Trollbows on Trollerblades., or, how fast do trolls go on inline skates? Options

[Stahlseele]

Sounds like primarily melee combat. How do you manage that? I learned my lesson about the cover system when I popped my head up into a full auto burst.

By Playing SR3, where stuff worked a bit different and seemingly being a natural twinkie for min/maxing this kind of character ^^
Hell, even my talker, the face, a proof of "yes, i CAN play such a character!" is more combat then half of the group put together...
Also, in SR3, a Troll-Bow was even more impressive than you think it is now in SR4 . .
And just because i am playing a Troll does not mean i don't try to use cover. If this means pushing a car in front of me, then so be it!

You just haven't been in a situation where legality has mattered.


I don't like the SURGEd stuff because they're too weird and rare in the fluff. SURGEd folks stick out like a sore thumb in any company, are easily recognizable, super hated by large numbers of racist groups, and often kidnapped for mind control brothels. You'd simply attract too much attention as many of the SURGEd types, more so than a one charisma troll would in most situations other than a boardroom. There's a reason that they don't take you inside for meets. That would double if you were a SURGEd type with a bounty on it. That and I'm afraid of what you do with four arms. and I don't own a copy of Runner's Companion.

BWAHAHAAHAHHAAAA!
Poor GM-Guy ^^

I wouldn't do much. just figure out a way to pump out attacks with force exceeding that of any weapon in any book 3 times combat turn. Ooh, I'm starting to... oh yes. how does a DV 30 bow sound to you? Yes, I mean DV 30. Before hits added.

BTW: bwahahaha!

P.S. I think I would have to give up on cyberware (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) .

Yees! come to the dark side of higher numbers! We have MORE cookies! ^^

[longbowrocks]

By Playing SR3, where stuff worked a bit different and seemingly being a natural twinkie for min/maxing this kind of character ^^
Hell, even my talker, the face, a proof of "yes, i CAN play such a character!" is more combat then half of the group put together...
Also, in SR3, a Troll-Bow was even more impressive than you think it is now in SR4 . .
And just because i am playing a Troll does not mean i don't try to use cover. If this means pushing a car in front of me, then so be it!

BWAHAHAAHAHHAAAA!
Poor GM-Guy ^^

Yees! come to the dark side of higher numbers! We have MORE cookies! ^^

I'll at least check out the dark side of more cookies. Higher damage without fiddling with four arms sounds appealing.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, more arms are, technically, not really worth it in most cases . .

[longbowrocks]

Yeah, more arms are, technically, not really worth it in most cases . .

Well, except that the phrase "a girl on each arm" would be exponentially more impressive.

[Stahlseele]

Yah, okay. But that's one of those not quantificable cases.
A pure, mechanical advantage of 4 arms compared to 2?
Slim to none.

[longbowrocks]

Yah, okay. But that's one of those not quantificable cases.
A pure, mechanical advantage of 4 arms compared to 2?
Slim to none.

I don't know how that would work for strength. drawing a rating 6 bow takes 6 strength, and since you are capable of that with 2 arms regardless of how many you have, is it safe to assume that your total STR would be double its listed value for STR checks involving only the upper body if you have 4 arms?

[Stahlseele]

Hah!
No!
Each arm has STR6. 2 Arms together still are at STR6.
And 4 Arms are STILL at STR6. So basically, the more Arms you have, the weaker each arm gets when you use mor than one for a single given task.

Nice try though, but them's the breaks. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
BECAUSE THE RULES SAY SO.

[Medicineman]

Yah, okay. But that's one of those not quantificable cases.
A pure, mechanical advantage of 4 arms compared to 2?
Slim to none.

More Attacks for You ,More Attack Dice AND viewer Defence Dice for your Enemy....?

with an advantageous Dance
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

How do you figure?
In Close combat, this does not happen.
Only with SingleShot ranged weapons do you get more attacks, because each is a simple action to fire and you can hold more.
How does one get more ATTACK dice out of this? You still have your normal dice, if you don't go akimbo, then the dice are divided by the number of weapons used . .

[Medicineman]

I was talking generally about the advantages of 4 Arms vs 2 Arms

in close Combat you get more Attack Dice (specialisation,and other Modifiers) and the Enemy gets -1/-2/-3/-4 Dice to Defend
and with ranged Combat you get more Attacks

How does one get more ATTACK dice out of this?
Modifiers are added after Poolsplitting
If you succeed in getting more positive Modifiers than negative ones you can get more Attack Dice

with a lucky Dance
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

Wait . . why do i get Specialisation and other Modifiers from more arms that another character does not get due to not having 4 or more arms? O.o

[longbowrocks]

How do you figure?
In Close combat, this does not happen.
Only with SingleShot ranged weapons do you get more attacks, because each is a simple action to fire and you can hold more.
How does one get more ATTACK dice out of this? You still have your normal dice, if you don't go akimbo, then the dice are divided by the number of weapons used . .

I didn't remember akimbo, but I guess if you get that, then it is technically more total attack dice. You roll your entire dice pool once for each attack, and with MRSI (from what little I remember) the hits from each attack should be added to the resulting modified damage. This begs the question: what is going to take 40+ damage from a bow and stay standing? Maybe cuendillar, but that's a whole different mythology.

