This thread is intended for everyone to write down his or her house rules fixing minor or major glitches in the original rule set.
Houserules written down here are also open for debate.

So show how I thought this to be, I am going to give some examples:

Problem: Unconscious oponents are more vulnerable to gel rounds, then to real amunition.
Fix: Lethal damage get worse. Half the amount of lethal damage (after soking) is substracted directly from the stun monitor (round up). If the stun monitor is full, the rules for damage overflow apply. Platelet Factories and Trauma Damper are applyed after the calculation of the additional stun damage and only to the original lethal damage.

Example: Urlak the Orc is shot with an Ares predator for 5 boxes of damage (lethal). He has a body of 6 and is wearing a lether jacked (2 armor).
So he is rolling is dieces getting 2 hits, thus reducing the damage to 5. Since he is just coming from a mean fist fight he only got 2 boxes left of his Stun monitor.
So he is filling up his stun monitor and reducing and applying 6 points of damage to his health monitor. A Platelet Factorie would reduce his health damage to 5, a Trauma Damper would have no effect at all.

What does also change: Well, overcasting is taking a bit of a hit, because of the additional stun damage.

Some popular ones...

1) Extra BP for Contacts during character generation based on CHA (x2 or x3), in a similar fashion as the free Knowledge Skills.

2) Fake SINs are not compared in an opposed roll with a scanner, but rather the Rating is used as a threshold for the scanner test.

Some others I like...

3) Knowledge Skills can be used in the same manner as Teamwork to gain extra dice, where applicable.

4) Emotion Software works in the same way as a Teamwork test. Emotitoys only give one bonus die for every 2 hits on the Teamwork test.

5) Armor encumbrance is based on Strength x2 (or alternatively Body + Strength) instead of Body x2.

6) When overcasting, Drain is resisted twice (once for Physical and once for Stun). Also the part of the Force that exceeds the Magic Attribute isn't halved (i.e. when overcasting, DV = Magic / 2 (rounded down) + Force - Magic, which is the same as Force - Magic / 2 (rounded up)). For the Heal spell and when Summoning with a Force greater than Magic, Drain is resisted twice (once for Physical and once for Stun), but the DV is unchanged.

7) Drain from Banishing is only equal to the number of hits scored by the spirit (not twice the hits; minimum DV 1).

8) Drain from the Adrenal Pump is resisted using Body + Willpower.

9) Temporary Attribute increases (drugs, Attribute Boost, Adrenaline Pump, etc; but not sustained spells) can go beyond the augmented maximum, up to an absolute maximum of twice the natural maximum for the Attribute.

Bye
Thanee

We use the karma creation system in our group...with a few modifications. All metatypes and special races have a cost equal to twice their BP cost in karma at character creation. All metatype attribute bonuses are applied after attributes are purchased(so an elf buying charisma 5 would pay the same as a human buying charisma 3). Maximum karma spent on attributes is 1/2 total karma, regardless of metatype, and special attributes are not included in this limit.

Other major house rule, stick-n-shock ammunition does not exist. Those wanting to do stun damage with firearms can stick to gel rounds, and those wanting the electric effect can use tasers, stun batons, shock gloves, and magic. Stick-n-Shock rounds are simply too good, and their expense is way too low for an item that will statistically take down most foes in a single shot.

@TheOOB

Does this apply for Karma gained after generation too?

Exactly why do you believe this? I am not sure about your conclusions on this one, which is why I am asking? Stun rolls over to Physical... Lethal Rounds ARE ALREADY Physical. So, assuming that your stun track is full, both types of rounds are equally lethal. How is the Unconscious opponent more vulnerable exactly?

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
So yes I start with a full stun track.
As far as I know gel amunition gets +2 DV and +2 Armor. So it causes more damage on avarage.

But even if this was changed beeing hit by a gel round shoud not be as deadly as beeing hit by regular ammunition.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
So yes I start with a full stun track.
As far as I know gel amunition gets +2 DV and +2 Armor. So it causes more damage on avarage.

But even if this was changed beeing hit by a gel round shoud not be as deadly as beeing hit by regular ammunition.

