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Laodicea
What to do? He wants to play a driver/face. Those two things have almost no synergy with each other. He's not planning to be a rigger/face, either. Just a driver. I was thinking maybe making it a technomancer rigger/face that uses sprites + drones would have at least some synergy with the high cha.

Ideas?

This is a problem because the other players will outshine him in nearly everything.
Makki
why do you need synergy???? What kind of *** thinking is that???? You're saying only TMs and Cha-based awakened are allowed being Faces? And only Sams are allowed to be drivers?


it's a good build. Pilot skill + Rea doesn't cost you a lot. And Rea helps in combat ofc. As a face he doesn't want to fight, so he'll be glad to dodge well due to good Rea.
How will the others outshine him in Driving and Social encounters, if that's his specialty? Do they get extra points, so they can drive and talk, while being good at their field?
Laodicea
character as it stands has no rea or init enhancement.
Critias
Talk him into making it an adept, and watch the character get a whole lot better?
Makki
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Mar 13 2011, 03:59 PM) *
character as it stands has no rea or init enhancement.

than he's not a driver and the topic is wrong. Tell him a meat driver rolls Pilot skill + Rea

Edit: Yes, Adept is a good idea. Improved Reflexes for Rea, Improved Ability (Pilot), Kinesics, Improved Ability (social stuff)
Critias
In all honesty, just as him what his motivation for the character is. Ask him what sort of awesome stuff he pictures the character doing, and inspired by what sort of movie or comic or whatever.

Then explain to him that whatever awesome stuff he has in mind, he's going to need some enhancements to pull off. Show him the average die pool of a cop in a patrol car, in your game. Show him the average social pool of a fixer or fence or Mr. Johnson. Explain to him that unless he can hold his own, or (even better, of course) beat that, he's going to have some troubles.

If he's stuck on the "unaugmented, mundane" kick -- which happens, sometimes, players just get an idea for a plucky underdog character -- look into some of the Qualities that can help out that sort of character, and suggest a pretty high Edge. He can still make a worthwhile addition to a team. I don't think it's necessarily a "terrible character," but it'll be an uphill battle.
Sengir
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 13 2011, 10:10 PM) *
In all honesty, just as him what his motivation for the character is.

The 7863249th "cool dudes in fast cars" flick? wink.gif

But instant overlap between the two roles, skillwires are useful for both.
Mr Clock
Sounds like the player has the concept in mind, either their own idea or 'adapted' from somewhere, and wants to do their own thing. Personally, I don't mind players having such notions because at least then it's something that they're already invested in, which hopefully turns into a clear characterisation and good roleplaying.

But..
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 13 2011, 09:10 PM) *
Show him the average die pool of a cop in a patrol car, in your game. Show him the average social pool of a fixer or fence or Mr. Johnson. Explain to him that unless he can hold his own, or (even better, of course) beat that, he's going to have some troubles.

This. And it's a fair call. In my games, the team has the freedom to do what they like. If they want to wait a week before doing a job that was meant to be done the following day, too bad. If they don't take their opposition seriously they may be hurt, even killed. And if they can't actually hold their own against other professionals in their fields, they're going to have a hard time succeeding. As a GM, I would look to explore what the player means by the concept as pitched, what they see themselves being capable of, and look to work with them to find realistic solutions.
Laodicea
solid advice so far. Thanks.
Makki
if he has a Medkit and a First Aid skill, this is the best 2nd row build possible. nothing says the whole team has to go into combat. He can just wait in the car for a fast get-away and patch up the wounds in the safe house. although, the face is going to do all the legwork, which can be like half of the evening
Ascalaphus
I'm not seeing the terribleness yet. Could you tell us a bit more?
- Has the player told you about what he wants to do with the character? ("Cool car chases! Yeah!")
- How familiar is the player with the game system? ("What is Reaction for anyway?")

Anyway, a Face role can be a lot of fun. In legwork-heavy games they can actually be the character that achieves the most. Often the Sam is sitting around waiting until he finally gets to do something because the Face, Hacker and Astral Projecting wizard are doing all the legwork.

Dedicated drivers are slightly anachronistic, riggers could indeed be more common. But it's very different for a player. Riggers are much more an "arm's length" way of playing; you puppeteer around you drones, instead of being in the car behind the wheel.

