I should have emphasized, metatype attribute bonuses are applied after purchasing attributes, penalties work the same way they do normally, ie they change your cap. A troll will still only pay 10 karma to get a charisma 2, but they can't started with a charisma of 6 barring some ware/magic/qualities. I generally keep that rules during play as well as during creation, as a big part of why I like karma creation system is that is discourages min-maxing by making you pay the same during creation as you do during play, but my friend who uses similar rules has attributes cost normal price during play.

In any case though, I personally think as written in RC, the karma creation system is broken. Playing a non-human gives you too much benefit for no cost, but also penalizes you for trying to be good at what the metatype is good at, and not separating out special attributes from the 50% karma cap punishes awakened characters for no readily explored reason.

Also, I generally also include the CHAx5 free contact points, as I like to strongly encourage players to have contacts, and makes characters less likely to make their runners CHA dumps.

Minorities have more problems with racism than majorities. You can believe that statement or not. Its your game after all.


Description of dwarfs page 71 SR4a:

I think the description in the previous edition was even clearer in this point. I know there are no rules that boost tech skills of dwarves, but this are the expectations of the society. A dwarf has a beard and is good at tech use. And this picture of dwarves influences apearence and chosen career path of dwarves.



In my actual group are 4 humans and 1 ork. So I don't see demand for action to make humans more attractive.

Because under the standard rules, Humans aren't bad off. Unfortunately, you're focusing on the mole hill and missing the mountain. The point about making them more attractive is part of the greater concept of making the other races cheaper and simply allowing the cost of obscene attributes to balance itself. If humans remained as they are right now, and you got rid of the racial costs like they originally were this edition, and if you ignored the whole attribute maximum bit, then there would be little reason to choose a human beyond personal taste... and for the benefit of sabotaging yourself in growth potential.

How often do you see a human in the broken builds around here? You certainly don't see them in the melee monsters, or the social rules abusers, or the cyber junkies, or the spellcasters... or pretty much any of the other concepts where people are focusing on being uber specialists with the sole exception of Edge raping. It doesn't matter if you're using the BP system or the Karma system. Humans don't bring anything to the table except for that one point of Edge. Their main draw is personal taste, and that's pretty much it.

And relying on that to balance things (something that's actually plagued this game for quite a while, such as making Orks and Dwarves cheaper due to the lack of player interest) is really poor game design.

I believe that the social penalties for being a metatype(especially a goblin meta) account for a small part of the reduced cost overall for being a meta, but not a large one. Effectiveness is the most important quality a runner can have, and an effective runner will get their street cred, regardless of metatype. I think the costs should just more support playing to type. An elf is going to have less trouble being charismatic then a human, plain and simple.

I personally like my rules for meta costs in the karma creation system for two reasons.

The first is that metahumans are better than humans, that is not really an argument, except possible for a couple very edge centric builds. You get benefits, bonuses just for being a metatype, and you should have to pay for them. An elf gets +1 agi, and +2 cha just for being an elf, and low-light vision as a kicker, and most other metas have it better.

The second is that I don't want to penalize people for playing to type, you should not have to pay up the rear to play a super strong troll. The karma creation system(and really the karma system as a whole) encourages players to be bad at their race specialized attributes. Their bonuses kick them up to strong levels with no cost, but the higher levels on a linear power scale can get prohibitively expensive.

I think the costs balance out as well. Under my system, a dwarf costs 50 karma, but even starting at base 1s they gain 35 karma in their attributes(their cap penalty is more then offset by their other abilities), and even if they only go average on their stats(base 3), they are gaining 85 karma in attribute bonuses. The metatypes are still powerful, but humans will always have the advantage that you get something (a bonus to edge, which is very good), for nothing, and humans will always have more karma to spend then any other type.

I really do not like that, for the same reason Ol' Scratch offered. To apply a rule here and ignore it over there seems just like poor design.


This is just not true.

If you go Ork vs Human, all attributes at 3 you get:
Human costs: 215
Ork: 175+40=215
And the Ork still has 4 Body instead of 3. This is worth additional 20 Karma.

So even considering the general build, where the human should be superior, he is not.
So the ork is uperior in some build. For example as a adept (Throwing or melee), as a Sam (Body).


But considering this, you should be punished for not playing to type. So a Charisma Troll should be punished. A dwarfen driver should be punished.

Actually, the precedent is set by the BP system for it to work that way, and bonuses and penalties work differently regardless of how implement them. Also you know, you pay to play as a the metatype, tacking on an additional tax to reach one in an attribute seems a little redundant.



Except you are playing a weak Ork compared to an average human, and don't ignore the +1 maximum edge, I know several conjurers and hackers who would very much like that benefit.

Also, the meta's are punished for playing against type with lower caps and paying for attribute enhancements that are not strongly beneficial for them, but the punishment is not so severe as to make playing against type non viable.

We added another house rule to our game. It might be partially interpretation, partially house rule, but the Engulf power was kinda vague about how it worked so we clarified and weakened it some.