Hm.. as far as i know gel-rounds are -1DV +2AP (and reduce body by two for knockdown-related comparison)

Ah well. Houserules:

Mine are:

You can limit your nethits in whatever activity for a -2 modifier when rolling. Useful in melee for damage, or with magic for drain-control, but i allow it everywhere (for example for seeming not as competent)

Active foci can be disabled by astral combat and counterspelling, even when the attacker is purely astral. They can come back "online" after force minutes for themselves.

Watcher are summoned at half summoners magic and have a +2 dice bonus for using their power and perception.

Spirits can only manifest in vehicles if those are slower than the ghost could move in the physical world.

Also i allow for pretty much ALL optional rules. (really... most of them are really enhancing the game: Specialist magicians, Redlining, Stress and serious wounds, lowered healing rolls. martial arts and combat modifiers. etc.)

I have a ton, but I'll only list a few.

• Net Hits: Unless a specific situation deems otherwise, players can ignore hits on various tests. SR4's dice mechanic doesn't separate between accuracy and intended effect. This gets around it. (No, better control of your actions should not be a hindrance in most situations. Yes, it works fine if your intent is to kill someone when shooting your gun at them. No, it doesn't work fine if your intent is to knock someone out with a non-lethal attack.)
• Dice Mechanics: The Rule of Six is always active. Glitches occur if you roll more 1s than your Skill level where applicable, rather than half your dice pool. The type of Glitch is dependent on just how many 1s were rolled; if it was just one or two over the limit, it'll be something humorous or mildly inconvenient. If its a buttload, it may be more serious, but you still succeed if, well, you succeed. I like Glitches, both as a player and GM. I hate how they almost never show up in most situations because of the stupid size of dice pools in the game. This fixes that.
• Character Creation: "Ignore build points and just assign the appropriate ranks to the various skills and attributes your character should have. We'll look over it when you're done and see if any adjusting needs to be done to make them more suitable to the group and campaign as a whole. Use the various tables in the main sourcebook as a guide for choosing these ranks." This one produces much more believable characters. Unless you play with immature munchkins, this method not only works perfectly fine, but actually avoids one's natural urge to min/max when given artificial limitations. You don't have to do cheesy shit just to make your character viable, afterall.
• Initiative Passes: Don't exist. Gone completely. Augmentations, technical or magical in nature, simply boost your Initiative normally, and any that grant Initiative Passes instead grant bonus dice on defense tests like Dodging, Parrying, or Surprise Tests. Costs are greatly reduced as a result. New rolls are made each turn. The number of hits determine who goes first. Ties are solved by Reaction scores. (So yes, they actually improve your reaction time without letting you fire your pistol at some ridiculous speed compared to everyone else, and players and NPCs alike aren't obligated to have similar technology just to have a chance to survive combat. Mundane characters are very viable.)
• Foci and "Magic Items": These do not have binding costs, but instead 'sap' their owner's Essence (or Magic if they have it and prefer to tap into that isntead) in much the same way cyberware does. For Weapon Foci its a 1:1 ratio. For more rare or specialized ones, like Summoning or Counterspelling Foci, the ratio is less hindered. These foci do not allow mundanes to use skills they don't normally have access to, including Astral Combat and Counterspelling, nor do they grant a Magic attribute to them, but they will aid them as per the standard rules were applicable. Thus a mundane can use a Weapon Focus to hurt a materialized spirit. When a focus is deactivated, the Essence or Magic points are returned. I used to use the old Blood Magic system (where you temporarily lost boxes of Physical Damage for the duration of their activity, but that was too much.) Essence lowered in this way does not lower Magic, and dropping to Essence 0 because of a foci simply causes you to suffer (Force) boxes of Stun damage every combat turn until you deactivate or drop it.
• Watcher Spirits: These aren't limited to Force 1, but they have no combat capabilities whatsoever beyond whizzing around and acting as a minor distraction. (Hey, what's that, a simple solution for making them more useful? Unpossible.) However, instead of having a limit on how many Watcher Spirits a magician can have active at one time, it's instead limited by the total Force. So you can have one really powerful one active, or a lot of little ones.
• Hacking: Simplified to Attribute+Skill tests with utilities providing a +2 dice pool bonus in their related tests. Costs of utilities are greatly reduced, and opposition is handled in similar fashions based on the type of system being used. Technomancers are just magicians who tap into the Matrix rather than the Astral and share most of the same mechanics, including Drain. To this day I have no fucking idea what they were thinking with this crap in SR4, especially considering the overall philosophy of the edition. "Hey, I know. Let's ignore all the work we did into making combat, magic, and everything else work under the same basic principles and instead make the Matrix some alien game system with no recognizable connection to anything else in existence!" "Whoa, that's a great idea. Let's run with it."

