What is the logic rating of a totally average troll?
I always thought that it would be 2. I thought an average troll is less intelligent than an average human, who has logic 3, and that logic 3 would be an "Improved" rating for a troll instead of a "Typical". But after some discussion here on dumpshock i got some doubts.

I was used to thinking this way from SR3, but the effect of a negative Metatype-attribute-modifiers changed from SR3 to SR4. In SR4 it only reduces the maximum limit, which doesn't effect a logic rating of 3 at all. An troll pays the same BP or karma to raise his logic to 3 as a human does. Was this change on purpose to make average trolls and orks as intelligent as the other metatypes, and only geniuses are rarer among them?

In the SR4A book I can only find "typical" attribute ratings for humans on page 67.

But I can't find an explicit value for an "typical" troll or ork attribute rating.
On page 73 it says:

This would suggest strongly that their "typical" logic is 3, but on the other hand on page 66 it says:

In my understanding this says the exact opposite of the pervious quoute

When I look at sample characters and connections, they don't seem to have lower logic attributes than other races, but then again they are just examples and aren't thought to be total average.

I wrote this for logic, but I would also like to know for other attributes of metahumans what is "typical", "Improved" or "underdeveloped".
What is the typical charisma rating for trolls or orks? What is the typical body and stength rating of a pixi? Is the typical strength for a troll 7 or is it less, since he doesn't have more karma than a human does to improve it?

How do you play it in your game? Is an ork runner PC with logic 2 and charisma 2 a bit stupid and a bit urgly for an ork or is he perfect average for an ork in this aspect.

Well, Trolls and Orks do not suffer a penalty to the Average, but will generally never reach the intellectual or charasmatic heights of a Human...
Simplest reading of the rules. Of course, you could always take their racial penalty and apply it to avererage human stats to get "Average Metatype stats. That is pretty easy as well. But I tend towards the first solution.

I cannot give you a RAW point of view on the matter, because, well, you gave the contradictory quotes in your post. And both are RAW.

In my games, however, Orks and Trolls are not "dumber" than humans. Trolls and Orks are as intelligent as humans, elves and dwarves, but because of environment -poverty- or genetics -I don't like the last one, because it would give the natural superiority argument validity, but its one used by Humanis members in my campaign-, or whatever you want, they have statistically less "geniuses" amidst their population than other races.

In other words, they tend to deviate less from the norm than humans, hence they have higher number of their population in the "median" of the curve.

Edit: Disclaimer, I forgot the English term in statistics for the area where the majority tends to fall in a bell curve when you group a determined population. I use "median" because in Spanish its "la media". Any corrections on the matter will be appreciated.

Edit2: I house rule that the average number is 2 for attributes. Hence average orks, trolls, humans, dwarves and elves have logic ratings of 2. But simply replace 2 by 3, and you've adapted it to your campaign.

Thanks for the answers.

Yes, both solutions would be viable, but i hoped to find one "right" answer with this thread, that is the official view of the Devs or at least the majority of the players. I hope that some more players answer, so that a trend is visible. Or that someone quotes a rule part that I didn't find, that clarifies it.

The problem with the first solution is that pixis would end up with a typical strength and body rating of 3 this way. I feel more like the typical rating should be 1. Even 2 sounds to high to me.


The Humanis Policlub Goon Squad has only logic 1, so even with 2 logic the metahumans would still be superior to them

True, and I understand the problems. In previous editions, Averages were reduced based upon the penalties of the race (You had to buy to Average (3) just to have a 1 in Charisma for Trolls for example)

It's almost like the writers disagreed and didn't work it out, but that'd be crazy… right?

