House Rules, fixing the game rule by rule Options

[Garvel]

We use the karma creation system in our group...with a few modifications. All metatypes and special races have a cost equal to twice their BP cost in karma at character creation. All metatype attribute bonuses are applied after attributes are purchased(so an elf buying charisma 5 would pay the same as a human buying charisma 3). Maximum karma spent on attributes is 1/2 total karma, regardless of metatype, and special attributes are not included in this limit.

LOL. We use EXACTLY the same houserule for character creation. And we came up with it ourself, we didn't copy it from anywere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Might be coincidence, but I rather think it's the fact that it is the best character creation method, because it hasn't got the weaknesses that BP-System and the normal Karma-System have.

(Note that in our houserule an ork will have to pay 25 karma to gain an average charisma of 2 (he buys it up from 1 to 2 for 10 Karma and then from 2 to 3 for 15 karma. Then his metatype-attribute-"bonus" (-1) is applied (3 - 1 = 2))

I never understood why a troll that goes to the fitness center to boost his strength from "Underdeveloped" to "Typical" has to pay 35 Karma for that, while a human that goes to the fitness center to boost his strength from "Underdeveloped" to "Typical" has to pay only 15 Karma.
It simply isn't plausible. Does it really take trolls and orks that much longer to grow muscles? No, actually they grow up even faster, and an ork child will have an average muscle build (5) even earlier than human or elf child (3).

In the karma-creation-system this leads to punishing orks and trolls that have average or higher strength and body stats, and rewarding orks and trolls that stay below the average stats for strength and body. This this will rather deter players from building well rounded characters, especially since strength is rather useless anyway.

In the BP system this isn't a big issue, because the players can easily circumvent paying this extra-cost. But it's still stupied that they have to do that trick. Or, if you belong to the players that don't care if the characters are optimised, it is annoying that you won't do it, but other players will, and therefore will have a better character than you have.
(In the BP system players can circumvent paying more karma for raising Attributes with metatype-bonuses easily. They simply buy this attributes for BP at the highest level they will ever need at character start. They save the BP for doing that on not Meta-boosted attributes, that are much cheaper to raise with Karma later. This can make a difference of 70 karma or more for a troll.)

"All metatype attribute bonuses are applied after attributes are purchased"

Does this apply for Karma gained after generation too?

Yes, of course. I can only speak for my group, but thats the whole point of what is good about the karma-creation-system. You will always pay the same karma-cost if you by something, no matter if you by it at character-generation or later in the game. You don't have to worry about wasting karma because you didn't buy it in the right order.
Karma-generation is the better system exept for the weakness, that it rewards "slim" trolls and orks and punishes "classic" trolls and orks. Our houserule fixes that weakness.

Maximum karma spent on attributes is 1/2 total karma, regardless of metatype, and special attributes are not included in this limit.

We had it this way, but after playtesting we decided that with an x5 cost for Attributes it wasn't necessary anymore to have a limit for karma spend on Attributes. In BP-system and Karma-"x3"-system the limit was really necessary for obvious reasons. But with x5 cost the rule is a superfluous relict and will only forbid some rare character-builds that were fine anyway. Using all your karma to boost your attributes isn't good anymore, because now it's actually expencive and the karma would be better invested in skills and other stuff.
At least in play-practice we didn't have any characters yet, where the abolishment of the limit was a problem.

[Ol' Scratch]

It also almost entirely sabotages the point of skill groups, since you're always better off buying 6 in one skill than 4 in the group.

Assuming Skill Groups remain the same. (Nevermind that the entire point of Skill Groups were introduced to cover real "defaulting" to begin with, but failed miserably in every conceivable way.)

[Irion]

@Garvel

Yes, of course. I can only speak for my group, but thats the whole point of what is good about the karma-creation-system. You will always pay the same karma-cost if you by something, no matter if you by it at character-generation or later in the game.

Thats sounds solid and reasonable.

I never understood why a troll that goes to the fitness center to boost his strength from "Underdeveloped" to "Typical" has to pay 35 Karma for that, while a human that goes to the fitness center to boost his strength from "Underdeveloped" to "Typical" has to pay only 15 Karma.

Well it is quite simple. Attribute boni are too good otherwise.
So a Troll pays 100 Karma to be a troll and gets 140 Karma in Attributes for FREE.
Then on top of the cake you get the reduced costs. Well, lets but it like this: Its a very good deal.
Well, talking of a Troll this is compensated by his massiv Body. (Which should be factored in when sneaking etc.)
But Orcs do get nice deals.
Normaly you may balance it a bit by giving a Human +2 Edge instead of one.

A well if we are in the range of attributes.

