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Whipstitch
Olfactory Scanners, AKA Chemical Detection Systems or Chemsniffers are the very first entry under the "Scanners" in the Technical Security rules section. They're not cyberware, they don't leverage the metahuman brain in any way and they're generally pretty dang fallible. I'm fine with a 'wared up and street savvy runner inferring by scent that the person they're dealing with likely has Tailored Pheromones-- frankly, it's a pretty safe bet when dealing with Fixer types in general-- but I have my doubts about your run-of-the-mill sensor package being able to tell the difference between someone rocking Tailored Pheromones and an ovulating 19 year old.
Cain
I might be remembering something from SR3 instead of SR4.5, but there is/used to be a Perception modifiers table that included Tailored Pheromones as a negative modifier when trying to hide from chemsniffers. It also included some odd things like a woman's menstrual cycle.

But that's beside the point. We here always rail on how runners are supposed to be professionals. At the level that most runners play at, they should expect everyone to be at the top of their game. Bitching and whining to their mommy that the other guy is using moderately-illegal tricks is not only unprofessional, it's stupid! Everyone is expected to have gear that pushes the boundaries, if not outright crossing them. Hell, the Johnsons are sponsored by the Big 10 Megacorps: Many of my characters simply assume that the Johnson is packing some sort of social enhancements, and plan accordingly. It's all part of doing business; you go for whatever advantage you can get.
sabs
I used to have a Face with an implanted air tank. When ever he met with the Johnson, he would switch to breathing from the tank.

I think whining that the Johnson is using Tailored Pheramones is silly. Of course he's using them. We're all highly trained criminals here. That's the job description, if you cant' hack it. Don't play in the big leagues.
Whipstitch
Plus, if you really wanted to put a Johnson over a barrel, you could just play nice and wait 20 minutes to hear what he has to say rather than try busting his balls over Tailored Pheromones. If he had wanted something legal done, after all, he would have just flipped through the yellow pages.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 15 2011, 11:24 AM) *
I couldn't find any other chemsniffers in the core book or Arsenal.

Anyway, I think that when TP lowers the threshold to smell out someone, when OB can actually smell and identify pheromones, monitor airborne chemicals for dangerous levels, identify diseases by smell and so forth, that detecting that someone's pheromones are anomalous makes good sense.

Which still does not mean that TP are the cause of the anomolous readings. You will never, beyond the shadow of a doubt, be able to tell whether they target has TP or not from using Chemsniffers/Cybersnouts. To actually identify such things, you need a Medical Profile, which takes hours to build.
KCKitsune
Hey quick question (that is slightly on topic) for everyone here: Can you put an Olfactory Booster in a cyberlimb, and if you are able to do so, do you still have the "Intense Odor" cutoff switch?

The reason I ask this is because my Chaos Mage has the SURGE quality of Vomeronasal Organ, and I was wanting to know if the Olfactory Booster can deal with the downside of this quality. Also does the Booster stack with the Vomeronasal Organ?
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 15 2011, 08:47 PM) *
Hey quick question (that is slightly on topic) for everyone here: Can you put an Olfactory Booster in a cyberlimb, and if you are able to do so, do you still have the "Intense Odor" cutoff switch?

The reason I ask this is because my Chaos Mage has the SURGE quality of Vomeronasal Organ, and I was wanting to know if the Olfactory Booster can deal with the downside of this quality. Also does the Booster stack with the Vomeronasal Organ?


Well, it's technically Headware. I'm not so sure you can put that in other limbs. It also makes me think it's probably in your nose, which means you'd lose your Vomeronasal Organ altogether.
Irion
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE
You will never, beyond the shadow of a doubt, be able to tell whether they target has TP or not from using Chemsniffers/Cybersnouts.

I think nobody is saying so. The same is true for breath tests for alcohol from the police. They also not "beyond the shadow of a doubt".
@KCKitsune
QUOTE
Can you put an Olfactory Booster in a cyberlimb

Nope since it is headware. Or we would be talking about putting a nanohive in cybereys.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 15 2011, 02:47 PM) *
@KCKitsune
Nope since it is headware. Or we would be talking about putting a nanohive in cybereys.