If they can't get as high, that *probably* means that their average is also lower, all things being equal. There are lots of ways the distribution could work out, but it's easiest to assume a normal-ish distribution. In addition, it doesn't matter if they're limited genetically or by upbringing, because attributes in SR4 are inextricably 'natural' *and* 'environmental' at the same time. If most orks have a crappy upbringing, that still means their average is lower.

mathematically their average is lower.
among x humans there will be some with a 6 attribute. assuming a slightly to the left shifted bell curve. the average ends up at 3 (according to RAW) instead of 3.5
assume the same curve for all orks, the average will be at 2.5 instead of 3.

The mode of their intelligence is probably 2-3, as any other metatype, however the mean will trend lower due to lack of high-value LOG, INT and CHA to offset the lows, such as would occur in humans.

It's personally my opinion that you don't penalize metatypes hit with negatives any more than you maximize the stats they have a bonus on: Trolls have a lower *cap*, but not an actual penalty, while with Strength or Body they have a bonus AND a higher cap. But I'm also of this opinion because if you don't do this, Trolls are non-functional as sentient beings, so hey.

Depends on where they're brought up and how they're brought up, just like a Human.

The penalty to Charisma to Orks and Trolls is due to their voices, which tend to come out deep, slightly slurred, and emotionless due to the nature of their voice boxes and tusks. Logic, I'm not too sure on, but I put it down to changes in hormones against the "Human Norm".

That said, one of my favorite NPCs is a Troll Lawyer, and he does a DAMNED good job. He also runs a few businesses in Seattle, one of which is in the warehouse where he has his Law Offices in the top floor of. They build affordable Troll and Ork-tough furniture, using rehabilitated gang members and parolees as labor. All legal, all on the up-and-up.

Voice, skin, shape, instincts, culture, stereotypes are all involved in whatever 'Charisma' is. Logic… they're dumber. The point is, some metatypes have a lower max on stats, and a higher one on others. It's not about injustice or anything.

Double.

Ork and Troll culture are stolen from Rap Culture.

No idea what the hell Dwarf Culture is.

Laugh my hoop of at "Elven Culture", which is just a bastardization of Celtic.

'Course, that's from a human point of view. Blood breeder that I am.

Since there is no conclusive RAW on it, you'll never get a universal consensus on Dumpshock. We don't even have a consensus on what the average logic for a plain human is. Some people say human average is 3, but others (including myself) say that the average human clerk is a 3 and the average human dockworker is a 2, which would make the human mean and mode somewhere around 2.5 plus or minus a bit. Since [I believe] the majority of trolls are in manual labor they'd be 2's as well, but without as many intellectually-employed trolls to bring the average up, they'd be closer to a flat 2.0. YMMV

What's your point, CanRay? My point was that voice is certainly not the whole story, as you matter-of-factly told us.

Were the Dwarves out getting Pizza when stealing Cultures was going around?

I think the canon fluff is that dwarves choose to fit in. All the racial cultures are basically artificial and chosen, as you said.

Yeah, and even then, you get groups that just try to fit in.

My Elven Wheelman, Nas, for example hates the "Elven Culture" and sees it for the BS it is. If anyone was to talk to him in Sperethiel, he'd smack them upside the head and say, "Speak American, damnit! I'm from TEXAS!" He does know Aztlaner Spanish, however, as his family farm is right on the (New) border of Texas and Aztlan.

I'm sure there's Orks and Trolls that are the same way, and other Elves as well.

But, they'll take the listed Charisma limits regardless. Society is like that.

Of course, Nas still looks damn fine! Or so his boyfriend tells him.

hehe - "speak American" - only people from Texas would say that

</ducks>

I've had people from five different states (No, I don't remember them) compliment me on how well I learned to "Speak American" after they found out I was Canadian. "Although, you do sound like a Yankee.".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_You_Speak_American%3F

Hey, Texas is a Damn Fine State... What's wrong with those of us that hale from there?

No time to list it all here.

Yeah, sorry, folks in the USA mostly speak Mexican-Spanish. Sorry, couldn't help it.

