So the magic fingers spell says that you can use any skill (although with -2 die). You can even fight with it.

So what about mystic adepts?

If I have the adept power critical strike, which affects unarmed combat (and distance strike) does it work with magic fingers.

I'm tempted to say yes, but I wonder what the rest of you think

Good question.

Bye
Thanee

I'd say absolutely not. SR magic effects don't combine merely on conceptual grounds – knowing a direct combat fire spell and a direct combat water spell doesn't give you the napalm spell for free, you have to learn it separately or multi-cast the two together and hope the GM doesn't make them cancel out to some degree ("Anyone fancy a steam room?").

Adept powers are about the adept's magical control of his own body. The magic fingers spell is remote-controlling spiritual hands that exist entirely independently of the caster's own hands. They don't have a physical form and I don't think (AFB) that the caster even has to mimic the actions he wants the hands to take. I'm fairly sure that allowing this notion would open the game up to a wide range of new conceptual abuses as the rigid integrity of the magic system (such as it is) starts to collapse. For starters, what if the adept was remote-controlling (not even jumped into) a drone with arms, could he use the power then? Why not since these hands are in his control and more akin to his own than the magic fingers are (what with being physical and all)?

The improved ability power could help because the bonus is applied to the skill and the skill is applied to the task, but the critical strike power is applied to the adept's physical hands (or whole body if you want to include kicks etc.) and these hands are not applied to the task.

i just had a thought, about strangling someone Vader-style. How can someone even defend against invisible hands?

No.
You basically summon up a pair of hands, which fight like "real hands", not like "your hands".
This would in my book constitute using a weapon, so fall out of the purview of unarmed combat. (while of course not out of the purview of Unarmed Combat)


One can dodge, parry and block like normal, since it's still melee combat. Being surprised would come into it often though.

I just reread it. It actually says "Invisible Hands". So the defender will always be surprised (apart from dual natured) and gets a -6 modifier on the subsequent defense tests.
kinda fun, making a F5 magic fingers subdual attack. called shot to the neck (- armor). and make Str stun damage every round. it's like stunbolts, but more fun and less people cry "imba direct combat spells"

Actually, That is what the Adept Ability: Distance Strike is for...

I am AFB, and with full ignorance, beyond what I read in the large flaming war thread regarding hardliner gloves and adept abilities.

Now, I think is a potential can of worms. I understand any GM objections to the use of the spell and some adept abilities and the conceptual objections.

Now, I want to make this question as logically strict, and as syllogistic as possible to try to receive as simple an answer by RAW (please support with quotes, if willing and possible) as possible and reduce the worms coming out of the I see can that is being opened.

Answers may certainly attack the premises, since that would invalidate the argument. Again, this is not a balance question, simply a conceptual clarification for me.

Use of magic fingers and critical strike.
1) Magic Fingers allows the use of unarmed combat skill.
2) Critical strike augments damage of unarmed combat skill.
---> Critical Strike augments Magic Fingers damage (if its used for the unarmed combat skill).

As a second point, can it be done with killing hands? Same form of argument.
Complete with other unarmed combat enhancements from adept powers.

How about other skills? If the adept has bought the Blades skill enhancement as a power, extra dice are added if he wields his weapon with the spell? And how about weapon foci, are they usable?

Analogize the syllogism I made earlier for these questions as well.

Thanks in advance.

P.D: I reread the post and now it seems more like an exam than a Dumpshock post. Sorry people.

I have to agree with Inncubi, sadly. I don't think it's RAI, but RAW.
I think the best synergy for Magic Fingers is Analyze Device and/or Clairvoyance. You can use keypads on the other side of the door, or maybe even bypass a maglock.
some detection spell sustaining foci might come in handy

Correct, from a RAW standpoint.


Actually, I don't think the foci would work, as foci specifically state that they need to be in contact with the body of the person bound to them, but the Magic Fingers spell only allows you to use your own skills.

As an aside, a spirit with the Energy Aura and Psychokinesis powers allows basically the same thing as a Mystic Adept with Magic Fingers and Critical Strike/Penetrating Strike/Killing Hands/Skill Enhancements. In fact, one could argue that a Mystic Adept fighting Unarmed through Magic Fingers would not need Killing Hands to damage something with ItNW as the hands he is using are made out of magic themselves.

And what if you change Magic Finger's spell range to Touch? Will you be able to punch someone with any part of your body?