That would be.... Odd, to say the least... smile.gif But you can put a nanohive in a Cyber Skull if you like.
Irion
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE
But you can put a nanohive in a Cyber Skull if you like.

No you can't. Because nanohives have to go in Cyberhands or feet or the powergamer :cry:s. (damn no :cry: smily)
KCKitsune
Wait, you can put datajacks or commlinks in a cyberlimb and that's no problem. Both of those pieces of 'ware are headware. What's the difference?
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 14 2011, 02:38 AM) *
Well, you all forget about the one and only RULE OF COOL.
Meaning the normal human driver will always get away, because he is COOLER.


I suppose it's also cooler to walk to the library to look something up in the Encyclopedia Britannica?
nyahnyah.gif

Driving a car with your brain is cheaper, easier, and more effective.
1BP worth of commlink and progs, 6 bp for a level of skill and a spec, and you're now throwing 12 dice at a reduced threshold.
Every character can afford this, and all of them are equally good at it.
Makki
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 15 2011, 04:40 PM) *
I suppose it's also cooler to walk to the library to look something up in the Encyclopedia Britannica?
nyahnyah.gif

how cool is that. wanna see a PC pulling that off!
Saint Sithney
"It's 2070, and I only jam out to cassette tapes! I have to fix and maintain them all myself because it's such a painfully outdated method of sound reproduction, but it's so retro cool!"

Personally, I don't see it. wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 15 2011, 02:33 PM) *
Wait, you can put datajacks or commlinks in a cyberlimb and that's no problem. Both of those pieces of 'ware are headware. What's the difference?


Agreed, I do not see a problem with it myself...
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 16 2011, 10:44 AM) *
Agreed, I do not see a problem with it myself...

I think the rule stated in the book is that if a piece of 'ware has a Capacity rating, it can be installed in a cyberlimb and won't cost Essence. I see it in the beginning of each of the Ware sections in the main book.

*edited for clarity* I'm agreeing with you and KCKitsune, just giving an actual rule for it smile.gif

*edit again* Olfactory Booster has a Capacity, so it can be put in a cyberlimb
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 15 2011, 10:44 PM) *
Agreed, I do not see a problem with it myself...

Thank you.

@phlapjack77: Thank you as well. I thought that was how the rule went.


Now Tymeaus & phlapjack77, do you think having the Olfactory Booster in a cyberlimb would give you the cutoff switch? Also I didn't see anything in either the rules for Vomeronasal Organ or the booster that says that they don't stack with other scent sensors
Mesh
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 13 2011, 11:44 PM) *
Don't forget specializations for your Nascar driver:

Pilot Ground Vehicle (Left Turns)


LOL
phlapjack77
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 16 2011, 11:05 AM) *
do you think having the Olfactory Booster in a cyberlimb would give you the cutoff switch? Also I didn't see anything in either the rules for Vomeronasal Organ or the booster that says that they don't stack with other scent sensors

I don't see why you wouldn't have the cutoff switch. There's no rule against it. And from a common-sense perspective, it's just "data", so you can have a switch to do anything you like to the data.

As far as the booster / V. organ...I don't see a rule either way. Part of me says they wouldn't stack, since they seem to do very similar things. Part of me says that one's a metagenetic quality, and one's cyberware, and it's not really game-breaking, so why not. The gripping hand says, ask your GM smile.gif
Laodicea
He got the kinks worked out and I give the character a B+ now. Badass, but not Amazing. Which is fine.

Unfortunately he found the whole process rather stressful. he didn't enjoy using the community DK spreadsheet to generate the charater, even though I'm certain it saved him loads of time. Oh well. Hopefully he'll enjoy his first run.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Mar 16 2011, 12:18 AM) *
He got the kinks worked out and I give the character a B+ now. Badass, but not Amazing. Which is fine.