I like the concept behind the glitch modifier, but it really falls apart extremes. The Rules as Written one only really has problems at the 1-2 dice pool range.

Agility 1, Skill 6, -2 modifiers: 5 Dice Pool, 6 or more 1's glitch
Agility 9, Skill 6, +4 modifiers: 19 Dice Pool, 6 or more 1's glitch

Being better at a task should not increase the chances of fucking up.

One of the problems with only listing some of the changes is that it's easy to miss some of the related things that keep it in balance. For instance, we use a lot of colored dice and the above rule only applies to the Attribute+Skill dice. The rest of the dice pool doesn't really come into play, and the micro-rant I went off with was in reference to the one-dice-pool-to-rule-them-all system in the default rules. I just didn't think it through when I typed it above.

That said, I get where you're coming from and noticed it before, too. But its never really been an issue and everyone seems to like how it works despite that. I've struggled with various different dice mechanics that I could use with minimal changes to the overall rules (most notably where Attributes are the randomizer and Skills are solid bonuses), but they fell apart even easier whether it was in a normal everyday situation or in the extremes.

One of the nice things about house rules is that the only people who have to be happy with it are the ones playing with them no matter how weird they are.

I really like this idea. It's pretty solid and simplifies things a lot for me. Sprites are just Spirits and utilities are just spells, then? Threading is just overcasting? I guess this means a technomancer in your game needs much fewer skills, but still has to buy that resonance attribute.

I use CHR x 5 "free BP" for contacts, because I like contact/legwork driven games. But I also handle contacts a little differently: a contact's Connection rating is based on their backstory and costs nothing; the PC pays BP = Connection for each point of Loyalty. So if you really want to have the local Oyabun for your uncle or a Lonestar chief as your long-lost best friend, it will cost you.

A lot of the other "houserules" I use are more about flavor. Some examples:
-- Stick and shock is only available for shotguns and doesn't affect spirits
-- AV ammo only comes in calibers larger than light machine gun
-- Anyone who brings an emotitoy to the negotiating table is summarily shot in the face with no save

You know, stuff like that...

Best houserule. Ever.

I flipped the wound penalties around, so that they start as soon as you take even a single block. I also capped the Physical at the -3, since otherwise it seems to penalize your Body bonus metas for being able to take more damage.

Of course, it would help immensely if I actually knew the rules, and didn't run some bastardized amalgam of all the 3rd Ed. rules still burned into my brain using the jist of 4th Ed. (Like spirits no longer having domains. Who knew?)

What is the benefit of this? The normal rule is:
What happens when a magician in an aeroplane or bullet train summons a spirit using your house rules? It simply arrives in the astral and refuses to psychically manifest to its summoner? What does that accomplish?

What happens (under your house rules) if a spirit is psychically manifesting to a character (say a Watcher delivering a message to someone in a stationary autotaxi) and the vehicle begins to move faster than the spirit "could move in the physical world"? Does the spirit stop manifesting automatically, in the middle of the conversation? Does the spirit pass through the back of the vehicle and continue manifesting from there at its top speed?

Wound Penalties: These don't apply to initiative until your next round. This is mostly to avoid having to rearrange the order every other time someone pulls a trigger.

Direct Combat Spells: We use the net hits increase drain optional rule. It's on probation but seems to be ok so far.

Strength for recoil: We use recoil compensation for high strength.

Stunting: Stolen from Exalted and Scion. Adding description to your actions gives you 1, 2, or (rarely) 3 extra dice. It also gives the players limited narrative control over their environment.

