What are the charisma and logic ratings of an average troll or ork? Options

[Garvel]

What is the logic rating of a totally average troll?
I always thought that it would be 2. I thought an average troll is less intelligent than an average human, who has logic 3, and that logic 3 would be an "Improved" rating for a troll instead of a "Typical". But after some discussion here on dumpshock i got some doubts.

I was used to thinking this way from SR3, but the effect of a negative Metatype-attribute-modifiers changed from SR3 to SR4. In SR4 it only reduces the maximum limit, which doesn't effect a logic rating of 3 at all. An troll pays the same BP or karma to raise his logic to 3 as a human does. Was this change on purpose to make average trolls and orks as intelligent as the other metatypes, and only geniuses are rarer among them?

In the SR4A book I can only find "typical" attribute ratings for humans on page 67.

1 Weak
2 Underdeveloped
3 Typical
4 Improved
5 Superior
6 Max unmodified human

But I can't find an explicit value for an "typical" troll or ork attribute rating.
On page 73 it says:

Though stereotyped as stupid or frightening, trolls are no less intelligent or well mannered than other metatypes, though they do suffer from disproportionally high illiteracy and poverty rates.

This would suggest strongly that their "typical" logic is 3, but on the other hand on page 66 it says:

They are a lot tougher (much higher Body), less agile (lower Agility), much stronger (higher Strength), less charismatic (lower Charisma), less perceptive (lower Intuition), and less acute (lower Logic) than humans.

In my understanding this says the exact opposite of the pervious quoute (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

When I look at sample characters and connections, they don't seem to have lower logic attributes than other races, but then again they are just examples and aren't thought to be total average.

I wrote this for logic, but I would also like to know for other attributes of metahumans what is "typical", "Improved" or "underdeveloped".
What is the typical charisma rating for trolls or orks? What is the typical body and stength rating of a pixi? Is the typical strength for a troll 7 or is it less, since he doesn't have more karma than a human does to improve it?

How do you play it in your game? Is an ork runner PC with logic 2 and charisma 2 a bit stupid and a bit urgly for an ork or is he perfect average for an ork in this aspect.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What is the logic rating of a totally average troll?
I always thought that it would be 2. I thought an average troll is less intelligent than an average human, who has logic 3, and that logic 3 would be an "Improved" rating for a troll instead of a "Typical". But after some discussion here on dumpshock i got some doubts.

I was used to thinking this way from SR3, but the effect of a negative Metatype-attribute-modifiers changed from SR3 to SR4. In SR4 it only reduces the maximum limit, which doesn't effect a logic rating of 3 at all. An troll pays the same BP or karma to raise his logic to 3 as a human does. Was this change on purpose to make average trolls and orks as intelligent as the other metatypes, and only geniuses are rarer among them?

In the SR4A book I can only find "typical" attribute ratings for humans on page 67.

But I can't find an explicit value for an "typical" troll or ork attribute rating.
On page 73 it says:

This would suggest strongly that their "typical" logic is 3, but on the other hand on page 66 it says:

In my understanding this says the exact opposite of the pervious quoute (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

When I look at sample characters and connections, they don't seem to have lower logic attributes than other races, but then again they are just examples and aren't thought to be total average.

I wrote this for logic, but I would also like to know for other attributes of metahumans what is "typical", "Improved" or "underdeveloped".
What is the typical charisma rating for trolls or orks? What is the typical body and stength rating of a pixi? Is the typical strength for a troll 7 or is it less, since he doesn't have more karma than a human does to improve it?

How do you play it in your game? Is an ork runner PC with logic 2 and charisma 2 a bit stupid and a bit urgly for an ork or is he perfect average for an ork in this aspect.

Well, Trolls and Orks do not suffer a penalty to the Average, but will generally never reach the intellectual or charasmatic heights of a Human...
Simplest reading of the rules. Of course, you could always take their racial penalty and apply it to avererage human stats to get "Average Metatype stats. That is pretty easy as well. But I tend towards the first solution.

[Inncubi]

What is the logic rating of a totally average troll?
I always thought that it would be 2. I thought an average troll is less intelligent than an average human, who has logic 3, and that logic 3 would be an "Improved" rating for a troll instead of a "Typical". But after some discussion here on dumpshock i got some doubts.

I cannot give you a RAW point of view on the matter, because, well, you gave the contradictory quotes in your post. And both are RAW.

In my games, however, Orks and Trolls are not "dumber" than humans. Trolls and Orks are as intelligent as humans, elves and dwarves, but because of environment -poverty- or genetics -I don't like the last one, because it would give the natural superiority argument validity, but its one used by Humanis members in my campaign-, or whatever you want, they have statistically less "geniuses" amidst their population than other races.