Unfortunately he found the whole process rather stressful. he didn't enjoy using the community DK spreadsheet to generate the charater, even though I'm certain it saved him loads of time. Oh well. Hopefully he'll enjoy his first run.


Maybe he would enjoy Daegaan's character generator. I have found it to be the best SR4 character generator at the moment. I think that if you and he gave it a shot, you find it more useful than the DK spread sheet.

X-Kalibur
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 15 2011, 09:49 PM) *
Maybe he would enjoy Daegaan's character generator. I have found it to be the best SR4 character generator at the moment. I think that if you and he gave it a shot, you find it more useful than the DK spread sheet.


I tend to use both to make characters. I'll use Daegann's for my basis and use it like an outline, then use the spreadsheet to get down into the nitty gritty.

For a new person to the system, however, Daegann's is by far the best option.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 15 2011, 09:05 PM) *
Thank you.

@phlapjack77: Thank you as well. I thought that was how the rule went.


Now Tymeaus & phlapjack77, do you think having the Olfactory Booster in a cyberlimb would give you the cutoff switch? Also I didn't see anything in either the rules for Vomeronasal Organ or the booster that says that they don't stack with other scent sensors


It would provide the Cutoff Switch for the Olfactory Booster in the cyberlimb, but likely not for your native sense of smell. They would also stack by default from what I understand.
Ascalaphus
Well, if you leave the vomeronasal organ in the nose, then the pheromones are going to affect you. An olfactory booster in your cyberleg isn't going to change that. It's just that most people put the olfactory booster in their nose, in which case it could block tailored pheromones by shutting off your sense of smell.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 16 2011, 08:59 AM) *
It would provide the Cutoff Switch for the Olfactory Booster in the cyberlimb, but likely not for your native sense of smell. They would also stack by default from what I understand.

Damn. Vomeronasal Organ is looking more like a pain in the ass, but it is part and parcel of the template I used for the character's SURGE III metagenic qualities.

Now quick question for everyone... why is Vomeronasal Organ such a double edged sword. Yes it gives you a bonus to perception tests for smells, and +2 dice for social interactions, but if you're near a large amount of garbage, you lose 2 dice off EVERY test AND Tailored Pheromones are twice as effective against you.

This quality is 10 points. That is the same number of points needed to be a fragging Mystic Adept.

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 16 2011, 10:13 AM) *
Well, if you leave the vomeronasal organ in the nose, then the pheromones are going to affect you. An olfactory booster in your cyberleg isn't going to change that. It's just that most people put the olfactory booster in their nose, in which case it could block tailored pheromones by shutting off your sense of smell.

Except, a Booster costs Essence and I was wanting to save on Essence. Also why wouldn't it override the native sense of smell? I mean it is wired into the character's CNS.

Also the Booster was not in his leg... it was in his left hand.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 16 2011, 07:17 AM) *
Damn. Vomeronasal Organ is looking more like a pain in the ass, but it is part and parcel of the template I used for the character's SURGE III metagenic qualities.

Now quick question for everyone... why is Vomeronasal Organ such a double edged sword. Yes it gives you a bonus to perception tests for smells, and +2 dice for social interactions, but if you're near a large amount of garbage, you lose 2 dice off EVERY test AND Tailored Pheromones are twice as effective against you.

This quality is 10 points. That is the same number of points needed to be a fragging Mystic Adept.


Which is why the Character of Mine that has this Quality wears Nose Plugs/Filters...
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 16 2011, 03:17 PM) *
Except, a Booster costs Essence and I was wanting to save on Essence. Also why wouldn't it override the native sense of smell? I mean it is wired into the character's CNS.

Also the Booster was not in his leg... it was in his left hand.


Well, if it overrides your sense of smell, it'd also cancel the Vomeronasal Organ entirely. It's one or the other; stack and be vulnerable, or replace but don't get the benefits of stacking.

I gotta admit, VO doesn't look like such a great quality. One of the more overcosted Surge traits really. I dislike that about Surge: even the fairly non-functional qualities cost at least 5BP when you could also get them a lot cheaper as say, a handheld device.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 16 2011, 10:32 AM) *
Which is why the Character of Mine that has this Quality wears Nose Plugs/Filters...