Oh, another one we use is similar to the defaulting rules from previous editions. If you can argue how another skill can be used to perform a task or the skills are simply related, and it's not a stupid idea, you can use a different skill with a -2 penalty to its rating in its stead. So you can use your Medicine 4 skill to perform First Aid as if you had it at a rating of 2. If you have no related skill at all, you can still use your raw Attribute but with a -3 penalty instead of the normal -2.

Also when defaulting, your maximum number of hits is equal to your effective skill rating or 2, whichever is higher. If a threshold requires more hits than you can possibly achieve, you cannot perform that action.

@Bodak
I think he meant materialize. (I hope I did not pick the wrong word, too)

I don't know if that's the best of all possible ideas. Sure, at low levels, you're only getting one or two bonus skill levels from defaults; if you plan on abusing defaults, you could easily get ridiculous numbers of effective free skill levels.

I like Ol' Scratch's idea, sounds similar to the skill web of years gone by. Not that that didn't have problems, but...

Ideas like this about defaulting just make sense. Why can you have a 5 Automatics skill, but don't know how to shoot a longarm rifle? A spec in heavy pistols, but no skill shooting a machine pistol?

This isn't my house rule, and I don't remember who to attribute it to, but it went something like:
Shooting a pistol / smg in SA - pistols skill
Shooting any kind of rifle / shotgun in SA - longarms
Shooting anything in BF / FA - automatics skill

Actually, Bodak, Summerstorm is talking about Materialization...

OOOps... Missed Irion's Post...

When I am GM, I tend to fudge the margins for "cinematic effect", even though it may be a bit out of scope of a turn limit or how something would actually go down with the in game mechanics... But, those cases are very sparingly and done for effect where neither side really gets screwed over.

It only seems that way in comparison to the default rules, which are incredibly insane. As Jack points out, there's really no sensible reason why someone who can fire an Assault Rifle with a high level of skill (let's say Skill 6) shouldn't at least be fairly competent when tossed a Sporting Rifle. But by the default rules if he's forced to use one and doesn't have the Longarms skill, he's effectively at -8 dice. Give him a Machine Pistol, which I imagine is far more alien than using another type of rifle, and he shoots it just fine... at least until he discovers that the BF/FA weapon in his hand is actually just a Light Pistol that has had a FA conversion, making it a Pistol... and now he's at -8 again.

It also almost entirely sabotages the point of skill groups, since you're always better off buying 6 in one skill than 4 in the group.

LOL. We use EXACTLY the same houserule for character creation. And we came up with it ourself, we didn't copy it from anywere.
Might be coincidence, but I rather think it's the fact that it is the best character creation method, because it hasn't got the weaknesses that BP-System and the normal Karma-System have.

(Note that in our houserule an ork will have to pay 25 karma to gain an average charisma of 2 (he buys it up from 1 to 2 for 10 Karma and then from 2 to 3 for 15 karma. Then his metatype-attribute-"bonus" (-1) is applied (3 - 1 = 2))

I never understood why a troll that goes to the fitness center to boost his strength from "Underdeveloped" to "Typical" has to pay 35 Karma for that, while a human that goes to the fitness center to boost his strength from "Underdeveloped" to "Typical" has to pay only 15 Karma.
It simply isn't plausible. Does it really take trolls and orks that much longer to grow muscles? No, actually they grow up even faster, and an ork child will have an average muscle build (5) even earlier than human or elf child (3).

In the karma-creation-system this leads to punishing orks and trolls that have average or higher strength and body stats, and rewarding orks and trolls that stay below the average stats for strength and body. This this will rather deter players from building well rounded characters, especially since strength is rather useless anyway.

In the BP system this isn't a big issue, because the players can easily circumvent paying this extra-cost. But it's still stupied that they have to do that trick. Or, if you belong to the players that don't care if the characters are optimised, it is annoying that you won't do it, but other players will, and therefore will have a better character than you have.
(In the BP system players can circumvent paying more karma for raising Attributes with metatype-bonuses easily. They simply buy this attributes for BP at the highest level they will ever need at character start. They save the BP for doing that on not Meta-boosted attributes, that are much cheaper to raise with Karma later. This can make a difference of 70 karma or more for a troll.)