[Medicineman]

Wait . . why do i get Specialisation and other Modifiers from more arms that another character does not get due to not having 4 or more arms? O.o

I don't quite understand the Question ???
You don't get ....
Ok example :
Swordfighter with
Agi 4
Skill Blades 4
Specialisation Swords
2 Swords with personalised Grip and Reach 1 (vs Goon with bare Hands)
and no sight or Wound Modifier
1 Attack wold be 4+4+2+1+1 = 12 Dice & Goon defends normally
2 Attacks would be 4 (Split Pool) +2+1+1 = 8 Dice EACH (so its 16 Dice total)
and Goon defends with -1 first Attack and -2 second Attack

HokaHey
Medicneman

[Stahlseele]

No, in close combat, this does not work if i am understanding these rules correctly.
Because in Close Combat, you do not use only one Weapon for your Attack, if you have 2.
Else, this would apply to using bare hands too . . and everybody and their mom(aside from naga) has at least 2 hands on 2 arms.
Basically, you are attacking once with one sword while holding the other with your 12 dice.
Then you attack with the other sword using your 12 dice again.

With GUNS that is more like you just described, but only if you shoot all guns at once, and not one after the other . .

I didn't remember akimbo, but I guess if you get that, then it is technically more total attack dice. You roll your entire dice pool once for each attack, and with MRSI (from what little I remember) the hits from each attack should be added to the resulting modified damage. This begs the question: what is going to take 40+ damage from a bow and stay standing? Maybe cuendillar, but that's a whole different mythology.

No much. That is for sure. This is why people STILL cry foul over Troll-Bows.
Even seeing how basically most anything else is plain better most of the time.
Because there are no rules for over-penetration. Just wasted Damage.
What would you need 40 Damage for against Metahumans? 20 Damage is enough to go through stun and physical Damage at once.

[Medicineman]

No, in close combat, this does not work if i am understanding these rules correctly.
Because in Close Combat, you do not use only one Weapon for your Attack, if you have 2.
Else, this would apply to using bare hands too . . and everybody and their mom(aside from naga) has at least 2 hands on 2 arms.
Basically, you are attacking once with one sword while holding the other with your 12 dice.
Then you attack with the other sword using your 12 dice again.
No Its not that way
You can Attack with only 1 Weapon or with both
Armed Close Combat is slightly different than unarmed close Combat.
With unaermed CC You're correct the Rules assume that you attack with both hands and or Feet and its no difference , but with armed CC ist different
I hope you believe me when I tell you that

Ohhh,If You have the MA Maneuver ambidexterity you get a free parry

with a free Dance
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs*
of course i believe you.
you don't strike me as the person who would lie to be right.
also, i am the first to admit that my SR4 rules knowledge is sketchy at best . .

[longbowrocks]

No, in close combat, this does not work if i am understanding these rules correctly.
Because in Close Combat, you do not use only one Weapon for your Attack, if you have 2.
Else, this would apply to using bare hands too . . and everybody and their mom(aside from naga) has at least 2 hands on 2 arms.
Basically, you are attacking once with one sword while holding the other with your 12 dice.
Then you attack with the other sword using your 12 dice again.
No Its not that way
You can Attack with only 1 Weapon or with both
Armed Close Combat is slightly different than unarmed close Combat.
With unaermed CC You're correct the Rules assume that you attack with both hands and or Feet and its no difference , but with armed CC ist different
I hope you believe me when I tell you that

Ohhh,If You have the MA Maneuver ambidexterity you get a free parry

with a free Dance
Medicineman

Reminds me of monk flurry of blows in DnD, but back to the topic at hand.

So, you DO add modifiers after splitting (or not splitting in the case of akimbo) your dice pool?

[Medicineman]

So, you DO add modifiers after splitting (or not splitting in the case of akimbo) your dice pool?

Yes we can do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) because Them's the Rules
Akimbo means shooting with two guns at the same time so you have to Split if shooting Akimbo
with Close combat thats Chambarra Fighting (IIRC)

HeyaHeyaHeya
Medicineman

[longbowrocks]

Ah, you made akimbo sound like a quality, so I went on an expedition through my books for it. I don't know where I got the idea that it let you keep your whole dice pool.

I'm gonna give combat a go-over for probably the 5th time since starting this confounded game. In the meantime, do you think a use of edge counts as a modifier (such that you would add it after splitting the pool)?

[Stahlseele]

depends on WHAT you want to do with your Edge.
Reroll Failures for more hits would be better if you have more dice than edge to begin with . .

[longbowrocks]

depends on WHAT you want to do with your Edge.
Reroll Failures for more hits would be better if you have more dice than edge to begin with . .

That can be used if you don't score any hits, so wouldn't "add edge to initial roll for rule of six on all dice" be better in general?

[Stahlseele]

*nods*
yeah.

[phlapjack77]

That can be used if you don't score any hits, so wouldn't "add edge to initial roll for rule of six on all dice" be better in general?

I can't find the original post that was being referred to, but it seems that if your dice pool is 2.5 times your Edge, then it's better to reroll failures

Link

[longbowrocks]

I can't find the original post that was being referred to, but it seems that if your dice pool is 2.5 times your Edge, then it's better to reroll failures

Link

Hm, could you describe the use of edge you're talking about in more detail? I'm reading this one: "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
But I'm reading it as: "the test did not score any hits".

[phlapjack77]

Do a search using the word "edge" in the title. You'll find 3, 4 or more threads talking about this.