Or get at least a Rating 2 Olfactory Booster in the Nose... Since there is nothing in Vomeronasal Organ that says that it's incompatible with the Booster.

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 16 2011, 10:42 AM) *
Well, if it overrides your sense of smell, it'd also cancel the Vomeronasal Organ entirely. It's one or the other; stack and be vulnerable, or replace but don't get the benefits of stacking.

I gotta admit, VO doesn't look like such a great quality. One of the more overcosted Surge traits really. I dislike that about Surge: even the fairly non-functional qualities cost at least 5BP when you could also get them a lot cheaper as say, a handheld device.

Actually, why wouldn't they stack. Also in the description of Olfactory Booster (pg 339 SR4A) it says the following:
QUOTE
A cut-off function allows the user to completely ignore intense odors.

So by that description... and the fact that it does not say that the person loses the bonus gained for having the Booster, I think that it acts like a hardware version of Negator (pg 108 Unwired)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 16 2011, 09:06 AM) *
Or get at least a Rating 2 Olfactory Booster in the Nose... Since there is nothing in Vomeronasal Organ that says that it's incompatible with the Booster.


Or that, but My guy is Magically Active, and cannot afford to lose the Magic... Heh...
Cheops
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Mar 16 2011, 04:18 AM) *
He got the kinks worked out and I give the character a B+ now. Badass, but not Amazing. Which is fine.

Unfortunately he found the whole process rather stressful. he didn't enjoy using the community DK spreadsheet to generate the charater, even though I'm certain it saved him loads of time. Oh well. Hopefully he'll enjoy his first run.


Maybe he could have used AH's PACKS system? Probably the best way to go 99/100 times with new players.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 16 2011, 11:09 AM) *
Or that, but My guy is Magically Active, and cannot afford to lose the Magic... Heh...

Life is more Wiz with wire... smile.gif

I have a Chaos Mage I'm working on that has an Essence of 4.015. It is part of his backstory to have the 'ware that he has.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 16 2011, 04:06 PM) *
Or get at least a Rating 2 Olfactory Booster in the Nose... Since there is nothing in Vomeronasal Organ that says that it's incompatible with the Booster.

Actually, why wouldn't they stack.


If you take cybereyes, you lose any natural low-light or thermographic sight you have. I think this is the same thing.



QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 16 2011, 04:06 PM) *
Also in the description of Olfactory Booster (pg 339 SR4A) it says the following:
QUOTE
A cut-off function allows the user to completely ignore intense odors.

So by that description... and the fact that it does not say that the person loses the bonus gained for having the Booster, I think that it acts like a hardware version of Negator (pg 108 Unwired)


You mean you think that if you turn off your cybersnout (because there's bad smells) you don't get a penalty to smelling? I guess we have very different interpretations.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 16 2011, 08:25 AM) *
Life is more Wiz with wire... smile.gif

I have a Chaos Mage I'm working on that has an Essence of 4.015. It is part of his backstory to have the 'ware that he has.


No Arguments there. I have plenty of magically awakened characters with 'Ware of some kind or another, just not this one. He is an interesting character to me because he does not have any 'Ware. And he has a pretty interesting backstory.

QUOTE
You mean you think that if you turn off your cybersnout (because there's bad smells) you don't get a penalty to smelling? I guess we have very different interpretations.


Well, No, you don't get to make a Smell perception roll at all in that case, and you do not suffer the penalties imposed by the horrible smells either. Lose, Win in this case. But how often is a failed Perception (Smell) roll going to cause you issues? Turning off the Cybersnout rarely causes major issues with you and your environment, and is generally seen as a positive benefit, rather than a drawback.
CanRay
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 16 2011, 11:09 AM) *
You mean you think that if you turn off your cybersnout (because there's bad smells) you don't get a penalty to smelling? I guess we have very different interpretations.