Seriously, the language differences from various places can be quite distinct. "English" in Canada is mostly just called "English" (With the exception of "Newfie" from Newfoundland, which has a lot of other parts from older languages, as I understand it.). The various forms of French that can be found in Canada, however, are quite exceptional, and some places are quite... Arrogant about people that don't pronounce French "Properly".

Even to Parisians.

The two major ones that are fairly decent to deal with, and you'll experience if you come to Canada are French-Canadian (Found in Ontario, Southern Quebec, and a bit of Manitoba.), and Acadian-French, found mostly in the Maritimes (The Provincial Islands on the East Coast.), who are related in lingual and cultural manners to the Cajuns of Louisiana, and can be found in parts of Maine, apparently.

About the worst you'll have to deal with when talking to a French-Canadian is pronouncing their name. It will be the French pronunciation almost always, and they can get pretty insulted if you Anglicize it. Some will be decent about it if you're obviously not a local, but some will be put off not matter how much. English people living with large populations of French-Canadians will typically pronounce any name with a French accent, and it was one of the hardest things I had to break when I worked Tech Support for the US.

Dealing with Tech Support in the USA, I learned to never take a person at their voice or accent. A slack-jawed yokel could be just as good, if not better, a computer tech than me and just have a problem with the software given by the company (Which was garbage), while the most cultured and refined voice could hide a complete and utter idiot who couldn't figure out where the electricity came from. I'm sure the same thing applies to Canada.

Those people all probably were from Texas, but didn't want to admit it. The Yankee comment almost seals the deal.





I'm not messing with Texas...

<backs away slowly>

Southern States and the Bible Belt, I remember that. Maybe one was Texas, but no guarantee.

Although one nice Baptist Preacher complimented me on my speaking ability and ability to make myself clear and understood no matter the difficulty of the situation. I was quite complimented.

I introduced myself in one call, and instantly got, "ARE YEW A GAWD-DAMNED YANKEE?" To which I instantly and angrily replied, "No, Sir, I most certainly am NOT!"

...

"Whall, all right then, you're good in muh book."

One of the best calls I ever had. And I didn't even have to lie.

Unfortunately, many people in the South are like that

Drives the rest of us crazy with the stereotyping. At least I'm not from Texas

Considering that actual Yankees I also had to deal with, I don't blame them.

Anyhow, as for Ork and Elf culture and how realistic/fake it is... It all comes down to individual groups. Some will take the "Orkspoitation" bit completely. Some elves will go into "Their Ancient Culture", and some will just snort and live in the culture they were raised in, or that they think they came from. Just like people do today.

Just like idiot white kids from the suburbs thinking their Gangsta. *Headdesk*

Well, that is definitely your loss...

You're thinking of "wiggers".

Actually, for the guy I was thinking of, that would have been a compliment.

Many cajuns are descended from acadians removed from Canada (more accurately Acadia, the frontier area near northern Maine) and moved to Louisiana when the british took control of the then french colonies there. They're mostly descended from colonist from Anjou, Maine and Touraine (western France), while those from Quebec were mostly from Paris, Bretany and Normandy (northern center and northwest).
Which means they spoke slightly different french dialects and those differences surivived to this day.

Every Texan has to speak a little Spanish just to order a hamburger.
Don't Mess With Texas is an anti-littering campaign.

Proving that Canadians and Texans are, at the very least, the most polite amongst us.

Well bless your heart. I guess we all can't be so lucky...
The most Confederate battle flags(the Stars & Bars most people think was the flag of the Confederacy) I ever saw in one place was in Indiana. At a PTA meeting. I've been to NASCAR rallies that had less offensive bumper stickers. So chaulk one up to ignorance not being geographically exclusive.
And in case you were wondering, yes, the irony was lost on them.

Yeah, I remember that slogan from my childhood. My wording was intentional


I could be missing a big zooming sound of the plane going over my head, but it seems you're a little offended here? I apologize if so. If it helps, I'm from the South too, so I don't really mean any of this

That doesn't sound so wrong to me. An average human engineer would have logic 4 then. And the total human average would be somewhere near 3 again. The average logic rating could depend on how often people use it in their everyday life. And remember that "average" still means that there will be exeptions. Doc workers and engineers with logic 3 won't be that unusual.