Sure, this character won't be a top-tier fighter, but why does he have to be? If the character has enough chances to really do his thing (legwork, (hostage) negotiation, infiltration, car chases, getaway drives), then everyone can be happy. It's just that his big moments won't be as a gunman.

It puts a responsibility on you as the GM. Maybe you should put more car chase scenes in your story? Familiarize yourself with the vehicle rules, get a decent road map of the setting - be prepared. Come up with interesting obstacles, such as how to get from X to Y and Z in too little time, or how to talk people into cooperating.

The more I think about it, the more I can picture the kind of driver/face character that would be pretty cool. He's the really savvy guy - know all the backroads, knows all the checkpoints. He knows precisely which KE patrols are on the take. He knows how much nuyen.gif to bribe them with (no more, no less), and he knows the treaties between the highway gangs. They respect him, he respects them. When the corps are chasing your getaway car, he can get some gangs to run interference. He also knows the weak spots of enemy vehicles. He knows smugglers and smuggling routes. He knows where the extraterritorial grounds are, and which ones will grant asylum against who. He's not a great gunman, but he knows how to drive to give the Sam a clear shot. And now and then, he's simply run over enemies.

Now, a character like that could definitely be cool In The Movie. And RPG is like a movie: the GM tries to pick the scenes that would be coolest. So if you have a good Face PC, you have more detailed social scenes. If you have a crack driver PC, you have really major car chases.
Whipstitch
Yeah, I see players who really dislike the idea of taking role-appropriate augmentations despite being in an otherwise "traditional" runner team as being much trickier to work with than someone who merely wants to be a Face-Wheel man. Being a decent driver is really cheap in shadowrun, after all, and a good Reaction score and Dodge are common picks for most any runner, so the synergy thing isn't really a big deal. I myself have ran a mundo Face-Driver who liked to do business in his Pimped Ride and he got along just fine. He did particularly well with the sort of Barrens ganger that don't particularly value subtlety.
KarmaInferno
Go adept.

I'm running a face/rigger mystic adept with zero 'ware right now and the Adept part is what makes it all hang together. Dice pools in the 16 to 24 range for both vehicle and social skill sets and can cast and summon a lil bit.

Yes, the character being a pixie helps too, but it's doable even with a stock human.



-k
Mr Clock
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 13 2011, 11:10 PM) *
The more I think about it, the more I can picture the kind of driver/face character that would be pretty cool. He's the really savvy guy - know all the backroads, knows all the checkpoints. He knows precisely which KE patrols are on the take. He knows how much nuyen.gif to bribe them with (no more, no less), and he knows the treaties between the highway gangs. They respect him, he respects them. When the corps are chasing your getaway car, he can get some gangs to run interference. He also knows the weak spots of enemy vehicles. He knows smugglers and smuggling routes. He knows where the extraterritorial grounds are, and which ones will grant asylum against who. He's not a great gunman, but he knows how to drive to give the Sam a clear shot. And now and then, he's simply run over enemies.

Now, a character like that could definitely be cool In The Movie. And RPG is like a movie: the GM tries to pick the scenes that would be coolest. So if you have a good Face PC, you have more detailed social scenes. If you have a crack driver PC, you have really major car chases.

Some excellent points! A little bit of a side note, but I do like the reference to The Movie. The way Shadowrun tends to lay itself out, with The Job, The Plan, The Action and The Bit Where It All Goes Wrong (But Our Heroes Prevail) works best for me when I can take a step back and look at it through a mental camera. It helps when considering who the spotlight is on, who can interact with the action, and how, whether it's worth bothering to ask for dice rolls or just say yes, and what would be fun or interesting complications to add.
eyeBliss
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 13 2011, 05:10 PM) *
The more I think about it, the more I can picture the kind of driver/face character that would be pretty cool. He's the really savvy guy - know all the backroads, knows all the checkpoints. He knows precisely which KE patrols are on the take. He knows how much nuyen.gif to bribe them with (no more, no less), and he knows the treaties between the highway gangs. They respect him, he respects them. When the corps are chasing your getaway car, he can get some gangs to run interference. He also knows the weak spots of enemy vehicles. He knows smugglers and smuggling routes. He knows where the extraterritorial grounds are, and which ones will grant asylum against who. He's not a great gunman, but he knows how to drive to give the Sam a clear shot. And now and then, he's simply run over enemies.