In other words, they tend to deviate less from the norm than humans, hence they have higher number of their population in the "median" of the curve.

Edit: Disclaimer, I forgot the English term in statistics for the area where the majority tends to fall in a bell curve when you group a determined population. I use "median" because in Spanish its "la media". Any corrections on the matter will be appreciated.

Edit2: I house rule that the average number is 2 for attributes. Hence average orks, trolls, humans, dwarves and elves have logic ratings of 2. But simply replace 2 by 3, and you've adapted it to your campaign.

[Garvel]

Thanks for the answers.

Well, Trolls and Orks do not suffer a penalty to the Average, but will generally never reach the intellectual or charasmatic heights of a Human...
Simplest reading of the rules. Of course, you could always take their racial penalty and apply it to avererage human stats to get "Average Metatype stats. That is pretty easy as well. But I tend towards the first solution.

Yes, both solutions would be viable, but i hoped to find one "right" answer with this thread, that is the official view of the Devs or at least the majority of the players. I hope that some more players answer, so that a trend is visible. Or that someone quotes a rule part that I didn't find, that clarifies it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The problem with the first solution is that pixis would end up with a typical strength and body rating of 3 this way. I feel more like the typical rating should be 1. Even 2 sounds to high to me.

In my games, however, Orks and Trolls are not "dumber" than humans. Trolls and Orks are as intelligent as humans, elves and dwarves, but because of environment -poverty- or genetics -I don't like the last one, because it would give the natural superiority argument validity, but its one used by Humanis members in my campaign-,

The Humanis Policlub Goon Squad has only logic 1, so even with 2 logic the metahumans would still be superior to them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thanks for the answers.

Yes, both solutions would be viable, but i hoped to find one "right" answer with this thread, that is the official view of the Devs or at least the majority of the players. I hope that some more players answer, so that a trend is visible. Or that someone quotes a rule part that I didn't find, that clarifies it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The problem with the first solution is that pixis would end up with a typical strength and body rating of 3 this way. I feel more like the typical rating should be 1. Even 2 sounds to high to me.

True, and I understand the problems. In previous editions, Averages were reduced based upon the penalties of the race (You had to buy to Average (3) just to have a 1 in Charisma for Trolls for example)

[Yerameyahu]

It's almost like the writers disagreed and didn't work it out, but that'd be crazy… right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If they can't get as high, that *probably* means that their average is also lower, all things being equal. There are lots of ways the distribution could work out, but it's easiest to assume a normal-ish distribution. In addition, it doesn't matter if they're limited genetically or by upbringing, because attributes in SR4 are inextricably 'natural' *and* 'environmental' at the same time. If most orks have a crappy upbringing, that still means their average is lower.

[Makki]

mathematically their average is lower.
among x humans there will be some with a 6 attribute. assuming a slightly to the left shifted bell curve. the average ends up at 3 (according to RAW) instead of 3.5
assume the same curve for all orks, the average will be at 2.5 instead of 3.

[Adarael]

The mode of their intelligence is probably 2-3, as any other metatype, however the mean will trend lower due to lack of high-value LOG, INT and CHA to offset the lows, such as would occur in humans.

It's personally my opinion that you don't penalize metatypes hit with negatives any more than you maximize the stats they have a bonus on: Trolls have a lower *cap*, but not an actual penalty, while with Strength or Body they have a bonus AND a higher cap. But I'm also of this opinion because if you don't do this, Trolls are non-functional as sentient beings, so hey.

[CanRay]

Depends on where they're brought up and how they're brought up, just like a Human.

The penalty to Charisma to Orks and Trolls is due to their voices, which tend to come out deep, slightly slurred, and emotionless due to the nature of their voice boxes and tusks. Logic, I'm not too sure on, but I put it down to changes in hormones against the "Human Norm".

That said, one of my favorite NPCs is a Troll Lawyer, and he does a DAMNED good job. He also runs a few businesses in Seattle, one of which is in the warehouse where he has his Law Offices in the top floor of. They build affordable Troll and Ork-tough furniture, using rehabilitated gang members and parolees as labor. All legal, all on the up-and-up.

[Yerameyahu]

Voice, skin, shape, instincts, culture, stereotypes are all involved in whatever 'Charisma' is. Logic… they're dumber. The point is, some metatypes have a lower max on stats, and a higher one on others. It's not about injustice or anything.

[Yerameyahu]

Double.