That there isn't a clear official standpoint on what a typical metahuman attribute is, seems to be a problem to me. Something like that is important when determining how your metahuman character is seen by others.
When I build a troll sam, and I don't care about his charisma dice, but think that his charisma shouldn't stand out from other trolls, it's important what the average is.

["Maximum rating" + ("Minimum rating" - 1)]/2 rounded down, could work to determine average metahuman stats.

At least pixis would end up with a typical strength and body of 1 this way.

And trolls would still have a typical charisma of 2. (1 seemed a bit too low to me anyway.)

Not offended. That's simply an aside about dumb rednecks not being confined to the South. Besides, I prefaced it with "Bless your heart," which overcomes a myriad of grievances.
Unless you too have a Confederate Flag bumper sticker and live in the north, in which case I'm more confounded than offended.

I've always followed the principle that they are just as intelligent and charismatic as everyone else but that they have a few disadvantages.

Intelligence
Orc and Troll intelligence is just the same as everyone else but due to their metatype and limited lifespan as compared to other metatypes they very seldom reach their peak potential.

So there are fewer geniuses (starting with INT 4-5+) or professors (old grizzled scientists with a dozzen PHD's under their belt) simply because they dont ahve the time for studies and research as most others have.

Once can say that it is a social handicap as schools and institutions are not that well modified to serve orc and troll education.

Charisma
Well, not much to say there. Physical looks are still a heavy influence and orcs and trolls are not (usually) supermodel material. On the other hand they can just like everyone else be powerful orators and simply have presence and a powerful personality.

Looks can always be modified by surgery - just like today.

A famous summary of what a Yankee is:

To foreigners, a Yankee is an American.
To Americans, a Yankee is a Northerner.
To Northerners, a Yankee is an Easterner.
To Easterners, a Yankee is a New Englander.
To New Englanders, a Yankee is a Vermonter.
And in Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast.

Interesting...I'm totally not offended, but I always see the saying "Bless your heart" as a little condescending? Like, you say that to someone whose faculties aren't quite there?

Anyway, I too don't understand the Confederate Flag bumper sticker ANYWHERE, much less in the North...

Well, thank you sir. This was something that I've always wanted to know, because here in Brazil we either call americans 'gringo's (like any other foreigner) or 'ianques' and I've always wondered why americans felt offended or at least don't like the name.
The more you know...

I'm from Europe, and I always thought a Yankee is a New Yorker, because your first phrase seemed old-fashioned.
I try to get back on topic: Are there any intelligent Troll Baseball players?

Yes, but that level tends to curve downwards greatly as they keep getting beaned in the head by Troll Pitchers.

Dwarves and Trolls have their own Baseball League. There were cries of racism, but the major reason for this was "Strike Zone Concern", and the basic physiology of both Metatypes... Even the biggest conspiracy nut couldn't argue with that one for long. Elves, Humans, and Orks are all in the old skool MLB. Magic is disallowed, so no adepts, but minor cybernetics are allowed, and even required. The full details of how the game is played is in the novel "Wolf and Raven", but I think one of the Sourcebooks contradicts it.

I prefer what's in the novel.

If you look at the trolls and orks in my group you'd think the average Logic was 1 and the average Charisma 1. Then again, if you look at our group you'd think the average Charisma for any runner was 1.

They're SINless, uneducated, uncouth, Shadowrunner scum. of course they have no charisma or ability to think!

And an Intimidation Skill of "Ares Predator".

And if I have an Intimidation Skill of "Thor Shot"--that means I'm AAA.

Scared the drek out of Hawai'i.

I remember some games, where the team's hacker had more logic than all other teammembers together.
That was always a funny thought. (We were four players, and he didn't even have a Cerebral Booster.)