Magic fingers and unarmed combat Options

[Mardrax]

When your entire interpretation of a rule hinges on your interpretation that using Unarmed Combat skill makes an attack an unarmed combat attack, then your interpretation of RAW is debatable, if not plain wrong.
If you then proceed to claim that since an entity or force is directly controlled by a character, the attacks it makes should for all intents and purposes (except indicated otherwise) treated as if the character makes them himself, this just stacks the table against your argument.

The RAI part of the argument: that the argument you use should lead to the conclusion that an adept rigging an anthroform drone should share the same benefit is only secondary, and unneeded to support the main two issues.

[Seth]

Well at the start of this thread there were a lot of arguments in favour of, and against.

Now there are just arguments against. As it happens I still find the arguments against weak, but I find the for arguments weak as well. As I said shadowrun is a game, so I cannot run an experiment and work out what actually happens, instead I have to guess. So unless some "for" people shout out, I'll go with the against

[James McMurray]

You can't run an experiment to see how magic fingers works, but you can easily run repeated trials to see how the ruling works in play.

[Ol' Scratch]

I'd like to see you quote page references to back up your claims at any point in time.

I've made my points. Go back and re-read the part where I extensively quote the rules. You gentlemen have decided to take a RAI interpretation of the fluff over a pure-crunchy-goodness RAW section, quoted from the book, to claim a house rule is the RAW. There is nothing wrong with house ruling things... except for when you incorrectly state that a house rule is in fact the RAW.

Nah. I, personally, have this really nasty habit of reading everything as a whole, then use this thing called a "brain" to interpret that data to come to a conclusion. You, on the other hand, are sticking your head in the sand and blatantly ignoring entire swathes of text to come to your conclusion.

There's a reason GMs are living, breathing people. There's a reason this isn't a video game. There's a reason all that text exists.

Saying you don't like it and house rule it is one thing. Trying to claim that it's what the rules are actually trying to say is another.

[Irion]

@Neraph
Take this thread for a start.

You hole argument was the word unarmed combat refering to the skill in one occasion and as a general term in the other (well and the third time mentioned it was an attack).

As Tymeaus Jalynsfein pointed out it is RAW to what the +1 DV is added. And this damage code does in no way influence magic fingers. It is more than obvious.

Well but to point it out:
Does magic fingers use your strength?
No, it does not.
Does magic fingers use your Damage Value in unarmed combat?
No, it does not.
It has its own strength and its Damage Value is calculated on this.
So RAW is CLEAR in this instance. It just takes a read of the rules.


An other thing would be your inhabitation spirit in the sword would take damage from hitting stuff.
So well, I was mistaken. You do not make shit up, you just ignore everything contradicting your interpretation and then take the point: Everything what is not forbidden is allowed.

@Halinn

And if I declare using it when making an Unarmed Combat attack with Magic Fingers? What part of the description says that it won't work in that case?

Nothing. Because you can't declare it in the first place.

@Ol' Scratch

If it worked the way I think you're implying, Channeling would be next to useless. Mainly because the gestat would be using the spirit's Mental Attributes, meaning it wouldn't be using the host's (so he'd have Logic 0, Intuition 0, etc.; basically, a vegetable). And I'm pretty sure that's not the case, either specifically or implied.

I do not get this. Spirits have mental attributes. They just do not have magic for adept powers. (But yes, this rule is stupid in the first place.)

[Ol' Scratch]

I do not get this. Spirits have mental attributes. They just do not have magic for adept powers. (But yes, this rule is stupid in the first place.)

Channeling (a specific metamagic technique with its own set of rules) is not the same thing as Possession.

When being Possessed, the host is completely subdued. He cannot use any of his abilities and, at best, is a silent witness to whatever the spirit is doing. If the host is also the summoner, he can issue commands to the spirit but that's the extent of it.

When Channeling, the host is not subdued at all. He's simple a part of a gestalt entity; a blending of both host and spirit. The host can perform actions, or the spirit can perfom actions. The only difference between Channeling and being completely unpossessed is that the host uses the gestalt being's Attributes in place of his own on any tests he makes, including those using Magic (which could be higher or lower than his own depending on the Force of the spirit he's Channeling). He in no way loses any of his abilities while Channeling. That would completely negate the entire point of Channeling.

[Irion]

@Ol' Scratch
Well, as a matter of RAW the (mental) attributes are still replaced as is the magic attribute.

