectively 2 powers: masking and advanced masking).

[pbangarth]

I'm very sorry but you get initiation grade, unless you buy the meta magic as a spirit power. The list of metamagics that can be spirit powers are in the runners companion. We've had this chat on other posts, and just disagree on this point. I know this damages your image of your character (going from 9 extra soak die to 4 extra soak die is unpleasant) so if you want you can buy them as spirit powers, but it costs 1.5 spirit points to buy them as spirit powers (based on the fact that the spirit power masking costs 3 points and is effectively 2 powers: masking and advanced masking).

No problem. Your game. Just good to find out now!

[Ol' Scratch]

In opposition to the gaining a power point or magic point in place of a metamagic, is there a way you'd allow us to pick up an additional metamagic? The rules allow you to purchase an additional one for each grade you possess, but it's Karma based rather than BP.

[BlackHat]

Given the number of voices agreeing, I am going to wimp out and give every one 20 karma as well. This allows people to get quite a few specialisations and stuff that are much cheaper with karma than bp, and lets them buy a few low level skills at 1 or a few spells. This should add a couple of die to peoples die pools.

You could put some of these 20 Karma towards it (not sure how much it costs, though).

[Ol' Scratch]

Oh, crap, how'd I miss that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Thanks!

[Ol' Scratch]

Because I obviously have trouble keeping track of everything, I've tried to compile a list of the character creation guidelines being used. Could you guys look it over and see if I missed anything important?

• General: Unless otherwise stated, the standard character creation rules are to be used except as noted below:
• Build Points: Everyone has 450 Build Points and 20 bonus Karma to spend. You are not required to use all of the Karma during character creation, and may save it for future use instead.
• Knowledge Skills: Instead of the normal allotment, you gain (Logic + Intuition)x10 Knowledge Skill points. Build Points can be spent to gain even more as per the standard rules. You also gain General History as a free Knowledge Skill at a rank equal to your Logic attribute. Other history-based skills are highly advised.
• Contacts: You gain (Charisma)x4 points to use on Contacts. Build Points can be used to purchase additional points.
• Relationships/Factions: You gain (Charisma)x2 points that you can use to bolster your relationships with various immortal factions. Negative values are permissible as appropriate.
• Wealth: You start with (Willpower)x10,000 nuyen in addition to any other resources you purchase normally.
• Availabilties & Gear: If you have access to an appropriate skill or ability to explain how you created or obtained the item, you can exceed the normal limit of Availability 12 on a case-by-case basis.
• Initiation: Everyone begins as a Grade 4 Initiate, but you must purchase your Magic attribute from 1 as normal. You may also be completely mundane if you so choose, gaining +50 Build Points in compensation. Technomancers may instead submerge four times.
• Metamagic: Everyone starts with 3 metamagic techniques plus Masking. You may exchange a metamagic technique for either one additional Power Point or Magic point, for a maximum of +3 of either.

I'm not including the subrules for specific races, as I think everyone knows what's available in that regard, and I didn't include the various house rules in the original post either. But other than that, does this look right?

[Seth]

Yes it looks right. Thanks for clarifying. I have tried to keep the initial post up to date, but I may have slipped

[Ol' Scratch]

Came across another question.

Is the only power we have from our immortality "Immunity to Age," or do we have the full suite of the other immortals, which includes an Immunity to Pathogens, Poisons, and Diseases as well?

[Seth]

Is the only power we have from our immortality "Immunity to Age," or do we have the full sweet of the other immortals, which includes an Immunity to Pathogens, Poisons, and Diseases as well?

You don't get ill very often (only military grade virus's will attack you, and while you may get sick, you probably won't die: even from Ebola).You think you might be immune to HMHVV, but you would like not to put it to the test. You know you are affected by poisons, but again you are unlikely to die from them. The infected are basically dead which is why they are immune. You are fairly sure the other immortal elves are a bit vulnerable to poison. You are still alive so you are still a bit affected. The game mechanics for that (if it becomes relevant are up to me) but you know that you are pretty resilient to those kind of things, while not fully immune.

[Ol' Scratch]

Thanks again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

Mandala doesn't recall ever being sick.

[Seth]

Recruitment thread now open. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34394.

Please post your character idea, and maintain a copy of character in the first post.

Note that I have changed the creation rules again (to your benefit), please read the character creation spoiler (the rest is cut and paste from here).

I suggest that we close this thread, and move to the recruitment thread

[Ol' Scratch]

Holy smokes, some of the new changes really helped a lot. Thanks man!

[Ol' Scratch]

So, has anyone come up with any ideas for our group's name?

It's pretty tough. We have a very diverse group here, with everyone going a different route with their magical stylings (which I think is fantastic). I think something that captures that feeling is important, as is something that speaks of the eternal bond we've had through the ages and how we've recreated our own images through those different eras.

When I think of those things, the only thing that comes to mind is the Ouroboros. The Phoenix captures some of those concepts as well, and I seem to recall them existing in Earthdawn under another name (I don't have my books with me to check). So that's certainly another possible idea to run with.

Do you guys have any ideas?

[Aria]

Or something innocuous like the Grey Order (Bab5 esque)?

Such a disparate group working to further the aims of all immortals? Probably stopping the horrors?!?

[Ol' Scratch]

Those are pretty good ideas, too. I wonder if we've had a running theme that's persisted through all those millenia? Like maybe hunting remnants of some specific horror down, or collecting artifacts that could make or break the next invasion? I dunno. So many options...

[sabs]

Well, We're clearly an Adventuring group, originally.
I was planning on being from Throal specifially, but we don't have to be Barsaivian if others have ideas. We created a group pattern and bound to it. That means we were well established.

What if we used to he known as Ivan's Marauders. But these days, we just go by the name "The Ivans".
Ivan IronTusk was our Leader, a Troll Warrior who put us together originally. He died in one of our final Horror conflicts of the 4th Age, or perhaps against Thera. Depends what people like.