Now, a character like that could definitely be cool In The Movie. And RPG is like a movie: the GM tries to pick the scenes that would be coolest. So if you have a good Face PC, you have more detailed social scenes. If you have a crack driver PC, you have really major car chases.


Using this as a jumping off point, I could imagine this character as a go-gang leader moving up in the world or european pretty boy grand prix driver moving down. While there isn't any gaming mechanic synergy between face and driver, the confident dare devil driver makes an ample platform for a certain kind of face.
Laodicea
I sat down and spent the time stating out the character a couple different ways. I've advised him of his options now, which basically consist of either 1. take more Wares 2. be an Adept 3. be a Dronomancer. Hopefully one of those three things wont break the character concept too badly for him. I will say that his character was almost perfect for a Street level game, but the group has agreed to do a Pro level game, and his character wasn't going to cut it.

Thanks all for the advice. We'll see what he decides.
Makki
there's a 4th choice: get 6 points of Edge.
Jhaiisiin
Also, consider his concept. If you let us know what it is, maybe we can help point out tweaks that the player might consider that are within that concept.
KCKitsune
Honestly, A Sammy should have enough social skills, that either he is the Face or is a secondary (or backup) Face. A Sammy could also be a damn good driver. His augmentation could make his pretty darn useful. Having a Sammy also being a hacker... not so much.

Finally, the "unaugmented, mundane" character... really... the word to describe him is "Target".

Heck, I have a Chaos mage with 2 fragging Essence points of 'Ware. Yes the Path of Burnout is beckoning, but I had an idea for him. I just have to pare down his backstory so it fits on one page.
CanRay
Built a Face. Give him a high score in Pilot Groundcraft. It's not exactly a hard build, or even that bad an idea.

My character, Nas, was one when he was in the NASCAR Circuit. Heroin abuse did a lot to damage that, however...
Laodicea
a rigger cop in my game has 6-8 dice for piloting. The Smuggler sample character in the book has 16ish. The original build he send me had 11.

If your nascar driving face had any less than 15 i'd say he didn't belong in nascar.
Jhaiisiin
Fair enough. Dice pool is only one part of the equation though. What was the concept? What was he trying to accomplish? What was his reasoning for choosing to opt out of augmentations?

These questions may seem silly or irrelevant, but they help us to figure out how to target improvements. And honestly, shouldn't be ignored by a GM. Unless it's a roll-playing group, then backstory and concept does become pointless. Biggest dicepool > all in that case.
CanRay
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Mar 13 2011, 09:48 PM) *
If your nascar driving face had any less than 15 i'd say he didn't belong in nascar.

12 Dice. But remember, NASCAR does NOT allow cybernetics or magic (In fact, this is the reason Nas had to leave NASCAR and take up, eventually, Shadowrunning, after a brief stint as a cab-driving heroin junkie.). So 12 dice is the max you can get. Well, OK, he has 13 now because he is allowed cybernetics being a Shadowrunner. nyahnyah.gif 14 after a few "Adventures", BTW. He's also lost the social skills he used to have due to various reasons, picking up other abilities that he felt were more appropriate.
Laodicea
I run a story driven game. I like for players to write a background and then stat out the character. I just like for that character to mechanically match the expectations one would have, having read the background.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 13 2011, 10:29 PM) *
12 Dice. But remember, NASCAR does NOT allow cybernetics or magic (In fact, this is the reason Nas had to leave NASCAR and take up, eventually, Shadowrunning, after a brief stint as a cab-driving heroin junkie.). So 12 dice is the max you can get.

Actually, if you have 6 Reaction + 6 Pilot Ground craft and specialize in wheeled vehicles, you can get 14 dice.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 14 2011, 11:40 AM) *
Actually, if you have 6 Reaction + 6 Pilot Ground craft and specialize in wheeled vehicles, you can get 14 dice.

exceptional attribute quality = 7 Reaction nyahnyah.gif

that's assuming a human driver, of course...
Epicedion
Don't forget specializations for your Nascar driver:

Pilot Ground Vehicle (Left Turns)
Makki
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 13 2011, 10:44 PM) *
Don't forget specializations for your Nascar driver:

Pilot Ground Vehicle (Left Turns)


I thought the NASCAR driver spec looks like Pilot Ground Vehicle (Vehicle Crash Test)
Laodicea
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 13 2011, 09:40 PM) *
Actually, if you have 6 Reaction + 6 Pilot Ground craft and specialize in wheeled vehicles, you can get 14 dice.