My point is, that the adept powers are tied to the magic attribute. If your magic attribute is gone, so are the powers.
I think it becomes obvious if we look at a mystik adapt.
Before possession he has a magic of 3/3 (magician/adept). Now he is possessed by a Force 6 spirit.
What is his magic now? 6/6? 6/3? 6/0?0/6?
On what basis do you calculate the ItNW?
As a matter of fact, magicians do not have any problem, since casting just needs any magic attribute (not accounted to adept powers).

[Ol' Scratch]

During possession he rolls (spirt's Force) whenever he rolls a test using Magic, because that's the Magic attribute the gestalt being has while Channeling. His actual Magic doesn't change one bit, nor does he gain or lose any powers; it's just "overruled" by the spirit's Force during the Channeling. The same is true of his other Special and Mental Attributes. He doesn't lose his Charisma, Logic, Edge, etc. simply because he's Channeling; he just uses the spirit's in place of his own when making tests instead. With the specific exception that any Resistance Tests made using Mental Attributes uses the weaker of the two beings.

If he's a social adept and wants to use, say, Enthralling Performance, he uses the gestalt Magic attribute (ie, the spirit's Force) when making his Skill + Magic Test. Just like he'd use his gestalt Agility (Host+Force) when shooting someone with his Pistols skill, or his gestalt Charisma (Force) when using his Con skill to smooth talk his way past a guard. If he gets shot, he has the benefit of the gestalt's Immunity to Normal Weapons (Force). If he wants to dodge, he uses either his skills with the gestalt attributes, or allows the spirit to use its skills with the gestalt attributes. etc.

[Irion]

@Ol' Scratch
So what is about overcasting?

[Irion]

@Ol' Scratch
So what is about overcasting?

[Ol' Scratch]

What about it?

[Irion]

If I am a Mytic adept with 4/2 (adept, magician) and a Force 6 Spirit is possessing me.
What do I roll (spells/adept powers) and what are my limits when casting? What force is taken to calculate the power of my adept qualities. What Magic is taken for rolling spirit powers.

[Dahrken]

Personnally I would rule that anything that comes from you own abilities (spellcasting, adept power) use your personnal magic score, and whatever ability/power comes from the spirit use the spirit's Force.

[Ol' Scratch]

Once again: While Channeling (<-- Channeling, not Possessing), you use the gestalt attributes. In this case, you use the spirit's Force because while Channeling, that's your Magic attribute. If the host is the one casting the spell, then he uses his skills and spell list. Everything else is handled as per the standard rules, including the results of Drain. In the case of Drain, which is a resistant test, he uses the lowest of the possible Mentral Attributes courtesy of the exception listed in the Channeling rules. So if he's a hougan and has Charisma 3 and Willpower 6, but is Channeling a Force 5 spirit, he would roll 8 dice (Charisma 3 + Willpower 5) for that test.

In your specific example, you would be rolling 6 dice on any Magic Tests you made, whether as the host or the spirit. Neither your adept powers nor the spirit's powers change in the slightest, save for their degree of success due to any changes in the dice pool caused by the Attribute changes. This is exactly the same as if you both had Unarmed Combat. Whichever one of you (host or spirit) that was initiating the action would use their Unarmed Combat skill plus their gestalt Agility score (Host+Force) to determine their dice pool. There's no difference between the two concepts.

[Dahrken]

That's why I wrote "personnally", as in "House Rule".

If you want to nitpick the deciption of Channeling says that you can use your own skills and have fine motor control over your body, but does not explicitely state that the host can use DNI (the possessing spirit cannot) or even activate non-permanent Adept powers...

[Irion]

@Dahrken
Sounds the most resonable.

@Ol' Scratch

In the case of Drain, which is a resistant test, he uses the lowest of the possible Mentral Attributes courtesy of the exception listed in the Channeling rules.he would roll 8 dice (Charisma 3 + Willpower 5) for that test.

Nope only on spell resistant test. As far as I understand the rules he would role 10 dices.

[Ol' Scratch]

Is it limited to Spell Resistance Tests? I haven't read it in a while so misremembering isn't that big of a shocker.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is it limited to Spell Resistance Tests? I haven't read it in a while so misremembering isn't that big of a shocker.

I believe that it is for any Mental Test actually... But I could be wrong...

[Dahrken]

It's mana spell/powers resistance tests only : page 55 "Additionally, the vessel resists any mana spells or power with the lowest Mental attribute of the two minds (whichever is lower, the spirit's or the magician's)."

[Irion]

Additionally, the vessel
resists any mana spells or powers with the lowest Mental attribute
of the two minds (whichever is lower, the spirit’s or
the magician’s).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, there you go... Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)