Engulf
The Engulf critter power is not paralysis, just immobility. Trying to escape is a complex action, but the victim can still take non-movement actions normally. Modifiers apply as if the spirit and the victim are in melee combat, and the spirit cannot move out of melee range if it wants to sustain the power.

@TheOOB

I did not miss the edge.

Well, the point is, a weak Ork is a as good as an average human. As a matter comparing a avarage Ork to a strong human would shift things towards the ork.


Sorry, what are you talking about? I just do not get it.

You gave the Ork the invisible super lucky quality that gives +1 maximum edge and stacks with the normal lucky quality? And doesn't apply twords positive quality caps?



Troll technomancers are paying for a high body and strength score that they don't really need, for example.

Exactly. Any attempt to "balance" metatypes needs to keep in mind that purchasing a metatype should be discounted, because you are buying a package deal - you don't get to deduct the cost of an elf's low-light vision because you get cybereyes, or give your tech wienie troll hacker a Strength of 3.

Overall, I think the metatypes are fairly balanced, in that they have their obvious niches, but can also be played against type. They won't be optimal if you do the latter, but they will be playable. Humans, though, fall in between the two areas. You don't get the optimization of a troll tank, or the "cool" factor of playing a troll hacker. They are just kind of bland. My only house rule for them, suggested on another thread, would be to let them spend an extra 20 BP on Attributes if they want to, since they are the only race that doesn't get bonuses.

If you do want to give humans an additional, tangible advantage, some possibilities are:

* Give them an extra x 1 multiplier for knowledge skills.

* Give them a +1 bonus that they can apply to any single core Attribute.

* Give them two free 3/2 contacts.

@TheOOB

No, as much as I did not give the human the super strong quality that gives +2 maximum strenght and sticks with metamagic and normal improved attribute and also increases the augmented max, and does not apply towards the positive quality caps.

I raised all the attributes to 5 (or3) (Edge, Strenght, Body) and looked were they ended up on the Karma Costs.
So I was able to calculate the benefit of it.

As long as a human hacker is better than an ork hacker it is balanced, because a human physical adapt is worse than an ork physical adept.
But if the ork hacker is getting better then the human one, something is not right.

Quick example: If I would follow you, there would be no problem introducing a "Terrance Hill Species" for 30BP, getting Edge +3. Would cost more than a ork and he would only get one attribute +3 not one +3 and an other one +2. Well, I even cut his strenght by one.

Discounts on packages should be based on the optimal use of that package, not the remote possibility that the world will suddenly be flooded with Troll hackers. If you're not balancing the upper end of the spectrum, you're not balancing anything at all.

Note: I'm not saying trolls are unbalanced, just arguing against the idea that packages don't need to be carefully balanced because someone might make a sub par build with them.

I'd weigh them more based on average builds with a slight bias towards optimizing, than purely on optimized builds. Otherwise you end up with package prices that make them bad if you're making only a "normal" character instead of an optimized one.

Currently under BP for example, trolls are not very attractive if you don't want to make a fighting character, although it can still be done, mostly because you can save on raising Body for Armor-bearing capabilities. But you pay for Strength you rarely use, and get hit with a Charisma and Logic cap (Intuition too? I don't remember.) It's still doable, but not all that attractive.

Some of my house rules:

1.) Free basic ammo with any lifestyle above squatter, includes regular, gel, etc. This is to get around needing to track how many rounds, magazines, etc, the PC's have stockpiled

2.) Assault rifles get an additional -1 AP. I feel that they're a bit underpowered, i.e. an Ares Alpha or AK-97 SHOULD have more hitting power than a heavy pistol. I'm also pondering/working on a few rules for making rifles/long-guns harder to use in close-quarters combat.

3.) Hacking/computer rolls generally use Logic + Skill + Program Rating. Thresholds are upped slightly to compensate. This makes it so a specialized hacker gets a bit more edge against someone with a few skills and plenty of cash for programs.

In order to give the characters a better feel that they are above the norm, I lowered the standard attributes of the general populace by one point, per the following, descriptive, table:

1) Underdeveloped, 0 month-4 year old child-level of comprehension, severely limiting, can't chew gum and walk at the same time, reality-impaired, severe muscle dystrophy.
2) Regular human, assumed amount needed to relate with normal society. Within the norm.
3) Above average, goes ot the gym often and works out 2-3 days a week, has nice abs, described as "smart" in school, or "that pretty girl over there", also that friend of yours who tends to make friends pretty easily when you go out.
4) Very good. You have /the/ bestest, nicest abs in quite a few gyms, you would be called by Calvin Klein to show them off, your force of personality makes teams want to pay you extra to serve as their face. That hot elf-magic using chica, wants your number also. Yes she is Mr. Johnson's bodyguard. No she wouldn't think of playing you for her employer's benefit.
5) World-class athlete. Your hand-eye coordination is amazing and a pleasure to watch. Your movements are like those of an well-oiled kitty-cat hunting in her prime. If human, you make metahumans seem underpowered in the attributes they usually get bonuses to. Well, not /all/ of them. But, yeah, orks describe you as: "That guy is big. As in ork-big, for a human." to their friends. You could compete with Schwarzenneger in his prime, in case you are a bodybuilder. If you are an athlete you run marathons for training.
6) Einstein, Alexander the Great, Iron Man-Marathon world-record establishing athlete, Damien Knight. You make olympic athletes run to their mom crying, you make Johnsons beg you to allow them to pay you more.
7) Above human records. Beyond what we may imagine. Think Einstein on steroids, you-are-THE-(wo)man. Seriously. /THE/. Corps want you to work for them... for whatever purpose they can think of. PR, advertising campaigns, think tank, experimentation...This is for humans. Think why some corps really like having meta's in their ranks... Elven PR? Yup, all those hot, nicely dressed and impeccable manners-models have pointy ears.
etc, etc, etc.

