Sniping Skill, Or: is every Street Sam w/ a smartlink a god of extreme range shooting Options

[Yerameyahu]

I only read the very beginning of this thread, but I assume someone mentioned the simple solution of *not* letting a scope negate *all* range penalties?

[Fortinbras]

But wouldn't the barrier that is the tank, prevent the spell from leaving from the mage to the designated point?

All the mage has to do is have line of sight, then he manipulates the mana around the point he has a connection with. The Fireball isn't coming from the mage's hands, the fireball is coming from another dimension.

[sabs]

Actually by strict understanding of the rules.. the Fireball should travel from his eyes.. to the very first mirror in the telescope and explode. But then MageGoggles don't make any sense. The short answer is that it's completely contradictory.

[X-Kalibur]

All the mage has to do is have line of sight, then he manipulates the mana around the point he has a connection with. The Fireball isn't coming from the mage's hands, the fireball is coming from another dimension.

This is a very good and important point. Just needed to point that out.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But wouldn't the barrier that is the tank, prevent the spell from leaving from the mage to the designated point?

Nope, the Mage Sight Security System (or Mage Sight Goggles) move the Origin Point of the spell to the Point the Imaging Device terminates at. At least in theory, which is what allows them to function as they do.

[sabs]

Nope, the Mage Sight Security System (or Mage Sight Goggles) move the Origin Point of the spell to the Point the Imaging Device terminates at. At least in theory, which is what allows them to function as they do.

See I think that Mage Sight Goggles work with direct spells, but by a strict RAW, they can't possibly work with Indirect spells.

Reaction. Indirect Combat spells generate
a spell construct at the point of origin (the caster) which travels
down the mystic link to the chosen target (see Choose a Target, p. 183),
whereupon it discharges and the effect defined in the spell description
manifests. The spell traverses the distance between the caster and the
target near instantly, but travels over the physical or astral plane to do
so only to take effect when it “hits”. Hence, Indirect Spells are handled
as ranged attacks and require a physically solid target or astrally active
target to hit. As they travel down the link to the chosen target such effects
may be impeded by physical obstacles or mana barriers. They may
impact transparent obstacles (such as glass) and do not “bounce” off
reflective surfaces used for line of sight. Instead the spell takes effect at
the point of contact with an obstructing barrier

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

See I think that Mage Sight Goggles work with direct spells, but by a strict RAW, they can't possibly work with Indirect spells.

Indeed, you have a very valid point, and I can be on board with that.

[Inncubi]

I think its about particular spell description, direct combat spells and indirect combat spells.

Inirect combat spells: Are blocked by the tank. If I remember well, even cover protects against them. These are no-no.
Direct combat spells: These do come form another dimension. Weep and cry.
Particular spell: Touch spells, obviously no. Some use the caster as center to extend a radius of effect. Clearly these are useless in long range casting via optical magnifications.

Mage snipers are a deadly concept. One that I have toyed with, in SR2, a sniper fire sorcery adept, and once a player made one in SR3. They are /scaaaary/.
He was a full magician and would setup a Sporting Rifle, with a mag 3 scope, a Sniper Rifle, mag 3 scope as well, and have an air elemental on hand. The elemental would raise him on a 2 meter by 2 meter board he'd set as a static shooting platform and would provide long range cover for the group. Movement and safety above earth were the elemental's responsibility. A mage could wave the elemental wiped out? Yes. It never happened, even though I tried.
He would pick rifle or spell according to the situation and needs. It was pretty awesome.

Now, the use of optical amplification and binoculars in attaining LOS is something that comes from an old tradition in SR. I remember when in Corporate Security Handbook the first mage goggles appeared, and the Shadows trembled because now, mages in secure rooms would be picking up on your team without you being able to respond... they also did overwatch through cameras. Talk about scary drek!

Even in the Street Samurai catalog, optical and electronic magnification were differentiated in cybereyes, just for this.

I allow it, because its been the way I've always played SR.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I only read the very beginning of this thread, but I assume someone mentioned the simple solution of *not* letting a scope negate *all* range penalties?

Well, if the Target is moving, it takes continual "Take Aim" actions just to reduce to Short Range as you re-adjust, and you would never get the "Aiming" bonus at all, as you must constantly adjust for movement. So, you (the Shooter) loses any potential bonus from Aiming or Calling the Shot. Which is a big Deal compared to an Immobile target, where these actions can make a huge difference.

[Yerameyahu]

The Mage Sight/fireball problem only shows that you can't trust RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree, Tymeaus, but that's not great as a solution to the stated problem. If the problem is 'Joe Random with a scope shouldn't snipe', then simply removing or weakening the scope-negates-everything better addresses that. It's far from a perfect solution, certainly. :/

[CanRay]

So, in essence (Without the cost of essence) a Mage Sniper can be like a regular sniper, only using Mind Bullets, no Fireballs in the middle of a Squad.

Sniper, not Mortar Team.

[X-Kalibur]

So, in essence (Without the cost of essence) a Mage Sniper can be like a regular sniper, only using Mind Bullets, no Fireballs in the middle of a Squad.

Sniper, not Mortar Team.

But can he kill a yak, from 300 yards away, with his mind bullets?

[CanRay]

But can he kill a yak, from 300 yards away, with his mind bullets?

Curvature of the Earth with his Mind Bullets!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But can he kill a yak, from 300 yards away, with his mind bullets?