Yes, of course. I can only speak for my group, but thats the whole point of what is good about the karma-creation-system. You will always pay the same karma-cost if you by something, no matter if you by it at character-generation or later in the game. You don't have to worry about wasting karma because you didn't buy it in the right order.
Karma-generation is the better system exept for the weakness, that it rewards "slim" trolls and orks and punishes "classic" trolls and orks. Our houserule fixes that weakness.


We had it this way, but after playtesting we decided that with an x5 cost for Attributes it wasn't necessary anymore to have a limit for karma spend on Attributes. In BP-system and Karma-"x3"-system the limit was really necessary for obvious reasons. But with x5 cost the rule is a superfluous relict and will only forbid some rare character-builds that were fine anyway. Using all your karma to boost your attributes isn't good anymore, because now it's actually expencive and the karma would be better invested in skills and other stuff.
At least in play-practice we didn't have any characters yet, where the abolishment of the limit was a problem.

Assuming Skill Groups remain the same. (Nevermind that the entire point of Skill Groups were introduced to cover real "defaulting" to begin with, but failed miserably in every conceivable way.)

@Garvel

Thats sounds solid and reasonable.


Well it is quite simple. Attribute boni are too good otherwise.
So a Troll pays 100 Karma to be a troll and gets 140 Karma in Attributes for FREE.
Then on top of the cake you get the reduced costs. Well, lets but it like this: Its a very good deal.
Well, talking of a Troll this is compensated by his massiv Body. (Which should be factored in when sneaking etc.)
But Orcs do get nice deals.
Normaly you may balance it a bit by giving a Human +2 Edge instead of one.

A well if we are in the range of attributes.

You do not lose one point of Magic if you lose one Point of Essence. Instead for every Point your Essence is below 6 your effectiv magic rating is reduced by one.
Example: Karl Combatmage has Magic 5 and Essence 6. He is getting a pair of Cybereys reducing his Essence by 0.4, thus reducing his magic to 4(5). For all aspects he is using his magic of four. Later on he buys one point of Magic for 6*5= 30 Karma, and now has 5(6). If Karl parts with his Cybereyes and undergoes revitalisation (for 0.4 Essence) his magic will return to 6(6).
This prevents shortcuts and cheap rebuys of magic.

I don't think TheOOB's house rule includes paying extra for lower-capped stats. If it did, there would be almost no point whatsoever to playing an ork or troll, other than in a very limited role as dimwitted brute muscle. I mean, a troll would be paying double the metatype cost, then have to pay 45 points just to have ones in Charisma, Intuition, and Logic? Sure, he wouldn't pay extra for higher Body or Strength, but he's already 125 points in the hole compared to a human, 135 if you include the human Edge bonus, and will be paying higher to raise three stats to barely tolerable levels. TheOOB's house rule is functional (although I prefer the semi-official Errata), but Garvel's version makes orks and trolls all but unplayable.

@Glyph

Why is this?
Troll is at 80 Karma for Race. On top there is 10 for Logic 1, 10 for Intuition 1 and 25 for Charisma 1.
On the other hand you get 140 Karma in str. and body. So you come up 15 Karma+
Well, I guess the human does not need +1 Edge...

I did the math. in fact I reprogrammed the DK excel chargen. and turns out you're wrong. as long as you stick to average attributes, karmacosts are very similar.

You forgot the -1 Agi, leading to them being 5 karma in the plus, relative to a human being up 10 karma.
Orks break even with humans (i.e. they're 10 points up on their race cost), dwarves are 25 points below a human, elves are 35 points below a human. I'd say that there ought to be a better way of balancing the racial costs.

@Halinn
Well, if the elf is just getting charisma 5, agility and edge 5 and you compare this to a human, you end up at:
Human:
Race: 0
Charisma: 70
Edge: 45
Agility: 70

Elf:
Race: 60
Charisma: 25
Edge: 70
Agility: 45

Well, the numbers show the elve is still 15 points low.
I guess dwarf will at least break even with humans if you get to 5 with every attribute having a bonus or malus. Orks will come out ahead I suppose.
So it ain't that bad. Elves are a bit to expensive I suppose. So cut them to 40 to 50 Karma. Trolls maybe to 70.