The problem I have with that argument is that magic fingers is not a magical extension of your natural grasp, but a telekinetic manipulation. Asking if you can get critical strike with it is like asking if you can get critical strike with stunbolt. So, no. I would give the same answer to any mage attempting to cast a touch-range spell through the magic fingers spell.

You are unable to apply critical strike.

Critical strike needs you to make an unarmed attack, not some telekinetic hands.

I thing the stubolt analogy is quite fitting.

Actually, you are in error from a RAW standpoint. It's been pointed out above, but I'll reiterate for your convenience.


This alone doesn't do anything special. However...


Emphasis added.

This clearly says that all you need to do to gain the benefits of this power is declare its use when initiating an Unarmed Combat attack, which you can do through the Magic Fingers spell. The same wording concepts are used in Killing Hands, Elemental Strike, Inertia Strike, debatably Nerve Strike (one can argue "normal unarmed melee attack"), Penetrating Strike, Power Throw, and Smashing Blow. They all only require an Unarmed Combat attack or unarmed melee attack, which you can clearly do using Magic Fingers.

This is the RAW. Yours is a house rule, although it is your right as a GM to implement whatever house rule you desire.

EDIT: Your reference to Stunbolt is a straw-man argument. Nowhere in Stunbolt does it mention the capability to use melee skills or melee combat rules. You used it only to pull people away from the wording of Magic Fingers and the various adept abilities, creating not only a straw-man fallacy but a red herring one as well.

although it's RAW, I would not dare to ask my GM if I may do that *g*

I was simply pointing out the RAW - something I hope I've made a reputation for myself of doing.

Can we all agree, that fighting with Invisible Hands results in -6 to blocking/dodging for the defender?

It is as much Raw as "natural armor causes encumbrance". Actually this one goes by "it is not explictly forbidden, so it must be allowed". That is much weaker on second thought.

In a game where the rules tell you what you're not allowed to do; when they are silent, you can do it.

1) Specifically, the Magic Fingers spell allows the use of skills as if the magic fingers were 'real hands'. These are not specifically the caster's hands, since the spell is still usable if the spell's hits exceed the caster's Strength and Agility, or if the caster has a cyberhand, or no hands at all.
2) Specifically, the Critical Strike power increases the damage value of 'unarmed attacks' in 'unarmed combat'; the Unarmed Combat skill is not mentioned (p. 195, SR4A).

The rules as written do not particularly support your reading, and it is clear that the rules as intended (given the limitations on Distance Strike) are designed to prevent combinations of telekinesis and unarmed combat-boosting powers.

Isn't it enough to be able to overcast a pair of invisible Hulk Hands?

To the first: read my reiteration. I think I did a more succinct examination of the rules. To the second: for adept abilities, sure. For spells' interactions with other abilities? No. It's magic.

So trolls and cows are allowed to fly?

There is no rule that specifically says they can't be used together. Fortunately, both GMs and Players have this thing called a "brain" that allows them to think and interpret data. Using this ancient and mysterious organ, it's clear that they won't work together. First, you have the adept power designed for such activities (Distance Strike) saying that they don't. Then you have things like Weapon Foci and basic magic philosophy/rules in the game that states that if the adept is separated from the weapon, the magic goes kaput. Hence no ranged or thrown Weapon Foci that retain their magic when they leave an adept's physical touch. Finally, if you have to ask a question because you know in the back of your head how stupid a question it is, chances are it's actually a stupid question.

I reiterate at greater length:
"The spell creates a psychokinetic effect like "invisible hands" that can..."
"...as if they were real hands."
From the Magic Fingers spell description.

"...to increase the Damage Value of your unarmed combat attacks, as you strike with..."
From the Critical Strike power description.

Since in the case of Magic Fingers, it is the psychokinetic effect making attacks, as controlled by the caster, (this is why it has its own attributes, and use the caster's skills) applying Critical Strike to it could not ever work. Ditto for Killing Hands, which requires "participating in unarmed combat". Ditto for Elemental Strike, which not only "enhances the effects of Killing Hands" but also "wreathes the adept's hands." Penetrating Strike doesn't work because it "gives the adept's unarmed strikes a negative AP." Nerve Strike doesn't work because of requiring a "normal unarmed melee attack." Power Throw has no effect since it "adds 2 to the character's effective Strength." Smashing Blow doesn't work because it multiplies "his base DV when performing an unarmed strike."

IF you qualify it as an unarmed attack still, even though a psychokinetic effect could not technically be "unarmed":
Distance strike should work, but its effect is of course limited. Inertia Strike should work.