If he can see them, sure...

[X-Kalibur]

Not a single bite on the Tenacious D line? Oh fine, be that way...

[sunnyside]

I actually had an idea of a Shaman that had Photography as a hobby, and used a traditional SLR Camera (Film, Mirrors and Lenses, no digital stuff), and could use a Telephoto Lense for long-range magic. A Fake SIN with a Photographer's License, maybe "Freelance Photographer" as a Day Job for a cover, with a history of taking shots of city scenes from rooftops.

Watched Speed Grapher have we?

[CanRay]

Not a single bite on the Tenacious D line? Oh fine, be that way...

Too easy.

Watched Speed Grapher have we?

Actually, no. I got the idea walking past a camera shop, and remembering my days in photography class.

[Mardrax]

Actually indirect combat spells with a set of binoculars to aid casting should be fine, since it's just a small barrier in front of the eyes, while the spell effect doesn't necessarily originate there. Otherwise though, you can still Powerball for AoE and get your magical mortar anyway.
Mage goggles would be tricky as you'll generally be using the fiber to get around obstacles, which would be in the way.

[Fortinbras]

How are the binoculars not "between the caster and the target?"

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, 'optical' optics for magic are totally normal. Also contacts, glasses, helmets, etc. The problem is the canon that you can cast fireball *through* the fiber optics, potentially far away and definitely out of LOS with any part of the mage's body. Oh well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The simple solution is that you *can't*. Poor mages, they'll have to settle for stunbolt and powerball… like they already planned to.

Back on topic, I think they best solution I heard (perhaps half-heard?) was to make sniping a martial art. If you remove the ability of optics to fully negate ranges, and use MA benefits to add that back in, it seems to solve the problem. Is it expensive enough? (I think probably 'yes'.)

[KarmaInferno]

How are the binoculars not "between the caster and the target?"

Because the rules say so?

You want bad, imagine an entire building with Mage Sight cables running to every room and hallway.

Spells coming out of the damn walls, man!



-k

[CanRay]

You want bad, imagine an entire building with Mage Sight cables running to every room and hallway.

Spells coming out of the damn walls, man!
-k

That's actually the design in a security handbook, IIRC, although there's a limit to how far Mage Sight Goggles work.

Still...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's actually the design in a security handbook, IIRC, although there's a limit to how far Mage Sight Goggles work.

Still...

Mage Sight Goggles, Yes, But the Mage Sight Security System extendss that to some pretty impressive ranges (Couple of kilometers per Fiber-Optic strand if I remember correctly)

[Kerenshara]

Then you haven't made a sniper. You've made an Olympic grade sharpshooter. That's it.

The spotter role, as someone has mentioned, has been mostly negated through smart guns. The values of a spotter that are retained are ancillary to taking a shot. Guarding the sniper's back and providing a much more appropriate weapon for engaging multiple foes (assault rifle) are about all that remains.

Not going to debate on the gear vs. human argument. It's a matter of opinion. In combat, there's this odd thing called "workload". The shooter stays on target while the other person analyzes the shot and calls adjustments. And the extra eyes are invaluable because the scope on the gun usually has a much narrower angle of view than the spotter's optics. But like I said, the extra couple dice aren't worth arguing about here.

There's zero reason to add logic in. Those "small" adjustments are quite huge when you consider that millimeter adjustments turn into multiple inches down range and can be the difference between a miss and a hit. Fine motor control (Agility) is completely appropriate.

This isn't about the physical shooting. Sniping Skill was suggested as an adjunct to pulling the trigger. Actual SKILED sniping has more to do with analyzing variables and making adjustments to the weapon/optics and choosing Kenucky Windage and lead based on what you KNOW. If you KNOW the distance (either by skilled observation or mechanical means), humidity, barometric pressure, temperature, weapon status (cold bore, early shots, continuous fire), wind speed and direction OVER THE LINE OF FLIGHT, target movement speed, BC of the round, muzzle velocity of the round and umpteen other factors you can essentially eliminate all the things which make getting the round where you want it at great distances so problematical. Doing all that takes a lot of very fast number crunching, and the more experienced, the sniper, the faster and more reliable the answers.

I did like the mention about WILlpower above. Control of breathing is absolutely critical at extreme ranges. And if you read the descriptions of the Attributes, I'd say long range braced shooting would be REACTION because it's actually more hand-eye co-ordination than gross motor. But that's a separate argument entirely.

-Krerenshara

P.S.: With the 20-dice cap in place, the DP mods capped at [Skill + Attribute] and hits capped at [Skill x2], being an Awakened sniper doesn't offer a lot more help. You're just more likely to get to the full dice pool more easily than the mundane fellow who has to rely on purely mundane sollutions.

[Whipstitch]

And if you read the descriptions of the Attributes, I'd say long range braced shooting would be REACTION because it's actually more hand-eye co-ordination than gross motor.

This justification seems precisely backwards to me. Agility is described as your fine motor control while Reaction is poorly defined other than a vague mention of your reflexes. Frankly, I'd recommend largely leaving the agility and reaction descriptions largely out of the conversation, since I get the strong impression that Quickness was given the ax and Reaction changed from being a derived stat largely to keep SR4 from having one almighty uber attribute that everyone felt practically obligated to take. Agility is plenty strong as it is, after all, given that attributes aren't just used to determine a few derived stats and to modify skill costs.