Or start everyone at Attribute 1 and let them pay for their attributes normally. Give Humans some kind of additional perk beyond the lousy Edge bonus (such as allowing them to break the limit on rating 5 or 6 Active Skills, or maybe a discount on Skill Groups or just flat out for purchasing Skills during characterion), then you can tack on a surcharge for each race based upon their inherent abilities and let the Attributes balance themselves. Considering, you know, that's pretty much the only advantage of the Karma system anyway; high scores are kept in check by their gross costs.

So yes, a Troll can have a Body and Strength of 11, but it's going to cost him. A lot. In addition to the tax for his Thermovision, Reach, and Dermal Armor (say 5 Karma a pop). If they want to stay within Human tolerances, then they get a discount for being so relatively weak for their species, but are still paying for the growth potential courtesy of said tax. The heart of the problem is Humans anyway. There's really no incentive to play one for the sake of playing one. At least in Earthdawn they had some pretty cool abilities, like Versatility.

It'll take some tinkering to get the feel right, but that's about the only way you're going to make it at least somewhat fair across the board. Assuming you really have an issue with it, rather than just biting your nails over potential abuses that no one would allow at a gaming table anyway.

Yeah, the troll may come out ahead by 5 net points, but there are four Attributes he will be paying higher on, versus two that can be raised more cheaply. Trolls get a net bonus in both the build point and the karmagen systems because they have so many lower maximums. Honestly, I was never fond of Attribute penalties in the first place, and thought it was a good idea to get rid of them.

Elves get screwed over a bit under that house rule, but within a tolerable amount (35 points at baseline, less as they increase either Agility or Charisma beyond the minimum), and they come behind humans in all of the systems - you are paying for the ability to get certain important Attributes higher. Trolls, on the other hand, get little use out of a high Body and Strength unless you are running them as typical dumb brute tanks - and I generally like to play against the stereotype when I make trolls.

Humans aren't that bad in karmagen (or in build points, once you go over 400 points). I can put together some decent human builds in karmagen without running out of points for certain concepts. The one house rule that I have considered is having special Attributes not count against the 375 point limit in char-gen. Mainly because it mainly affects humans, and doesn't hinder most metahuman builds.

The point I was trying to make (I really suck at this apparently) is that if all of the races have something attractive, then their costs aren't really that important. Humans get the short end because all they get is a lousy +1 to Edge. With the Karma system, the cost of raising attributes pay for themselves. The only thing that stops that from being balanced in and of itself is the whole augmented maximums. But if you make those based on a character's current attributes, rather than their racial maximums, that can solve that problem as well. I've always felt it should be handled that way anyway, truth be told, or not at all.

I mean, how exactly can a Body 3/Agility 3 Elf support a pair of cyberarms with Agility 10 whereas a human with the same attributes can't? Why can't the Human just slap that bad boy on and gain the same perks? It clearly has little to do with their actual capabilities, afterall.

Haven't seen many house rules for initiative in this thread yet. Seems to me there are oodles of those around here...

Personally, I hate the "1 turn = 3 seconds" non-sense. Combat is supposed to be fast paced, but a serious firefight should last longer than 10 seconds and involve reloading. I tend to use something like: 1 turn = 30 seconds / 1 Pass = ~ 10 seconds / 1 Action Phase = ~1 second.

No, it doesn't. I (& others) have proven this multiple times when the Runner's Companion karma generation system was released.



And why is it that whenever I come here now, it seems there is a new House Rule thread, with entirely new people posting new house rules, half of which identical to or slight variations of those I released on this site over a year ago?

I'm putting a fucking link to my house rules in my signature.

Maybe the world just doesn't revolve around you?

And in response to your reply, yes it does. The problem comes from augmented maximums being unrelated to your actual attributes. The fact that a +1 to an attribute in the Karma system has diminishing returns for its cost is the balancing factor in and of itself. And, again, if you make all of the races desirable, it comes down to choosing based on the perks rather than solely looking at the attributes and ignoring everything else.