I'm sure there's some positive quality we're not thinking of, either.
phlapjack77
NASCAR "cars", seems more like the skill would be Pilot Aircraft (Ground Driving)
CanRay
QUOTE (Makki @ Mar 13 2011, 10:48 PM) *
I thought the NASCAR driver spec looks like Pilot Ground Vehicle (Vehicle Crash Test)

Nas should have. He might have gotten out of the bottom of that wreck in better shape than he did. Of course, it was the fire that got him...
TheOOB
Explain to the player that playing a shadowrunner with no magic or 'ware is bad roleplaying. A lot of people seem to think that good roleplaying equals playing a crappy characters, which is false. In the shadows, you are either good at your job, or you are dead. There is an arms race in the criminal underworld, people are always upgrading their tech to be better than their opposition, and their opposition does the same.

A real life example, the Thompson Submachine gun was orginally rejected for use by most law-enforcement divisions, who didn't think they needed it, but when the criminals and the mob god ahold of them police upgraded to the weapon themselves. If you don't take the advantage, someone else will.

Shadowrunning is one of the most dangerous professions out there, so anyone going into that field is going to take any advantage they can, up to and including 'ware. If they don't start with 'ware, getting shot up a few times will make them reconsider.
CanRay
So, OOB, you're saying something like my "Accountant From Hell" build is "Bad Roleplaying"?

Because, from a certain point of view, what you're suggesting is more like "Roll"playing.
Cain
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 13 2011, 09:31 PM) *
So, OOB, you're saying something like my "Accountant From Hell" build is "Bad Roleplaying"?

Because, from a certain point of view, what you're suggesting is more like "Roll"playing.

No. He's saying that gimping your character is bad roleplaying, especially in a team play game where others will have to carry your weight. I'm emphasizing the "play" part of roleplay here-- you're playing a cooperative game, but not cooperating, when you run a gimped character. The same thing applies with attention whores and power gamers. They may or may not be roleplaying, but they're definitely not helping the game be more fun.

I've discovered the term "Rollplaying" only gets trotted out when someone accuses gimpy players of not contributing fully to a game. I don't want to get into a battle over it, but I will say that I've seen plenty of "rollplay" characters go on to be some of the best-played characters out there. And I can't count the number of "roleplay" characters who were so gimped, they were no fun to be around and dragged down the game for everyone else. Rollplay vs. Roleplay is a matter of personal choice and player ability, not something you can enforce.
KarmaInferno
To assume that Rollplaying and Roleplaying are mutually exclusive is a fallacy.

You can be strong in both. Or weak in both.

That said, I strongly disagree with the idea that "playing a shadowrunner with no magic or 'ware is bad roleplaying". It is entirely possible to build an effective skills-focused character with no magic or 'ware. It's harder, but doable with the right selection of qualities and gear. Remember that much cyberware can be replicated with gear, and a lot of tasks you'd do with magic can also be done using mundane tools.

A skills & gear focused character needs to do a lot more planning ahead, however. One of the great strengths of magic is that it's flexible, a caster can switch spells on the fly or summon just the right spirit for the job. The 'mundane' character will have to carry the gear or know the skills ahead of time. It's a little cliche, but think Batman. His greatest strength is in tactics and planning.




-k
CanRay
And adaptability. The first casualty is always the plan.
KarmaInferno
You plan for contingency where the plan fails.

And then you plan for if that fails.

smile.gif




-k
Glyph
A mundane character is an interesting challenge for an experienced player, and can be viable - because Shadowrun is a very tactical game. But it is usually not a good choice for a new player, who will have enough of a hard time absorbing the rules and setting.

Also, it depends on the type of campaign, and the characters played by the other players. The GM himself said the character would have been great for a low-powered campaign, but the other players were playing pros. If the other players were all playing gangers and street punks, then there would be the same problem if this player was bringing in a badass sammie with face and driving abilities.

To me, an augmented character is hardly "roll-playing" - it's playing a character who fits the setting. It is an unaugmented character who actually takes more background to justify - why is this character running the shadows, competing against people with (usually) a huge edge against him? Why has he shunned technology when it is such a logical thing for someone in such a dangerous and competitive vocation?