[CanRay]

Voice, skin, shape, instincts, culture, stereotypes are all involved in whatever 'Charisma' is. Logic… they're dumber. The point is, some metatypes have a lower max on stats, and a higher one on others. It's not about injustice or anything.

Ork and Troll culture are stolen from Rap Culture.

No idea what the hell Dwarf Culture is.

Laugh my hoop of at "Elven Culture", which is just a bastardization of Celtic.

'Course, that's from a human point of view. Blood breeder that I am. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Apathy]

Since there is no conclusive RAW on it, you'll never get a universal consensus on Dumpshock. We don't even have a consensus on what the average logic for a plain human is. Some people say human average is 3, but others (including myself) say that the average human clerk is a 3 and the average human dockworker is a 2, which would make the human mean and mode somewhere around 2.5 plus or minus a bit. Since [I believe] the majority of trolls are in manual labor they'd be 2's as well, but without as many intellectually-employed trolls to bring the average up, they'd be closer to a flat 2.0. YMMV

[Yerameyahu]

What's your point, CanRay? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My point was that voice is certainly not the whole story, as you matter-of-factly told us.

[CanRay]

Were the Dwarves out getting Pizza when stealing Cultures was going around?

[Yerameyahu]

I think the canon fluff is that dwarves choose to fit in. All the racial cultures are basically artificial and chosen, as you said.

[CanRay]

Yeah, and even then, you get groups that just try to fit in.

My Elven Wheelman, Nas, for example hates the "Elven Culture" and sees it for the BS it is. If anyone was to talk to him in Sperethiel, he'd smack them upside the head and say, "Speak American, damnit! I'm from TEXAS!" He does know Aztlaner Spanish, however, as his family farm is right on the (New) border of Texas and Aztlan.

I'm sure there's Orks and Trolls that are the same way, and other Elves as well.

[Yerameyahu]

But, they'll take the listed Charisma limits regardless. Society is like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Of course, Nas still looks damn fine! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Or so his boyfriend tells him.

[phlapjack77]

Yeah, and even then, you get groups that just try to fit in.

My Elven Wheelman, Nas, for example hates the "Elven Culture" and sees it for the BS it is. If anyone was to talk to him in Sperethiel, he'd smack them upside the head and say, "Speak American, damnit! I'm from TEXAS!" He does know Aztlaner Spanish, however, as his family farm is right on the (New) border of Texas and Aztlan.

I'm sure there's Orks and Trolls that are the same way, and other Elves as well.

hehe - "speak American" - only people from Texas would say that

</ducks>

[CanRay]

hehe - "speak American" - only people from Texas would say that

I've had people from five different states (No, I don't remember them) compliment me on how well I learned to "Speak American" after they found out I was Canadian. "Although, you do sound like a Yankee.".

[Yerameyahu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_You_Speak_American%3F

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

hehe - "speak American" - only people from Texas would say that

</ducks>

Hey, Texas is a Damn Fine State... What's wrong with those of us that hale from there? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

No time to list it all here.

[CanRay]

Yeah, sorry, folks in the USA mostly speak Mexican-Spanish. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Sorry, couldn't help it.

Seriously, the language differences from various places can be quite distinct. "English" in Canada is mostly just called "English" (With the exception of "Newfie" from Newfoundland, which has a lot of other parts from older languages, as I understand it.). The various forms of French that can be found in Canada, however, are quite exceptional, and some places are quite... Arrogant about people that don't pronounce French "Properly".

Even to Parisians.

The two major ones that are fairly decent to deal with, and you'll experience if you come to Canada are French-Canadian (Found in Ontario, Southern Quebec, and a bit of Manitoba.), and Acadian-French, found mostly in the Maritimes (The Provincial Islands on the East Coast.), who are related in lingual and cultural manners to the Cajuns of Louisiana, and can be found in parts of Maine, apparently.

About the worst you'll have to deal with when talking to a French-Canadian is pronouncing their name. It will be the French pronunciation almost always, and they can get pretty insulted if you Anglicize it. Some will be decent about it if you're obviously not a local, but some will be put off not matter how much. English people living with large populations of French-Canadians will typically pronounce any name with a French accent, and it was one of the hardest things I had to break when I worked Tech Support for the US.

Dealing with Tech Support in the USA, I learned to never take a person at their voice or accent. A slack-jawed yokel could be just as good, if not better, a computer tech than me and just have a problem with the software given by the company (Which was garbage), while the most cultured and refined voice could hide a complete and utter idiot who couldn't figure out where the electricity came from. I'm sure the same thing applies to Canada.