I'd like to point out that

.
Thus, you have all the dice #'s necessary to figure out what you roll to attack(Agility+Unarmed) and your unarmed damage (str/2)


No, because Flight is already provided in the rules - and neither trolls nor cows have it.

The Trollbow is a good example of what Neraph meant. As in, the realization some people had that, if they pushed their strength up to 15, 16 or higher, their inexpensive bow quickly became a miniature railgun that outranged and outdamaged(or was at least comparable to) assault rifles and assalt cannons.

You know, up until they fixed it. Nobody realized how good it could get at the high end until, well, someone tried it.

If a system doesn't take into account all possible uses for it, it should have been bugtested more, and is bugged by default.

Thanks. This is actually one of the best answers to my questions, which I repeat, came out of curiosity at the scenario proposed by the thread maker. Now, I think I'd read those same points more permissibly: I think from your same quotations, that critical strike seems ok, killing hands as well, elemental strike no, because it wreathes the character's hands explicitly, penetrating strike, yes, use of a skill is a normal attack, magic fingers allows the skill to be used in a normal way, so Nerve strike seems ok as well. Power Throw would increase the adept's strength, but since that is irrelevant for the magic fingers strength score, it wouldn't be useful, smashing seems to work as well.

And I disagree about the "technically" unarmed. Because unarmed is the purview of the skill with the same name. Hence, "psychokinetic unarmed combat" is the same as "unarmed combat" with an additional attribute that doesn't change its identity.

This is just me. Again, in the light of the answers provided.

Ol'Scratch mine were, again, questions regarding the possible compatibility of magic fingers and critical strike (and other abilities).
I know I don't allow pornomancer characters in my games, and certainly no AI, spirit, any racial deviations form the standard ones in main book or surge I, II or III ones, and those are very much legally RAW characters, so I house rule them as forbidden... As NPC's (Surge III)and PC's (All of them). The question had to do with game mechanics as written, on on whether its broken or not. I don't care about the broken part, I'll see how to rule it in my game and leave that to each GM and players to decide it. But its important for me to know the answer, so if a player comes to me with the question I can give him an answer with reasons backing it up.

And the clause "that which is not expressly forbidden is allowed" is necessary in these games. It makes running them much easier.

No, as a matter of fact, it is not. For bows the rules were written down and nobody had to assume anything. That they should have been caped or something is something different.
Here you combine rules without proper explanation.
An example would be the rules for encoumbrance and Cyberarmor.
By RAW cyber-,bio- and natural armor would count towards the encoumbrance limit.
But even this would be a strech, because magic fingers and critical strike are not connected at all. The only thing is, that you may use a skil with one the other might be used on. On the other hand it is made perfectly clear, that all the hand to hand power only work on touch and most of the adept martial art tricks too.
So you would go against RAI and stretch RAW as much as flying cows.

Pixies do not have anything quality telling you, that they can fly. There ability is only based on fluff.
So if you going to ignore any fluff contradicting the combination critical strike and magic finger, you would have to ignore all the other fluff too.
So a pixie and a troll have (considering only RAW) the some possibilitys considering flight. (Player characters, see runners companion or core book)
Since pixies are able to fly and nothing is mentioned, well everybody gets this ability.

This is a more than silly approach to any set of rules. This is like demanding the law should read like:
You are not allowed to steal any kind of fruit. You are not allowed to steal any kind of footware. It does not matter how you wear it, if you are picked up. Footware is considered everything etc...

This is just silly, because it is impossible to make rules like this.

To get back to RPGs:
If you write a rulebook you mostly start from: Everything what functions in every day life functions too in the game.
Everything else only functions if the rules or the GM(the group) allows it.
A additional rule: The rules are to be interpreted
to match the fluff.

This would be funny, if here would really be people who would stick to the "way of interpretation" they claim. But nobody does. Just as long as the results seem fitting, they claim they do. So it is just silly.

I think there could be a good rules argument that critical strike can be used with magic fingers, but its not within the skill being used. Critical Strike doesn't say anywhere in it's description that it can be used with any Unarmed Combat attack, just that is has to declared when making said roll. That said, it does say it has to be used with an unarmed attack, or an attack without weapons, and magic fingers is not technically a weapon. You can't modify it, enchant it, nor does it appear on any weapons table...it can only do damage by virtue of having a strength score.

On the other hand, magic fingers are not your unarmed attacks, but the spells, so it may not work. The rules are not clear.