That troll with Body 11 and Strength 11 is paying a fortune for that privilege... a fortune that, say, a human can exploit in individual and varied skills. Doubly so if the human's racial perk was skill based as mentioned earlier, so that they get even more bang for their buck that way. A troll with 6's across the board should be equal to a human with 6's across the board, right down to their augmented maximums, with the only difference being their costs based upon their secondary advantages and maybe a slight tax for being able to exceed those numbers in the troll's case. Of course, he'll have to blow a ton of in-game karma for the advantage, and the human will be earning just as much to spend elsewhere.

Character creation as it stands right now is painfully two-dimensional. And the greatest fault of all for that is the stupid Attribute = Skill mechanic that SR4 uses.

If combat lasts more than 10 seconds, one of three things is happening:

• All involved parties are incompetent morons
• All involved parties are incredibly skilled
• There is a significant amount of cover / avoidance tactics in use

If 3 seconds is to short, it's only by 1 or 2, not 27.

Humans are the norm. They are less victim to racism, and they will attract less attention which is important to shadowrunners. You can hide easier in the crowed and it's less likely that witnesses remember you. Note that Human-Looking is a positive quality while Elf-Poser is a negative quality. That is what is special about them besides edge.

The problem is that humans exist in reality, so the Devs can't just say that they are huge or extremely charismatic. The normal human abilities is what everbody is use to as a standart. If you want to give them special abilities, you will have to take this abilities away from all other races.

Funny, lots of games have found ways to make Humans special. In Earthdawn, they have a monstrous ability called Versatility that basically let them tap into any other "class" to pick-and-choose which powers from that class they wanted to use. In games like Warcraft, they have perks like the "Human Spirit." In D&D, they get bonus skills and feats. etc.

I didn't play those games, but I guess that racism or witnesses remembering you isn't as important in those games as it is in shadowrun.
Shadowrun has decided for the less prominent and more lucky approach.
I for one never expirienced a problem with too few humans being played. So I don't see the need to change this.

In one other game I played, Elves got -1 to intelligence. To me that made elves seem stupied compared to humans, and I didn't like that.

In Shadowrun every meta-human or his ancestors have been humans once before. If you give every human the ability to learn things quicker, that only means that the goblinisation gave every meta-human a learning disability. This may be ok for orks an trolls, but for elves and especialy for draws it's inappropriate. Draws are supposed to be gifted for technical skills. While this rumor doesn't necessary have to be true, at least the opposite shouldn't be true.

Eh?

First, the whole "humans are less noticeable" thing is silly. If that were true to the extent you're trying to present it, any shadowrunner who isn't a human should practically be killed on spot. There are more than enough metahumans in the game to blend into the background, especially since the game doesn't even come close to enforcing that concept to begin with. Doubly so since actual security measures, including security scanners, fingerprints, facial recognition, ritual samples, and etc. don't give a damn what your metatype is. Find a Human in the Sixth World is just as hard as finding a Troll with the exception of qualities such as Distinguishing Style which can apply to Humans as much as anyone else. And Humans can face just as much, if not more, prejudice not only from their own race (hello Nazi Germany, how you doing?), but from the various other ones at that. See how well a Human'll fare if they walk into the Ork Underground, especially if he bumps into a trog gang leader.

Second, everything you said in the last part of your response is negated by the simple fact that Humans already get a unique racial perk. Not only that, but no, not every metahuman in the game was a human or had human ancestors. Immortal elves, alone, completely negate that bit. Nevermind the various other metatypes such as Free Spirits, AIs, Centaurs, Pixies, and so on and so forth. Not that it matters one iota, because the advantages gained by a race have little if anything at all to do with their ancestory. Someone with a high Agility could easily have had ancestors who were all incredibly clumsy or physically disabled, and vice versa. You know why? Because it doesn't matter. They are who they are, with only a handful of genetic markers passed down. It's even more weird that you seem fine with that for orks or trolls. That's just silly.

I too hate Skill Groups - they move the game farther away from something that makes sense in an (bad) attempt to fix the mechanics. For instance, the Influence group doesn't include Intimidation. Seems like it would make sense that it would, right? Except that would put 5 skills into the Influence group, making it too "good". So common sense goes out the window.

