Magic fingers and unarmed combat Options

[Seth]

So the magic fingers spell says that you can use any skill (although with -2 die). You can even fight with it.

So what about mystic adepts?

If I have the adept power critical strike, which affects unarmed combat (and distance strike) does it work with magic fingers.

I'm tempted to say yes, but I wonder what the rest of you think

[Thanee]

Good question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Aerospider]

I'd say absolutely not. SR magic effects don't combine merely on conceptual grounds – knowing a direct combat fire spell and a direct combat water spell doesn't give you the napalm spell for free, you have to learn it separately or multi-cast the two together and hope the GM doesn't make them cancel out to some degree ("Anyone fancy a steam room?").

Adept powers are about the adept's magical control of his own body. The magic fingers spell is remote-controlling spiritual hands that exist entirely independently of the caster's own hands. They don't have a physical form and I don't think (AFB) that the caster even has to mimic the actions he wants the hands to take. I'm fairly sure that allowing this notion would open the game up to a wide range of new conceptual abuses as the rigid integrity of the magic system (such as it is) starts to collapse. For starters, what if the adept was remote-controlling (not even jumped into) a drone with arms, could he use the power then? Why not since these hands are in his control and more akin to his own than the magic fingers are (what with being physical and all)?

The improved ability power could help because the bonus is applied to the skill and the skill is applied to the task, but the critical strike power is applied to the adept's physical hands (or whole body if you want to include kicks etc.) and these hands are not applied to the task.

[Makki]

i just had a thought, about strangling someone Vader-style. How can someone even defend against invisible hands?

[Mardrax]

No.
You basically summon up a pair of hands, which fight like "real hands", not like "your hands".
This would in my book constitute using a weapon, so fall out of the purview of unarmed combat. (while of course not out of the purview of Unarmed Combat)

i just had a thought, about strangling someone Vader-style. How can someone even defend against invisible hands?

One can dodge, parry and block like normal, since it's still melee combat. Being surprised would come into it often though.

[Makki]

one can dodge, parry and block like normal, since it's still melee combat. Being surprised would come into it often though.

I just reread it. It actually says "Invisible Hands". So the defender will always be surprised (apart from dual natured) and gets a -6 modifier on the subsequent defense tests.
kinda fun, making a F5 magic fingers subdual attack. called shot to the neck (- armor). and make Str stun damage every round. it's like stunbolts, but more fun and less people cry "imba direct combat spells"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So the magic fingers spell says that you can use any skill (although with -2 die). You can even fight with it.

So what about mystic adepts?

If I have the adept power critical strike, which affects unarmed combat (and distance strike) does it work with magic fingers.

I'm tempted to say yes, but I wonder what the rest of you think

Actually, That is what the Adept Ability: Distance Strike is for... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Inncubi]

I am AFB, and with full ignorance, beyond what I read in the large flaming war thread regarding hardliner gloves and adept abilities.

Now, I think is a potential can of worms. I understand any GM objections to the use of the spell and some adept abilities and the conceptual objections.

Now, I want to make this question as logically strict, and as syllogistic as possible to try to receive as simple an answer by RAW (please support with quotes, if willing and possible) as possible and reduce the worms coming out of the I see can that is being opened.

Answers may certainly attack the premises, since that would invalidate the argument. Again, this is not a balance question, simply a conceptual clarification for me.

Use of magic fingers and critical strike.
1) Magic Fingers allows the use of unarmed combat skill.
2) Critical strike augments damage of unarmed combat skill.
---> Critical Strike augments Magic Fingers damage (if its used for the unarmed combat skill).

As a second point, can it be done with killing hands? Same form of argument.
Complete with other unarmed combat enhancements from adept powers.

How about other skills? If the adept has bought the Blades skill enhancement as a power, extra dice are added if he wields his weapon with the spell? And how about weapon foci, are they usable?

Analogize the syllogism I made earlier for these questions as well.

Thanks in advance.

P.D: I reread the post and now it seems more like an exam than a Dumpshock post. Sorry people.