Would I allow it? No. Regardless of what RAW says, which there are good arguments either way, the intended rule is that you cannot combine them. Distance Strike is an already existent adept power that is designed to do pretty much the same thing, but at a much higher resource cost(PP). Since there is an in game method for magical ranged attacks, I wouldn't let the player get something better for the price of a spell.

...Pixies actually have 20/50 flying movement, according to RC pg 85.

It's not the price of a spell. It's the price of a spell, a Magic attribute, a Spellcasting skill with possible specialisation, and possibly a mentor spirit and/or spellcasting Focus.

Of course those get to be used for other things as well. Still, you need them.

And better?
Out of chargen, an ork or troll physad is likely far better off doing it the normal way. This actually goes for just about any physad.

Uhm, lots of people realized it. It had been an issue for multiple editions of the game. People just ignored it by and large because of how dumb it was.

As for the main subject, look at it like this. Magic Fingers creates a non-sentient demi-spirit that the magician has to control with intense concentration and in exacting detail. It's not actually the magician punching you, it's a manifestation of mana with its own stats that are completely independent of the magician and instead based on its "force" (as determined by successes on the spellcasting). It's just that to control that non-spirit, the rules use the magician's own skill level (with a penalty) to reflect just how much control has to be exerted and the fact that it's completely non-sentient.

Nobody(in the RC) exept Nagas has a swimming rate, so nobody is able to swim?

Are you being intentionally obtuse, or just ignoring the skill for exactly that?

He is talking about Swim Rates... Which leaves Sasquatch, Pixies, Centaurs and Drakes out of the water apparently, as they have no movement rates in the water. All others are an extrapolation of the metatypes, and their Swim rates are in the SR4A, Page 137.

Drakes are not a separate race, hence use movement for the base metatype they have.
Also pixies not being able to swim is something I can definitely see. Low weight to surface area ratio, plus those wings getting in the way will do that.

While sustaining the Magic Fingers spell, you'd have an additional penalty (of -2 dice) to tests made with those Magic Fingers. That's getting hefty. You could use Heightened Concentration and a sustaining focus to mitigate both penalties.

If, as Glyph says, you cannot deliver Touch spells via Magic Fingers, could you deliver Touch spells via a cybertail (paid for with Essence)? How about a customised lengthened cybertail that tapers to monofilament, that you (choose to) direct through the battlefield using Magic Fingers?

In a similiar note, i'm pretty sure most of the Fish in running wild don't have Gills, either.
I wonder if they forgot swim speeds, too.
too lazy to check

Fish would be mad to still swim with all the submersible aircraft carriers around. I'd take to flying instead.

I've noticed that almost every broken build starts "a troll with...".

Yep, forgot that Drakes were based upon a Metatype... Ooops...

And they don't mention Fur either, I would bet... SO, damn, most animals must really be cold. Really Udoshi, somethings are best left to common sense, don't you think? Any other result is just asinine...

On pixie flight: They get to fly because they have a fly speed noted as part of their movement rates. It is fluff that it only works because of magic, but there's actual crunch to back it up - unlike your troll example, which is another case of the Straw Man and Red Herring logical fallacies. Please people, learn some new tricks.

To everyone else: Get off the word "psychokinetic" in Magic Fingers and check the parts that I've quoted and emphasized ad nauseum. It works by RAW. No one is telling you you have to run a pure-RAW game at your tables - I am just informing you what the bone-dry RAW ruling of those powers is. Hell, I'm not even telling you how it's run at my table: just to reiterate, I am telling you that, by the Rules of the game As Written, you can use Critical Strike and many other adept abilities (and spells...) through the use of Magic Fingers because certain conditions are being met by the interaction of those abilities with the function and mechanic of said spell.

If you don't like it, house rule it, but I'm tired of hearing you guys perform Straw Man and Red Herring fallacies because you don't like the mechanics of a certain part of a game. You asked how some rules work, you got your answer.

EDIT:

This is simply wrong. Nowhere in the spell description (or the entire Shadowrun setting...) is there any mention of anything remotely resembling a "non-sentient demi-spirit," except debateably a Watcher Spirit (except they are a full spirit). You are fabricating false information in an attempt to get others to agree with yourself.

Also: On gills and fur - those Powers are retrofitting those things onto creatures that do not originally have them. Gills are an addition to creatures that have lungs originally, and Fur... is fluff (quasi-pun intended). There's hardly any game benefit to it at all (although there are a couple that do have benefits and, you guessed it, animals that do not have those special furs mentioned do not get to participate in those benefits).