Critias
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 14 2011, 01:01 AM) *
No. He's saying that gimping your character is bad roleplaying, especially in a team play game where others will have to carry your weight.

Which I agree with, but what counts as "gimping your character" is very much going to vary (like so very, very, much else in Shadowrun) from game to game. A worthless piece of crap in one game, based on one GM's interpretation of how gameplay works and NPC competence levels and that sort of thing could be a powerful generalist in someone else's game.

No one wants to have a derp derp derp hanging out just dragging the group down, taking a share of the money, botching all the Infiltration checks, screwing up all the social scenes, and throwing grenades at the party in the middle of every firefight, for sure. But I disagree with the implication that every mundane, non-cybered, character is that guy (if that's an implication you were intending to make).
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 14 2011, 01:28 AM) *
No one wants to have a derp derp derp hanging out just dragging the group down...


/dev/grrrl?

smile.gif



-k
TheOOB
I just find it hard to believe that someones who job regularly includes the exchange of small lead object flying at supersonic speeds would not at some point in their career get performance enhancing 'ware, even if only a synaptic booster and muscle toner. This is a setting where cybereyes and datajacks are considered normal, and the only people who care about a little essence loss have magic. Your foes will certainly have 'ware, why shouldn't you? If you had religious or ethical concerns about 'ware, I think you're in the wrong job.

That's not to say there absolutely cannot be a 'ware-less runner(though driver is kinda a bad roll for someone without consistent access to multiple passes), but those characters would likely be super specialists in a larger team, and most certainly would not be in the line of fire if it would be at all avoided(after all, after surprise, initiative passes is the most important factor in combat). Since most runner teams have between 3 and 5 runners, it's not unfair to assume that they can all fight, and it's also not fair to make everyone else work with The Load, when most runners wouldn't be caught dead with someone who can't fight on even grounds with augmented opposition.
Whipstitch
The trickiest part is that oftentimes those players who wish to eschew augmentations are rarely any more open to making use of combat drugs either. I mean, I managed to run a character that was built around the notion of actually using Spell Knack halfway successfully, so I can say from personal experience that some fairly gimpy character concepts can be bootstrapped into something resembling competence.* But with that said, I flexed my Munchkin-Fu muscles harder on that project than I do on my "regular" sheets making up for his weaknesses, since I had to use a pinch of creativity just to make sure he could fill a niche the team was otherwise pretty hopeless in. Even then, he still wouldn't have been a good fit for a truly high-powered group. Frankly, I'd say if anything the mundo characters do worse on a large team with a decent amount of resources, since collectively a 5+ man group usually has a fair set of contacts and can get a hold of skillwires or whatever. My mundane character, by contrast, often got by through saying "Hey, I know a guy who..." whenever our 4 man group started to hit a snag.

*For those who are curious, he was built around having good social skills, 5 body, 6 Edge, Spell Knack: Influence and a Trust Fund. Being able to plant low Force magical suggestions "stealthily" through Edge uncapping is a neat trick that helped make up for the lack of things like Tailored Pheromones and the Trust Fund helped keep him in combat drugs and Immortal Flower for when things got hairy.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Makki @ Mar 13 2011, 12:58 PM) *
And only Sams are allowed to be drivers?


No one should be a "driver."

R6 Command program (easy) +2 hotsim bonus +1 commlink optimization bonus -1 to all thresholds (basically the same as +3 dice.) 3 passes.
All for less than one BP worth of gear.

It's technology.
It makes things easier and better.
Cain
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 13 2011, 09:28 PM) *
Which I agree with, but what counts as "gimping your character" is very much going to vary (like so very, very, much else in Shadowrun) from game to game. A worthless piece of crap in one game, based on one GM's interpretation of how gameplay works and NPC competence levels and that sort of thing could be a powerful generalist in someone else's game.

No one wants to have a derp derp derp hanging out just dragging the group down, taking a share of the money, botching all the Infiltration checks, screwing up all the social scenes, and throwing grenades at the party in the middle of every firefight, for sure. But I disagree with the implication that every mundane, non-cybered, character is that guy (if that's an implication you were intending to make).

I don't agree that the mundane, non-cybered character is always gimped, if that's what you mean. That said, it *is* a serious disadvantage, and not for a novice player. I've seen both magical and cybered characters that were utterly useless in Sr4.0; there's no reason for 4.5 to be any different. With the attribute and skill caps being what they are, a noncybered mundane will hit the glass ceiling much quicker.