Huge post. Essentially got carried away. I know this is not perfect, but helps me lower the standard for the campaign and make characters roll less dice, which in turn makes growth more personal.

I llike Karma creation, and gritty rules, slow healing times (I use the slow one, in the BBB and insta double the time that it takes to heal. I also apply wound descriptions as part of the damage, and players follow that via role-playing. I really like a lot of the house rules Thanee put up, and I plan on using them. Specially the use of teamwork test for emotitoys.

Also, I lower the availability for starting mundane gear, not cyberware, not bioware, to 6. I also give free contacts, limit the starting character's contact connections to 4. During game contacts can only try to roll to get gear in their line of work, unless something exceptional happens, and then only on things up to their connections x2 availability. Characters can help their contacts to raise their connections, by getting them in touch with other contacts, thus extending the net.

I make etiquette different knowledge skills, used as support for social tests (teamwork). Influence group includes Intimidation.
Teamwork adds up to the helper's skill in dice.
Max. succeses are skillx2 on any test where said skill is relevant.
On extended tests, each roll has a -1 die penalty.
I double physical wound penalties.
Edge gives one die less each time it is used, renews at the end of an adventure.
Runs happen at a base of 8 weeks between them, on average, characters may roll street rep-bad rep stat (forgot the name... Notoriety?) to reduce that time. Edge can be used for this, making it unavailable for the upcoming adventure.
Only high and luxury pay up some of the character's bills. Software degradation happens, cyberware maintenance happens. High reduces these costs by 30%, luxury by 70%.
Training times are enforced, and roleplayed to some extent at the beginning of each session. I love downtime, that is where I really enjoy the game, developing characters. The runs? Oh, that's what they do be able to keep a downtime.
Vehicle customization tends to be kept at minimum, in weapons. In perks, engines and tires, at a maximum typically.
Armorer and repair skills are loved by characters, as well as programming. Since most of the gear, from low availability, in those areas tends to be produced or repaired by the characters themselves.

I think that pretty much covers it up...

Oh! And armour in social situations is a HUGE no-no. People don't take kindly to it, and street etiquette is against it. Thus leather jackets are one of the prime gears to have. Form-Fitting? Too hot... you sweat like a pig. Seriously. Very safe, just so very non chic chummer.

I guess that means you never lived as a black man in the southern US, where the majority population is around that number.

Problem: Attributes contribute too much to tests.
Solution: Attribute functions as a cap for Skill RTG, test is actually performed on Skill RTG x 2 dice.

I've noticed that, so long as you have just 1 lousy point in a skill, you can still have people rolling 6 or 7 dice (or 10 or 12). I find this somewhere in the realm of ridiculous.

For the most part this would control stupid parts of the Stat + Skill system, like all Trolls being master skydivers with no training. Characters would actually be reliant on skills. Additionally, each step up in a skill would provide two extra dice, making each skill rank a reasonable purchase.

This would open up a few questions with attributes, as in "why have a really super high attribute if it doesn't compensate for low skills?" But I think that solves itself pretty neatly:

Body: damage resistance
Agility: important for having any ranged combat skill
Reaction: dodging attacks, Initiative
Strength: melee damage, thrown weapons, bows
Charisma: Astral Combat, Drain (shaman), Technomancer crap
Intuition: Astral Combat, Initiative, Technomancer crap
Logic: Astral Combat, Drain (mages), Technomancer crap

For cyberware that upgrades an attribute, I would add the right number of points to the augmented total as normal, but also apply those points as a bonus to all skills linked to that attribute.

So let's say you've got a guy with Reaction 5 and Pilot Watercraft 1. Under the base SR4 rules he gets 6 dice, and under this set-up he'd get only 2. Let's say he buys Wired Reflexes 2, bumping his Reaction up to 7. Under the base rules he gets 8 dice, and under this set-up he gets 4. The closer to dead average you are the less effect this has (Reaction 3 Pilot 3 is 6 dice either way, and with Wired 2 it's 8 either way).

Defaulting needs a little work. -2 penalty? -3?

I dunno. Some people get by on raw talent, rather than skill. That should be recognized by attributes. Just my opinion.

Not a bad houserule otherwise.