[Makki]

I have to agree with Inncubi, sadly. I don't think it's RAI, but RAW.
I think the best synergy for Magic Fingers is Analyze Device and/or Clairvoyance. You can use keypads on the other side of the door, or maybe even bypass a maglock.
some detection spell sustaining foci might come in handy

[Neraph]

Use of magic fingers and critical strike.
1) Magic Fingers allows the use of unarmed combat skill.
2) Critical strike augments damage of unarmed combat skill.
---> Critical Strike augments Magic Fingers damage (if its used for the unarmed combat skill).

As a second point, can it be done with killing hands? Same form of argument.
Complete with other unarmed combat enhancements from adept powers.

Correct, from a RAW standpoint.

How about other skills? If the adept has bought the Blades skill enhancement as a power, extra dice are added if he wields his weapon with the spell? And how about weapon foci, are they usable?

Actually, I don't think the foci would work, as foci specifically state that they need to be in contact with the body of the person bound to them, but the Magic Fingers spell only allows you to use your own skills.

As an aside, a spirit with the Energy Aura and Psychokinesis powers allows basically the same thing as a Mystic Adept with Magic Fingers and Critical Strike/Penetrating Strike/Killing Hands/Skill Enhancements. In fact, one could argue that a Mystic Adept fighting Unarmed through Magic Fingers would not need Killing Hands to damage something with ItNW as the hands he is using are made out of magic themselves.

[Blade]

And what if you change Magic Finger's spell range to Touch? Will you be able to punch someone with any part of your body?

[Glyph]

The problem I have with that argument is that magic fingers is not a magical extension of your natural grasp, but a telekinetic manipulation. Asking if you can get critical strike with it is like asking if you can get critical strike with stunbolt. So, no. I would give the same answer to any mage attempting to cast a touch-range spell through the magic fingers spell.

[Irion]

You are unable to apply critical strike.

Critical strike needs you to make an unarmed attack, not some telekinetic hands.

I thing the stubolt analogy is quite fitting.

[Neraph]

The problem I have with that argument is that magic fingers is not a magical extension of your natural grasp, but a telekinetic manipulation. Asking if you can get critical strike with it is like asking if you can get critical strike with stunbolt. So, no. I would give the same answer to any mage attempting to cast a touch-range spell through the magic fingers spell.

Actually, you are in error from a RAW standpoint. It's been pointed out above, but I'll reiterate for your convenience.

The caster can use skills remotely with Magic Fingers, but all tests receive a -2 dice pool modifier due to problems of fine control... The caster can fight... using the Magic Fingers as if they were real hands.

This alone doesn't do anything special. However...

This power uses magic to increase the Damage Value of your unarmed attacks, as you strike with more proficiency and power. Each level of Critical Strike increases the Damage Value in unarmed combat by +1... The use of Critical Strike must be declared with the Unarmed Combat attack.

Emphasis added.

This clearly says that all you need to do to gain the benefits of this power is declare its use when initiating an Unarmed Combat attack, which you can do through the Magic Fingers spell. The same wording concepts are used in Killing Hands, Elemental Strike, Inertia Strike, debatably Nerve Strike (one can argue "normal unarmed melee attack"), Penetrating Strike, Power Throw, and Smashing Blow. They all only require an Unarmed Combat attack or unarmed melee attack, which you can clearly do using Magic Fingers.

This is the RAW. Yours is a house rule, although it is your right as a GM to implement whatever house rule you desire.

EDIT: Your reference to Stunbolt is a straw-man argument. Nowhere in Stunbolt does it mention the capability to use melee skills or melee combat rules. You used it only to pull people away from the wording of Magic Fingers and the various adept abilities, creating not only a straw-man fallacy but a red herring one as well.

[Makki]

This is the RAW. Yours is a house rule, although it is your right as a GM to implement whatever house rule you desire.

although it's RAW, I would not dare to ask my GM if I may do that *g*

[Neraph]

I was simply pointing out the RAW - something I hope I've made a reputation for myself of doing.

[Makki]

Can we all agree, that fighting with Invisible Hands results in -6 to blocking/dodging for the defender?

[Irion]

It is as much Raw as "natural armor causes encumbrance". Actually this one goes by "it is not explictly forbidden, so it must be allowed". That is much weaker on second thought.