However, someone playing a noncybered mundane might be out to gimp his character for "roleplay" reasons, which actually makes no sense. If he's playing a shadowrunner, he needs every edge he can get to survive. No team would want him, because there's nothing he can contribute. Even worse are the players who do this sort of thing so they can act all holier-than-thou, and tell you how you should play your character. I've dealt with my share of those players.
Irion
Well, you all forget about the one and only RULE OF COOL.
Meaning the normal human driver will always get away, because he is COOLER.


@KarmaInferno
QUOTE
To assume that Rollplaying and Roleplaying are mutually exclusive is a fallacy.

Not from the start. But since the rules do not stick to reason everytime, they exclude each other as soon as the "ROLLplay" solution goes againt reason, because the rules...
There is more than one Situation, where ROLL stants against Role.

In general:
Cyberware for a Face is kind of problematic. Cyberwarescanners are everywhere. And you do not want to be seen as the crazy guy with wired Reflexes.
So to start with none is not such a "bad" move, if you play realistic.
And if you insist on fights, yes the group with the focus on combat will have the edge.
But on the other hand it is close to no streatch to make "you sounded the alarm" to a death sentance for everybody with heavy cyberware or magic. (The once without might be able to blend in as civilians and be ignored by the strike team butchering the rest.)

On the other hand I could imagine CanRay "Accountant From Hell" standing with a box of flowers in the middle of the strike team searching for Runners and the only thing he gets is the direction to the office he claims he was ordered to deliver the flowers to. Well, and some heads shaking over the incompetance of regular security, who did not even see this guy enter.

If you do not look dangerous, you are not considered so. And in a world where everyone tries to keep the edge with cyberware, well the guy without cyberware is less than not dangerous. Who knows he is carrying tons a military grade hacking programms on his commlink. Because since he has no datajack, he can not be a hacker. Can he?
You might think this is unrealistic, but it is what happens evey day. In germany there is a book, written by a former homicide detective about some of his cases.
In one case the police had a very good description of a subject of several rapes and attempted murders. The scetch they had resambled the guy like a photograph.
This guy was checked out by the police several times (of police officers knowing the scetch).
And nobody thought he might be it, so he was never taken in.
Because he was small and seemed harmless (which was also part of the description). (He was called the "Messerzwerg" "Knife dwarf".)
As a matter of fact this scatch was displayed in the bar he worked in. (And there are several things like it. Humans tend to believe what they want to believe.)

This means: If you do not look like a runner. There is a high probability even high good security will let you walk no matter the indications.
Because they are all looking for cybered up Hacker, SAM etc. Such a guy would not even a problem for the head of the office with his knew muscle augmentations for ego. And every second they waste on you is a second the badass gets away, kills the boss, rapes the secretary, blows up the building etc.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Mar 14 2011, 02:07 AM) *
I sat down and spent the time stating out the character a couple different ways. I've advised him of his options now, which basically consist of either 1. take more Wares 2. be an Adept 3. be a Dronomancer. Hopefully one of those three things wont break the character concept too badly for him. I will say that his character was almost perfect for a Street level game, but the group has agreed to do a Pro level game, and his character wasn't going to cut it.

Thanks all for the advice. We'll see what he decides.


Like I asked before: how well does the player know the SR system?

It isn't uncommon for a new player to want to play a "vanilla normal human" at first. Because they don't really realize how much more powerful everyone else will be. Only when they see implants and adept powers in action will it really sink in.

Face it: most 1st-time characters suck. Because SR is a fairly difficult system to build a good character in. There is a lot to be said for letting everyone completely re-build their character after the first mission, so they can use what they've learned about the game system as players. Until you've played it, it's just very hard to estimate what all the numbers really mean.
Fringe
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 14 2011, 06:26 AM) *
Face it: most 1st-time characters suck. Because SR is a fairly difficult system to build a good character in. There is a lot to be said for letting everyone completely re-build their character after the first mission, so they can use what they've learned about the game system as players. Until you've played it, it's just very hard to estimate what all the numbers really mean.