You do not lose one point of Magic if you lose one Point of Essence. Instead for every Point your Essence is below 6 your effectiv magic rating is reduced by one.
Example: Karl Combatmage has Magic 5 and Essence 6. He is getting a pair of Cybereys reducing his Essence by 0.4, thus reducing his magic to 4(5). For all aspects he is using his magic of four. Later on he buys one point of Magic for 6*5= 30 Karma, and now has 5(6). If Karl parts with his Cybereyes and undergoes revitalisation (for 0.4 Essence) his magic will return to 6(6).
This prevents shortcuts and cheap rebuys of magic.

[Glyph]

I don't think TheOOB's house rule includes paying extra for lower-capped stats. If it did, there would be almost no point whatsoever to playing an ork or troll, other than in a very limited role as dimwitted brute muscle. I mean, a troll would be paying double the metatype cost, then have to pay 45 points just to have ones in Charisma, Intuition, and Logic? Sure, he wouldn't pay extra for higher Body or Strength, but he's already 125 points in the hole compared to a human, 135 if you include the human Edge bonus, and will be paying higher to raise three stats to barely tolerable levels. TheOOB's house rule is functional (although I prefer the semi-official Errata), but Garvel's version makes orks and trolls all but unplayable.

[Irion]

@Glyph

but Garvel's version makes orks and trolls all but unplayable.

Why is this?
Troll is at 80 Karma for Race. On top there is 10 for Logic 1, 10 for Intuition 1 and 25 for Charisma 1.
On the other hand you get 140 Karma in str. and body. So you come up 15 Karma+
Well, I guess the human does not need +1 Edge...

[Makki]

makes orks and trolls all but unplayable.

I did the math. in fact I reprogrammed the DK excel chargen. and turns out you're wrong. as long as you stick to average attributes, karmacosts are very similar.

[Halinn]

@Glyph

Why is this?
Troll is at 80 Karma for Race. On top there is 10 for Logic 1, 10 for Intuition 1 and 25 for Charisma 1.
On the other hand you get 140 Karma in str. and body. So you come up 15 Karma+
Well, I guess the human does not need +1 Edge...

You forgot the -1 Agi, leading to them being 5 karma in the plus, relative to a human being up 10 karma.
Orks break even with humans (i.e. they're 10 points up on their race cost), dwarves are 25 points below a human, elves are 35 points below a human. I'd say that there ought to be a better way of balancing the racial costs.

[Irion]

@Halinn
Well, if the elf is just getting charisma 5, agility and edge 5 and you compare this to a human, you end up at:
Human:
Race: 0
Charisma: 70
Edge: 45
Agility: 70

Elf:
Race: 60
Charisma: 25
Edge: 70
Agility: 45

Well, the numbers show the elve is still 15 points low.
I guess dwarf will at least break even with humans if you get to 5 with every attribute having a bonus or malus. Orks will come out ahead I suppose.
So it ain't that bad. Elves are a bit to expensive I suppose. So cut them to 40 to 50 Karma. Trolls maybe to 70.

[Ol' Scratch]

Or start everyone at Attribute 1 and let them pay for their attributes normally. Give Humans some kind of additional perk beyond the lousy Edge bonus (such as allowing them to break the limit on rating 5 or 6 Active Skills, or maybe a discount on Skill Groups or just flat out for purchasing Skills during characterion), then you can tack on a surcharge for each race based upon their inherent abilities and let the Attributes balance themselves. Considering, you know, that's pretty much the only advantage of the Karma system anyway; high scores are kept in check by their gross costs.

So yes, a Troll can have a Body and Strength of 11, but it's going to cost him. A lot. In addition to the tax for his Thermovision, Reach, and Dermal Armor (say 5 Karma a pop). If they want to stay within Human tolerances, then they get a discount for being so relatively weak for their species, but are still paying for the growth potential courtesy of said tax. The heart of the problem is Humans anyway. There's really no incentive to play one for the sake of playing one. At least in Earthdawn they had some pretty cool abilities, like Versatility.

It'll take some tinkering to get the feel right, but that's about the only way you're going to make it at least somewhat fair across the board. Assuming you really have an issue with it, rather than just biting your nails over potential abuses that no one would allow at a gaming table anyway.

[Glyph]

Yeah, the troll may come out ahead by 5 net points, but there are four Attributes he will be paying higher on, versus two that can be raised more cheaply. Trolls get a net bonus in both the build point and the karmagen systems because they have so many lower maximums. Honestly, I was never fond of Attribute penalties in the first place, and thought it was a good idea to get rid of them.

