New player wants to play terrible character, driver/face? Options

[Laodicea]

What to do? He wants to play a driver/face. Those two things have almost no synergy with each other. He's not planning to be a rigger/face, either. Just a driver. I was thinking maybe making it a technomancer rigger/face that uses sprites + drones would have at least some synergy with the high cha.

Ideas?

This is a problem because the other players will outshine him in nearly everything.

[Makki]

why do you need synergy???? What kind of *** thinking is that???? You're saying only TMs and Cha-based awakened are allowed being Faces? And only Sams are allowed to be drivers?


it's a good build. Pilot skill + Rea doesn't cost you a lot. And Rea helps in combat ofc. As a face he doesn't want to fight, so he'll be glad to dodge well due to good Rea.
How will the others outshine him in Driving and Social encounters, if that's his specialty? Do they get extra points, so they can drive and talk, while being good at their field?

[Laodicea]

character as it stands has no rea or init enhancement.

[Critias]

Talk him into making it an adept, and watch the character get a whole lot better?

[Makki]

character as it stands has no rea or init enhancement.

than he's not a driver and the topic is wrong. Tell him a meat driver rolls Pilot skill + Rea

Edit: Yes, Adept is a good idea. Improved Reflexes for Rea, Improved Ability (Pilot), Kinesics, Improved Ability (social stuff)

[Critias]

In all honesty, just as him what his motivation for the character is. Ask him what sort of awesome stuff he pictures the character doing, and inspired by what sort of movie or comic or whatever.

Then explain to him that whatever awesome stuff he has in mind, he's going to need some enhancements to pull off. Show him the average die pool of a cop in a patrol car, in your game. Show him the average social pool of a fixer or fence or Mr. Johnson. Explain to him that unless he can hold his own, or (even better, of course) beat that, he's going to have some troubles.

If he's stuck on the "unaugmented, mundane" kick -- which happens, sometimes, players just get an idea for a plucky underdog character -- look into some of the Qualities that can help out that sort of character, and suggest a pretty high Edge. He can still make a worthwhile addition to a team. I don't think it's necessarily a "terrible character," but it'll be an uphill battle.

[Sengir]

In all honesty, just as him what his motivation for the character is.

The 7863249th "cool dudes in fast cars" flick? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But instant overlap between the two roles, skillwires are useful for both.

[Mr Clock]

Sounds like the player has the concept in mind, either their own idea or 'adapted' from somewhere, and wants to do their own thing. Personally, I don't mind players having such notions because at least then it's something that they're already invested in, which hopefully turns into a clear characterisation and good roleplaying.

But..

Show him the average die pool of a cop in a patrol car, in your game. Show him the average social pool of a fixer or fence or Mr. Johnson. Explain to him that unless he can hold his own, or (even better, of course) beat that, he's going to have some troubles.

This. And it's a fair call. In my games, the team has the freedom to do what they like. If they want to wait a week before doing a job that was meant to be done the following day, too bad. If they don't take their opposition seriously they may be hurt, even killed. And if they can't actually hold their own against other professionals in their fields, they're going to have a hard time succeeding. As a GM, I would look to explore what the player means by the concept as pitched, what they see themselves being capable of, and look to work with them to find realistic solutions.

[Laodicea]

solid advice so far. Thanks.

[Makki]

if he has a Medkit and a First Aid skill, this is the best 2nd row build possible. nothing says the whole team has to go into combat. He can just wait in the car for a fast get-away and patch up the wounds in the safe house. although, the face is going to do all the legwork, which can be like half of the evening

[Ascalaphus]

I'm not seeing the terribleness yet. Could you tell us a bit more?
- Has the player told you about what he wants to do with the character? ("Cool car chases! Yeah!")
- How familiar is the player with the game system? ("What is Reaction for anyway?")

Anyway, a Face role can be a lot of fun. In legwork-heavy games they can actually be the character that achieves the most. Often the Sam is sitting around waiting until he finally gets to do something because the Face, Hacker and Astral Projecting wizard are doing all the legwork.