No, you're just clinging to the words I chose to use to describe the effect (while just a breath ago you were whining about people using "psychokinetic" for the same purpose). The main point remains: The spell is its own entity (whatever/however you want to describe it), with its own independent stats that have nothing to do with the adept who cast the spell. The spell is simply using the adept's skills in place of its own because it doesn't have any skills of its own because the adept is directly controlling it. It's little different than jumping into an anthroform drone. That doesn't change the fact that its not the adept throwing a punch, it's the spell hitting someone with the same general level of skill as the adept.

Saying that an adept can use their adept powers through such a spell is just wrong because it breaks nearly every rule about adept magic in the game. Weapon Foci don't work if you throw them at someone, Distance Strike doesn't work with such powers at all because of those magical theories. But, somehow, Magic Fingers gets away with it because, uhm, no one says it doesn't (as opposed to the fact that it would have to say it does allow the use of them because of the contrary nature of those theories).

This absurd notion that there has to be a rule stating that something isn't possible is exactly that: Absurd. This is completely different from, say, the discussion about Hardliner Gloves and adept powers because that set of rules doesn't break the basic theories of magic in the game. This is a case of exclusion from the rules, whereas the gloves are a case of inclusion.

The spell uses the same aura as the caster. The spell is sustained by the caster. The spell allows the use of the skills of the caster. The caster has an ability that states that when he uses his Unarmed Combat skill, X, Y, or Z happen. When the caster uses his Unarmed Combat skill, X, Y, or Z happen, regardless of whether it is through a spell or not because that is what the nature of those abilities simply is.

You are arguing from a RAI standpoint, but that was not the purpose of this thread or the reason of the OP - it was purely a RAW question. It has been answered. RAW, it works.

EDIT:


The Hawker-Ridly Skytrain with 2 full mechanical arms wielding a bow was a better example.

Wrong. Spells have their own distinct auras (hence being able to assense them), they just bear the signature of their caster.


Partially wrong. The caster uses his skills to control the spell's effect.


Actually it says they can use the spell "as if" they were their real hands, meaning if you can turn a door knob with your hands, the spell can, too. Not that they are their real hands, nor that they are an extension of their own body. As previously stated, the spell is an independent entity, one in which the caster can manipulate with fine control using their own skills. And even then there are special rules, such as needing to make an Agility Test to pick up a coin.

You're the one making stuff up and claiming that it's the rules as written.

The spell literally states that it creates a set of psychokinetic invisible hands complete with their own set of attributes. Those aren't the caster's hands. No matter how blue in the face you get claiming otherwise. It's right there in black and white.


Wrong.

Incidentally, I like how you're complaining about people reading the spell's description and actively telling them to ignore it, all the while thrusting out your chest and claiming that you're reading it as written and intentionally ignoring context and the rest of the game.

"Magic Fingers creates a psychokinetic effect like 'invisible hands' that can hold or manipulate items." That's the RAW. Not your misinterpretation thereof.

Neraph, I'm sorry to say this, but your constant "I'm telling you what RAW is" attitude is a little aggravating. RAW, just like anything else, can in many instances be interpreted differently by different people.

So please stop trying to be the sole keeper of the sacred knowledge of RAW. These discussions are all our opinions, nothing more.

@Neraph

No, you are not. Like 90% of the time, you are making shit up.

You are reading two or three words of the rules an start making an interpretation on this words only. Leaving the rest of the rules rotting in the dark.
Then you start claiming, your interpretation to be RAW.
Yes, it is RAW. RAW of three to five words you picked, while ignoring the rest. Well, guess what: Acting like this everything is RAW.

The more I read Dumpshock, the more I think that they'll need to have lawyers write the next edition if they want to please people here.

@Blade
Well, even that won't help, since people insist on reading only the parts they seem to find fitting.

As a matter of fact, all the RAW leading to nonsense, caused by poor wording, is not discussed very often on dumpshock.
Simply because it would weaken players. My swimming example is one of those.
Very few people would consider that.
Natural armor counting towards encoumbrance is an other one.

If you got some time on hand and like the brain exercise you may find a lot of them.

But they are not brought up, because close to nobody reads the rules as a whole, like you would read a book.

It goes likely this way: My char got this and that would I be allowed to combine it to get more POWER.
Here the rules make very little mistakes, if you read them. (If you would like something to compare, try DSA. There this is a real problem. Or I think even worse is vampire)