I think Etiquette should be many specific knowledge skills, maybe giving bonuses to other Charisma-linked skills.

Another favorite house rule: Essence costs are doubled when calculating Magic loss.

Yes, a single exchange of gunfire should be short and violent, but a good combat scene should last more than a few seconds. I have very seldom seen a RAW SR combat last more than 2 or 3 turns (6 - 9 seconds) and most last only 1. I've almost never seen anyone run out of ammo. The problem is that in RL people miss a helluva lot more than they do in SR.

And yes, combat should involve a lot of cover and avoidance. Thats much more interesting than spending a half hour (or more) of table time to describe 3 seconds of some guys shooting at each other just before a mage casts a stun ball FTW.

Close-range, indoors firefights between small, well-trained, well-armed tactical squads, most instances of which are ambushes? And most of these guys are superhuman reflex-boosted monsters?

If you have time to reload it's only because everyone else is dead and you've already got a head start on the reinforcements. It might take a little longer if you have larger groups, at longer range, outdoors with lots of cover, but ten seconds actually sounds on the long side for the contacts assumed.

So to stay in the houserule topic:

Qualities:

Human-Looking
Cost: 5 BP

Elf Poser
Bonus: 5 BP

Human-Looking has to be rename into:

Human-Poser
Bonus: 5 BP



66% of seattles population are humans. All races are victim to racism in shadowrun, but it's still less likely for humans.
An idiot who complains about the fact that somebody has a different skincolor than him will go nuts if somebody is an ork or a troll.
And it's not like all runs play in the Ork Underground, Tir-Tangire or Black Forest Troll Kingdom. In a normal run you will have to deal with those 66% humans.
Its easier for an human to avoid the ork underground than it is for an ork to avoid the rest of seattle.


Like I said, I wouldn't like it if draws are less talented in technial skills than humans are.
Orks and trolls get a reduced logic maximum anyway, so it would be less bothering if humans were better at learnig than they are.


I like that idea. It would be more logical to have more than one skill for Etiquette, than having one that includes all.
Like it's said in the description of Etiquette:

If you know exactly how to behave in europa, that doesn't mean that you know how to behave in China.
(I heard that in earlier editions there where many different Etiquette active skills, but only one Fireweapons active skill. Not exactly ballanced. Making Etiquette a knowledge skill would solve that problem.)

Ah, but the gunfire causes other gunmen to start pouring into the room. And that is where the real fun begins!

But yes, combat is usually over in 2-3 turns. The worst I have seen was maybe 10, due to people hiding behind things and backup arriving.

Which means one out of every three people you run into isn't a Human. I can't imagine such a rare circumstance! Why, I doubt if your average Human ever sees anything but other Humans on a daily basis. 66%. Overwhelming!


Who said they would be? Not that it matters considering how dwarves aren't at all technically-oriented stat wise and, if you just look at the archetypes that have existed since day one in the game, they're not any particularly better at it than anyone else. I think I've seen exactly two techy dwarves in all that time; one was bitching about "yeah, it's a stereotype, so what?" and the other was just a rigger. Most of the time you see orks and even elves as the techy types. Let's see, in SR4 you have the Covert Ops Specialist (Human), Drone Rigger (Dwarf), Hacker (Ork), Smuggler (Human), Technomancer (Human), and Weapon Specialist (Elf). That's three Humans, one Ork, and one Dwarf. I'm surprised you're not suffering an aneurysm at this revelation; since you have a penchant for dodgy numbers from random sources, that means Humans are three times more technically oriented than Dwarves, and Orks are every bit as techy as they are. Oh dear...

And for the love of God, it's "dwarves" or even "dwarfs" if you want to go pre-Tolkien.


So what your argument really boils down to is "this is how it is and I don't like change or new ideas." You can't argue one thing then dismiss it elsewhere just 'cause. Not if you want that argument to actually be worth a fig.

Also, let's not even consider the idea of adding different types of perks to other races to reflect genuine racial aptitudes (which doesn't even exist in the game as it stands; no standard race has direct advantages with specific Skills).