Dedicated drivers are slightly anachronistic, riggers could indeed be more common. But it's very different for a player. Riggers are much more an "arm's length" way of playing; you puppeteer around you drones, instead of being in the car behind the wheel.

Sure, this character won't be a top-tier fighter, but why does he have to be? If the character has enough chances to really do his thing (legwork, (hostage) negotiation, infiltration, car chases, getaway drives), then everyone can be happy. It's just that his big moments won't be as a gunman.

It puts a responsibility on you as the GM. Maybe you should put more car chase scenes in your story? Familiarize yourself with the vehicle rules, get a decent road map of the setting - be prepared. Come up with interesting obstacles, such as how to get from X to Y and Z in too little time, or how to talk people into cooperating.

The more I think about it, the more I can picture the kind of driver/face character that would be pretty cool. He's the really savvy guy - know all the backroads, knows all the checkpoints. He knows precisely which KE patrols are on the take. He knows how much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to bribe them with (no more, no less), and he knows the treaties between the highway gangs. They respect him, he respects them. When the corps are chasing your getaway car, he can get some gangs to run interference. He also knows the weak spots of enemy vehicles. He knows smugglers and smuggling routes. He knows where the extraterritorial grounds are, and which ones will grant asylum against who. He's not a great gunman, but he knows how to drive to give the Sam a clear shot. And now and then, he's simply run over enemies.

Now, a character like that could definitely be cool In The Movie. And RPG is like a movie: the GM tries to pick the scenes that would be coolest. So if you have a good Face PC, you have more detailed social scenes. If you have a crack driver PC, you have really major car chases.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, I see players who really dislike the idea of taking role-appropriate augmentations despite being in an otherwise "traditional" runner team as being much trickier to work with than someone who merely wants to be a Face-Wheel man. Being a decent driver is really cheap in shadowrun, after all, and a good Reaction score and Dodge are common picks for most any runner, so the synergy thing isn't really a big deal. I myself have ran a mundo Face-Driver who liked to do business in his Pimped Ride and he got along just fine. He did particularly well with the sort of Barrens ganger that don't particularly value subtlety.

[KarmaInferno]

Go adept.

I'm running a face/rigger mystic adept with zero 'ware right now and the Adept part is what makes it all hang together. Dice pools in the 16 to 24 range for both vehicle and social skill sets and can cast and summon a lil bit.

Yes, the character being a pixie helps too, but it's doable even with a stock human.



-k

[Mr Clock]

The more I think about it, the more I can picture the kind of driver/face character that would be pretty cool. He's the really savvy guy - know all the backroads, knows all the checkpoints. He knows precisely which KE patrols are on the take. He knows how much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to bribe them with (no more, no less), and he knows the treaties between the highway gangs. They respect him, he respects them. When the corps are chasing your getaway car, he can get some gangs to run interference. He also knows the weak spots of enemy vehicles. He knows smugglers and smuggling routes. He knows where the extraterritorial grounds are, and which ones will grant asylum against who. He's not a great gunman, but he knows how to drive to give the Sam a clear shot. And now and then, he's simply run over enemies.

Now, a character like that could definitely be cool In The Movie. And RPG is like a movie: the GM tries to pick the scenes that would be coolest. So if you have a good Face PC, you have more detailed social scenes. If you have a crack driver PC, you have really major car chases.

Some excellent points! A little bit of a side note, but I do like the reference to The Movie. The way Shadowrun tends to lay itself out, with The Job, The Plan, The Action and The Bit Where It All Goes Wrong (But Our Heroes Prevail) works best for me when I can take a step back and look at it through a mental camera. It helps when considering who the spotlight is on, who can interact with the action, and how, whether it's worth bothering to ask for dice rolls or just say yes, and what would be fun or interesting complications to add.