Elves get screwed over a bit under that house rule, but within a tolerable amount (35 points at baseline, less as they increase either Agility or Charisma beyond the minimum), and they come behind humans in all of the systems - you are paying for the ability to get certain important Attributes higher. Trolls, on the other hand, get little use out of a high Body and Strength unless you are running them as typical dumb brute tanks - and I generally like to play against the stereotype when I make trolls.

Humans aren't that bad in karmagen (or in build points, once you go over 400 points). I can put together some decent human builds in karmagen without running out of points for certain concepts. The one house rule that I have considered is having special Attributes not count against the 375 point limit in char-gen. Mainly because it mainly affects humans, and doesn't hinder most metahuman builds.

[Ol' Scratch]

The point I was trying to make (I really suck at this apparently) is that if all of the races have something attractive, then their costs aren't really that important. Humans get the short end because all they get is a lousy +1 to Edge. With the Karma system, the cost of raising attributes pay for themselves. The only thing that stops that from being balanced in and of itself is the whole augmented maximums. But if you make those based on a character's current attributes, rather than their racial maximums, that can solve that problem as well. I've always felt it should be handled that way anyway, truth be told, or not at all.

I mean, how exactly can a Body 3/Agility 3 Elf support a pair of cyberarms with Agility 10 whereas a human with the same attributes can't? Why can't the Human just slap that bad boy on and gain the same perks? It clearly has little to do with their actual capabilities, afterall.

[Method]

Haven't seen many house rules for initiative in this thread yet. Seems to me there are oodles of those around here...

Personally, I hate the "1 turn = 3 seconds" non-sense. Combat is supposed to be fast paced, but a serious firefight should last longer than 10 seconds and involve reloading. I tend to use something like: 1 turn = 30 seconds / 1 Pass = ~ 10 seconds / 1 Action Phase = ~1 second.

[Muspellsheimr]

The point I was trying to make (I really suck at this apparently) is that if all of the races have something attractive, then their costs aren't really that important. Humans get the short end because all they get is a lousy +1 to Edge. With the Karma system, the cost of raising attributes pay for themselves. The only thing that stops that from being balanced in and of itself is the whole augmented maximums. But if you make those based on a character's current attributes, rather than their racial maximums, that can solve that problem as well. I've always felt it should be handled that way anyway, truth be told, or not at all.

No, it doesn't. I (& others) have proven this multiple times when the Runner's Companion karma generation system was released.



And why is it that whenever I come here now, it seems there is a new House Rule thread, with entirely new people posting new house rules, half of which identical to or slight variations of those I released on this site over a year ago?

I'm putting a fucking link to my house rules in my signature.

[Ol' Scratch]

Maybe the world just doesn't revolve around you?

And in response to your reply, yes it does. The problem comes from augmented maximums being unrelated to your actual attributes. The fact that a +1 to an attribute in the Karma system has diminishing returns for its cost is the balancing factor in and of itself. And, again, if you make all of the races desirable, it comes down to choosing based on the perks rather than solely looking at the attributes and ignoring everything else.

That troll with Body 11 and Strength 11 is paying a fortune for that privilege... a fortune that, say, a human can exploit in individual and varied skills. Doubly so if the human's racial perk was skill based as mentioned earlier, so that they get even more bang for their buck that way. A troll with 6's across the board should be equal to a human with 6's across the board, right down to their augmented maximums, with the only difference being their costs based upon their secondary advantages and maybe a slight tax for being able to exceed those numbers in the troll's case. Of course, he'll have to blow a ton of in-game karma for the advantage, and the human will be earning just as much to spend elsewhere.

Character creation as it stands right now is painfully two-dimensional. And the greatest fault of all for that is the stupid Attribute = Skill mechanic that SR4 uses.

[Muspellsheimr]

Combat is supposed to be fast paced, but a serious firefight should last longer than 10 seconds and involve reloading.

If combat lasts more than 10 seconds, one of three things is happening:

• All involved parties are incompetent morons
• All involved parties are incredibly skilled
• There is a significant amount of cover / avoidance tactics in use

If 3 seconds is to short, it's only by 1 or 2, not 27.

[Garvel]

The point I was trying to make (I really suck at this apparently) is that if all of the races have something attractive, then their costs aren't really that important. Humans get the short end because all they get is a lousy +1 to Edge.

Humans are the norm. They are less victim to racism, and they will attract less attention which is important to shadowrunners. You can hide easier in the crowed and it's less likely that witnesses remember you. Note that Human-Looking is a positive quality while Elf-Poser is a negative quality. That is what is special about them besides edge.

The problem is that humans exist in reality, so the Devs can't just say that they are huge or extremely charismatic. The normal human abilities is what everbody is use to as a standart. If you want to give them special abilities, you will have to take this abilities away from all other races.