Agreed. I usually take the Missions approach. Let the new player choose from the archetypes for the first session with the understanding that he or she will (re-)make the character his or her own after the first mission. On the other hand, even some of the archetypes aren't "optimized". For example, I found the Combat Mage to be too much of a generalist to be really good at the what I wanted him to do well (magic). I'm also unlucky enough as a player that I don't leave the house with a character under 4 Edge...and preferably higher.
Irion
@Ascalaphus
QUOTE
Face it: most 1st-time characters suck. Because SR is a fairly difficult system to build a good character in. There is a lot to be said for letting everyone completely re-build their character after the first mission, so they can use what they've learned about the game system as players. Until you've played it, it's just very hard to estimate what all the numbers really mean.

I call you on this one. As a matter of fact I think it is quite easy to build a good char in shadowrun.
First off all, you should start with a mage, because there are much less books to know. (This was my first char, because I did not fell like going through all the augmentations and combat rules, weapons etc. And since playing a mage is the same in SR, D&D and so forth you can use your know how from other games)
Well, and off you go with the strongest class. What a hit. (I think the group had corebook, arsenal and augmentation at this time)

So next the attributes. Since I read the Karma and BP rules (it was 3BP for attributes then) I thought to myself:
Well logic and intuition look pretty need, because I get Bonus BP. They pay for themselves. And one is my drain stats. Nice one.
A alright, willpower is the other, so lets take another five there and my only Bonus as human is Edge so lets get it to 6 (since it said to led you survive stupid situations. And as a new player you get in those a lot)
Well, a bit Charisma for the spirits. Reaction or strenght from one to two would just increase the possibility of a glitch, and would be cheap later so what the hell, did not have the BP for it anyway.
Well, as for flaws and edges. I had already spend 15 BP on magician. As I wanted to play a healer (since healer are very well liked in other games) I went for the biotechgroub and the flaw pazifist 1 and in dept (because it fitted the background story and it a similar disadvantage was known to me from other games). (And some others I can't remember)
As for the spells I was shocked to learn, that you could take spells all over the board.
So I took things like Stunbolt (since I did not want to kill), Shapchance, heal, heal disease, increase Willpower, Influance, Control thoughts and some other stuff.
Then I got some cyberware not much tought. Just a datajack(because I was told this was common) and Cybereys for visibility.
(If you go with the Karma generation even the stuff about getting attributes high is not nessecary anymore)

QUOTE
It isn't uncommon for a new player to want to play a "vanilla normal human" at first. Because they don't really realize how much more powerful everyone else will be. Only when they see implants and adept powers in action will it really sink in.

Which is, as a matter of fact, not that stupid. If you manage to survive the first run. Which is not that hard, because the opposition does normaly not start maxes out to the end. So you spend your first money on cyberware. Since you get to benefit from the easy ways of getting stuff in game (availability test) you just might get your muscle toner of 4 right after the first two to three runs. So if you max out edge it is quite efficient.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Mar 14 2011, 02:30 AM) *
I just find it hard to believe that someones who job regularly includes the exchange of small lead object flying at supersonic speeds would not at some point in their career get performance enhancing 'ware, even if only a synaptic booster and muscle toner. This is a setting where cybereyes and datajacks are considered normal, and the only people who care about a little essence loss have magic. Your foes will certainly have 'ware, why shouldn't you? If you had religious or ethical concerns about 'ware, I think you're in the wrong job.

That's not to say there absolutely cannot be a 'ware-less runner(though driver is kinda a bad roll for someone without consistent access to multiple passes), but those characters would likely be super specialists in a larger team, and most certainly would not be in the line of fire if it would be at all avoided(after all, after surprise, initiative passes is the most important factor in combat). Since most runner teams have between 3 and 5 runners, it's not unfair to assume that they can all fight, and it's also not fair to make everyone else work with The Load, when most runners wouldn't be caught dead with someone who can't fight on even grounds with augmented opposition.

It is possible to build nearly any basic concept in Shadowrun and optimize it to sometimes silly powerful levels. That is one of the great strengths of the game system. Sometimes it requires you to optimize... differently, though. Think sideways.

Alright, you've inspired me to go make a 'mundane' character. As per the original post, he will be a driver and a face.

I fully expect him to be able to keep up with any team without having anyone needing to carry him.

I'll post him when I'm done.



-k
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Mar 13 2011, 09:50 PM) *
I'm sure there's some positive quality we're not thinking of, either.


Not to mention the Handling Characteristics of the Vehicle itself.
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