[eyeBliss]

The more I think about it, the more I can picture the kind of driver/face character that would be pretty cool. He's the really savvy guy - know all the backroads, knows all the checkpoints. He knows precisely which KE patrols are on the take. He knows how much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to bribe them with (no more, no less), and he knows the treaties between the highway gangs. They respect him, he respects them. When the corps are chasing your getaway car, he can get some gangs to run interference. He also knows the weak spots of enemy vehicles. He knows smugglers and smuggling routes. He knows where the extraterritorial grounds are, and which ones will grant asylum against who. He's not a great gunman, but he knows how to drive to give the Sam a clear shot. And now and then, he's simply run over enemies.

Now, a character like that could definitely be cool In The Movie. And RPG is like a movie: the GM tries to pick the scenes that would be coolest. So if you have a good Face PC, you have more detailed social scenes. If you have a crack driver PC, you have really major car chases.

Using this as a jumping off point, I could imagine this character as a go-gang leader moving up in the world or european pretty boy grand prix driver moving down. While there isn't any gaming mechanic synergy between face and driver, the confident dare devil driver makes an ample platform for a certain kind of face.

[Laodicea]

I sat down and spent the time stating out the character a couple different ways. I've advised him of his options now, which basically consist of either 1. take more Wares 2. be an Adept 3. be a Dronomancer. Hopefully one of those three things wont break the character concept too badly for him. I will say that his character was almost perfect for a Street level game, but the group has agreed to do a Pro level game, and his character wasn't going to cut it.

Thanks all for the advice. We'll see what he decides.

[Makki]

there's a 4th choice: get 6 points of Edge.

[Jhaiisiin]

Also, consider his concept. If you let us know what it is, maybe we can help point out tweaks that the player might consider that are within that concept.

[KCKitsune]

Honestly, A Sammy should have enough social skills, that either he is the Face or is a secondary (or backup) Face. A Sammy could also be a damn good driver. His augmentation could make his pretty darn useful. Having a Sammy also being a hacker... not so much.

Finally, the "unaugmented, mundane" character... really... the word to describe him is "Target".

Heck, I have a Chaos mage with 2 fragging Essence points of 'Ware. Yes the Path of Burnout is beckoning, but I had an idea for him. I just have to pare down his backstory so it fits on one page.

[CanRay]

Built a Face. Give him a high score in Pilot Groundcraft. It's not exactly a hard build, or even that bad an idea.

My character, Nas, was one when he was in the NASCAR Circuit. Heroin abuse did a lot to damage that, however...

[Laodicea]

a rigger cop in my game has 6-8 dice for piloting. The Smuggler sample character in the book has 16ish. The original build he send me had 11.

If your nascar driving face had any less than 15 i'd say he didn't belong in nascar.

[Jhaiisiin]

Fair enough. Dice pool is only one part of the equation though. What was the concept? What was he trying to accomplish? What was his reasoning for choosing to opt out of augmentations?

These questions may seem silly or irrelevant, but they help us to figure out how to target improvements. And honestly, shouldn't be ignored by a GM. Unless it's a roll-playing group, then backstory and concept does become pointless. Biggest dicepool > all in that case.

[CanRay]

If your nascar driving face had any less than 15 i'd say he didn't belong in nascar.

12 Dice. But remember, NASCAR does NOT allow cybernetics or magic (In fact, this is the reason Nas had to leave NASCAR and take up, eventually, Shadowrunning, after a brief stint as a cab-driving heroin junkie.). So 12 dice is the max you can get. Well, OK, he has 13 now because he is allowed cybernetics being a Shadowrunner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) 14 after a few "Adventures", BTW. He's also lost the social skills he used to have due to various reasons, picking up other abilities that he felt were more appropriate.

[Laodicea]

I run a story driven game. I like for players to write a background and then stat out the character. I just like for that character to mechanically match the expectations one would have, having read the background.

[KCKitsune]

12 Dice. But remember, NASCAR does NOT allow cybernetics or magic (In fact, this is the reason Nas had to leave NASCAR and take up, eventually, Shadowrunning, after a brief stint as a cab-driving heroin junkie.). So 12 dice is the max you can get.

Actually, if you have 6 Reaction + 6 Pilot Ground craft and specialize in wheeled vehicles, you can get 14 dice.