[Ol' Scratch]

The problem is that humans exist in reality, so the Devs can't just say that they are huge or extremely charismatic. The normal human abilities is what everbody is use to as a standart. If you want to give them special abilities, you will have to take this abilities away from all other races.

Funny, lots of games have found ways to make Humans special. In Earthdawn, they have a monstrous ability called Versatility that basically let them tap into any other "class" to pick-and-choose which powers from that class they wanted to use. In games like Warcraft, they have perks like the "Human Spirit." In D&D, they get bonus skills and feats. etc.

[Garvel]

Funny, lots of games have found ways to make Humans special. In Earthdawn, they have a monstrous ability called Versatility that basically let them tap into any other "class" to pick-and-choose which powers from that class they wanted to use. In games like Warcraft, they have perks like the "Human Spirit." In D&D, they get bonus skills and feats. etc.

I didn't play those games, but I guess that racism or witnesses remembering you isn't as important in those games as it is in shadowrun.
Shadowrun has decided for the less prominent and more lucky approach.
I for one never expirienced a problem with too few humans being played. So I don't see the need to change this.

In one other game I played, Elves got -1 to intelligence. To me that made elves seem stupied compared to humans, and I didn't like that.

In Shadowrun every meta-human or his ancestors have been humans once before. If you give every human the ability to learn things quicker, that only means that the goblinisation gave every meta-human a learning disability. This may be ok for orks an trolls, but for elves and especialy for draws it's inappropriate. Draws are supposed to be gifted for technical skills. While this rumor doesn't necessary have to be true, at least the opposite shouldn't be true.

[Ol' Scratch]

Eh?

First, the whole "humans are less noticeable" thing is silly. If that were true to the extent you're trying to present it, any shadowrunner who isn't a human should practically be killed on spot. There are more than enough metahumans in the game to blend into the background, especially since the game doesn't even come close to enforcing that concept to begin with. Doubly so since actual security measures, including security scanners, fingerprints, facial recognition, ritual samples, and etc. don't give a damn what your metatype is. Find a Human in the Sixth World is just as hard as finding a Troll with the exception of qualities such as Distinguishing Style which can apply to Humans as much as anyone else. And Humans can face just as much, if not more, prejudice not only from their own race (hello Nazi Germany, how you doing?), but from the various other ones at that. See how well a Human'll fare if they walk into the Ork Underground, especially if he bumps into a trog gang leader.

Second, everything you said in the last part of your response is negated by the simple fact that Humans already get a unique racial perk. Not only that, but no, not every metahuman in the game was a human or had human ancestors. Immortal elves, alone, completely negate that bit. Nevermind the various other metatypes such as Free Spirits, AIs, Centaurs, Pixies, and so on and so forth. Not that it matters one iota, because the advantages gained by a race have little if anything at all to do with their ancestory. Someone with a high Agility could easily have had ancestors who were all incredibly clumsy or physically disabled, and vice versa. You know why? Because it doesn't matter. They are who they are, with only a handful of genetic markers passed down. It's even more weird that you seem fine with that for orks or trolls. That's just silly.

[phlapjack77]

I too hate Skill Groups - they move the game farther away from something that makes sense in an (bad) attempt to fix the mechanics. For instance, the Influence group doesn't include Intimidation. Seems like it would make sense that it would, right? Except that would put 5 skills into the Influence group, making it too "good". So common sense goes out the window.

I think Etiquette should be many specific knowledge skills, maybe giving bonuses to other Charisma-linked skills.

Another favorite house rule: Essence costs are doubled when calculating Magic loss.

[Method]

If 3 seconds is to short, it's only by 1 or 2, not 27.

Yes, a single exchange of gunfire should be short and violent, but a good combat scene should last more than a few seconds. I have very seldom seen a RAW SR combat last more than 2 or 3 turns (6 - 9 seconds) and most last only 1. I've almost never seen anyone run out of ammo. The problem is that in RL people miss a helluva lot more than they do in SR.

And yes, combat should involve a lot of cover and avoidance. Thats much more interesting than spending a half hour (or more) of table time to describe 3 seconds of some guys shooting at each other just before a mage casts a stun ball FTW.

[braincraft]

Haven't seen many house rules for initiative in this thread yet. Seems to me there are oodles of those around here...

Personally, I hate the "1 turn = 3 seconds" non-sense. Combat is supposed to be fast paced, but a serious firefight should last longer than 10 seconds and involve reloading. I tend to use something like: 1 turn = 30 seconds / 1 Pass = ~ 10 seconds / 1 Action Phase = ~1 second.