[Neraph]

In a game where the rules tell you what you're not allowed to do; when they are silent, you can do it.

[braincraft]

Use of magic fingers and critical strike.
1) Magic Fingers allows the use of unarmed combat skill.
2) Critical strike augments damage of unarmed combat skill.
---> Critical Strike augments Magic Fingers damage (if its used for the unarmed combat skill).

1) Specifically, the Magic Fingers spell allows the use of skills as if the magic fingers were 'real hands'. These are not specifically the caster's hands, since the spell is still usable if the spell's hits exceed the caster's Strength and Agility, or if the caster has a cyberhand, or no hands at all.
2) Specifically, the Critical Strike power increases the damage value of 'unarmed attacks' in 'unarmed combat'; the Unarmed Combat skill is not mentioned (p. 195, SR4A).

The rules as written do not particularly support your reading, and it is clear that the rules as intended (given the limitations on Distance Strike) are designed to prevent combinations of telekinesis and unarmed combat-boosting powers.

Isn't it enough to be able to overcast a pair of invisible Hulk Hands?

[Neraph]

The rules as written do not particularly support your reading, and it is clear that the rules as intended (given the limitations on Distance Strike) are designed to prevent combinations of telekinesis and unarmed combat-boosting powers.

To the first: read my reiteration. I think I did a more succinct examination of the rules. To the second: for adept abilities, sure. For spells' interactions with other abilities? No. It's magic.

[Irion]

In a game where the rules tell you what you're not allowed to do; when they are silent, you can do it.

So trolls and cows are allowed to fly?

[Ol' Scratch]

There is no rule that specifically says they can't be used together. Fortunately, both GMs and Players have this thing called a "brain" that allows them to think and interpret data. Using this ancient and mysterious organ, it's clear that they won't work together. First, you have the adept power designed for such activities (Distance Strike) saying that they don't. Then you have things like Weapon Foci and basic magic philosophy/rules in the game that states that if the adept is separated from the weapon, the magic goes kaput. Hence no ranged or thrown Weapon Foci that retain their magic when they leave an adept's physical touch. Finally, if you have to ask a question because you know in the back of your head how stupid a question it is, chances are it's actually a stupid question.

[Mardrax]

I reiterate at greater length:
"The spell creates a psychokinetic effect like "invisible hands" that can..."
"...as if they were real hands."
From the Magic Fingers spell description.

"...to increase the Damage Value of your unarmed combat attacks, as you strike with..."
From the Critical Strike power description.

Since in the case of Magic Fingers, it is the psychokinetic effect making attacks, as controlled by the caster, (this is why it has its own attributes, and use the caster's skills) applying Critical Strike to it could not ever work. Ditto for Killing Hands, which requires "participating in unarmed combat". Ditto for Elemental Strike, which not only "enhances the effects of Killing Hands" but also "wreathes the adept's hands." Penetrating Strike doesn't work because it "gives the adept's unarmed strikes a negative AP." Nerve Strike doesn't work because of requiring a "normal unarmed melee attack." Power Throw has no effect since it "adds 2 to the character's effective Strength." Smashing Blow doesn't work because it multiplies "his base DV when performing an unarmed strike."

IF you qualify it as an unarmed attack still, even though a psychokinetic effect could not technically be "unarmed":
Distance strike should work, but its effect is of course limited. Inertia Strike should work.

[Udoshi]

I'd like to point out that

The hits on the Spellcasting+Magic test become the spells effective Strength and Agility, but all tests recieve a -2 dice pool modifier due to problems of fine control

.
Thus, you have all the dice #'s necessary to figure out what you roll to attack(Agility+Unarmed) and your unarmed damage (str/2)

So trolls and cows are allowed to fly?

No, because Flight is already provided in the rules - and neither trolls nor cows have it.

The Trollbow is a good example of what Neraph meant. As in, the realization some people had that, if they pushed their strength up to 15, 16 or higher, their inexpensive bow quickly became a miniature railgun that outranged and outdamaged(or was at least comparable to) assault rifles and assalt cannons.

You know, up until they fixed it. Nobody realized how good it could get at the high end until, well, someone tried it.