Close-range, indoors firefights between small, well-trained, well-armed tactical squads, most instances of which are ambushes? And most of these guys are superhuman reflex-boosted monsters?

If you have time to reload it's only because everyone else is dead and you've already got a head start on the reinforcements. It might take a little longer if you have larger groups, at longer range, outdoors with lots of cover, but ten seconds actually sounds on the long side for the contacts assumed.

[Garvel]

And Humans can face just as much, if not more, prejudice not only from their own race (hello Nazi Germany, how you doing?), but from the various other ones at that. See how well a Human'll fare if they walk into the Ork Underground, especially if he bumps into a trog gang leader.

So to stay in the houserule topic:

Qualities:

Human-Looking
Cost: 5 BP

Elf Poser
Bonus: 5 BP

Human-Looking has to be rename into:

Human-Poser
Bonus: 5 BP

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

66% of seattles population are humans. All races are victim to racism in shadowrun, but it's still less likely for humans.
An idiot who complains about the fact that somebody has a different skincolor than him will go nuts if somebody is an ork or a troll.
And it's not like all runs play in the Ork Underground, Tir-Tangire or Black Forest Troll Kingdom. In a normal run you will have to deal with those 66% humans.
Its easier for an human to avoid the ork underground than it is for an ork to avoid the rest of seattle.

It's even more weird that you seem fine with that for orks or trolls. That's just silly.

Like I said, I wouldn't like it if draws are less talented in technial skills than humans are.
Orks and trolls get a reduced logic maximum anyway, so it would be less bothering if humans were better at learnig than they are.

I think Etiquette should be many specific knowledge skills

I like that idea. It would be more logical to have more than one skill for Etiquette, than having one that includes all.
Like it's said in the description of Etiquette:

The Etiquette Skill allows a character to function within a specific subculture
without appearing out of place.

If you know exactly how to behave in europa, that doesn't mean that you know how to behave in China.
(I heard that in earlier editions there where many different Etiquette active skills, but only one Fireweapons active skill. Not exactly ballanced. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Making Etiquette a knowledge skill would solve that problem.)

[Vegetaman]

Yes, a single exchange of gunfire should be short and violent, but a good combat scene should last more than a few seconds. I have very seldom seen a RAW SR combat last more than 2 or 3 turns (6 - 9 seconds) and most last only 1. I've almost never seen anyone run out of ammo. The problem is that in RL people miss a helluva lot more than they do in SR.

And yes, combat should involve a lot of cover and avoidance. Thats much more interesting than spending a half hour (or more) of table time to describe 3 seconds of some guys shooting at each other just before a mage casts a stun ball FTW.

Ah, but the gunfire causes other gunmen to start pouring into the room. And that is where the real fun begins!

But yes, combat is usually over in 2-3 turns. The worst I have seen was maybe 10, due to people hiding behind things and backup arriving.

[Ol' Scratch]

66% of seattles population are humans.

Which means one out of every three people you run into isn't a Human. I can't imagine such a rare circumstance! Why, I doubt if your average Human ever sees anything but other Humans on a daily basis. 66%. Overwhelming!

Like I said, I wouldn't like it if draws are less talented in technial skills than humans are.

Who said they would be? Not that it matters considering how dwarves aren't at all technically-oriented stat wise and, if you just look at the archetypes that have existed since day one in the game, they're not any particularly better at it than anyone else. I think I've seen exactly two techy dwarves in all that time; one was bitching about "yeah, it's a stereotype, so what?" and the other was just a rigger. Most of the time you see orks and even elves as the techy types. Let's see, in SR4 you have the Covert Ops Specialist (Human), Drone Rigger (Dwarf), Hacker (Ork), Smuggler (Human), Technomancer (Human), and Weapon Specialist (Elf). That's three Humans, one Ork, and one Dwarf. I'm surprised you're not suffering an aneurysm at this revelation; since you have a penchant for dodgy numbers from random sources, that means Humans are three times more technically oriented than Dwarves, and Orks are every bit as techy as they are. Oh dear...

And for the love of God, it's "dwarves" or even "dwarfs" if you want to go pre-Tolkien.

Orks and trolls get a reduced logic maximum anyway, so it would be less bothering if humans were better at learnig than they are.

So what your argument really boils down to is "this is how it is and I don't like change or new ideas." You can't argue one thing then dismiss it elsewhere just 'cause. Not if you want that argument to actually be worth a fig.

Also, let's not even consider the idea of adding different types of perks to other races to reflect genuine racial aptitudes (which doesn't even exist in the game as it stands; no standard race has direct advantages with specific Skills).