I look at it more as a bonus to not yarffing up those sloppies you had before the 'Run at the Stuffer Shack.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 16 2011, 11:09 AM) *
If you take cybereyes, you lose any natural low-light or thermographic sight you have. I think this is the same thing.

Actually, since they address things like Synthacardium for those people who are bi-cardiac, and that people with 360 vision can't get cyber augmentation without losing their special vision, I would think the omission is indicative that you can have both. Also nothing says that they don't stack and you can't use the cutoff if you need to.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 16 2011, 07:47 PM) *
I would think the omission is indicative


All kinds of things get omitted. They didn't explicitly say cars and spirits can't be poisoned, and because of that people here have carried on long arguments about how much neurotoxin it takes to kill a car or a fire elemental. This is a fairly obscure quality and the olfactory booster is a fairly obscure piece of equipment. They might have missed it, or cut it to keep down word count. Absence doesn't prove things either way.

I think the olfactory booster is supposed to replace your normal nose, since it's also called a cybersnout. That would mean it replaces the vomeronasal organ.
I don't think the OB can filter out scent input from other sources; it's not a sim module or anything like that, it's just a sensor. If you put it in your cyberhand and keep the VO, then the VO is still affected by pheromones.

It's really just up to GM interpretation. I just gave my view and maybe my perspective is interesting to you. Decide for yourself; it doesn't affect me either way, since we're not in the same gaming group smile.gif
Laodicea
This thread is beginning to smell.
redwulf25
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 16 2011, 09:17 AM) *
Damn. Vomeronasal Organ is looking more like a pain in the ass, but it is part and parcel of the template I used for the character's SURGE III metagenic qualities.

Now quick question for everyone... why is Vomeronasal Organ such a double edged sword. Yes it gives you a bonus to perception tests for smells, and +2 dice for social interactions, but if you're near a large amount of garbage, you lose 2 dice off EVERY test AND Tailored Pheromones are twice as effective against you.

This quality is 10 points. That is the same number of points needed to be a fragging Mystic Adept.


Maybe for the same reason it costs five more points to play an Orc who's bright red than it does to play an Orc of normal skin tone, despite the fact that being bright red is a negative quality (Striking Skin Pigmentation) that means playing an Oni should cost you five points less.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (redwulf25 @ Mar 19 2011, 08:03 PM) *
Maybe for the same reason it costs five more points to play an Orc who's bright red than it does to play an Orc of normal skin tone, despite the fact that being bright red is a negative quality (Striking Skin Pigmentation) that means playing an Oni should cost you five points less.


Ahh, but you forget that red ones go faster. Especially with Orks involved.
redwulf25
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Mar 19 2011, 11:13 PM) *
Ahh, but you forget that red ones go faster. Especially with Orks involved.


Good point but it doesn't explain why the cost increase remains if the Orc is instead blue.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It is an Opportunity Cost. Keeps them Rare. They become something that you want to play for the challenge of playing that race, rather than the optimal build to play because ity makes you more powerful.
redwulf25
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 20 2011, 09:26 AM) *
It is an Opportunity Cost. Keeps them Rare. They become something that you want to play for the challenge of playing that race, rather than the optimal build to play because ity makes you more powerful.


It's bad design philosophy. Players shouldn't be forced to throw points down the drain for the "challenge" of playing a specific race.

Edit: Better design would have been to not make Striking Skin Tone a Negative Quality and simply make Oni cost the same as a garden variety Orc.
Glyph
I would almost agree with the opportunity cost argument, except that some of the options are a better deal than the base metatype. Ogres cost the same as orks, and get a 5 point positive metagenetic quality for free. Oni cost 5 points more, and get a 5 point negative quality. But hey, point-wise, they still come out better than humans.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (redwulf25 @ Mar 20 2011, 12:55 PM) *
It's bad design philosophy. Players shouldn't be forced to throw points down the drain for the "challenge" of playing a specific race.

Edit: Better design would have been to not make Striking Skin Tone a Negative Quality and simply make Oni cost the same as a garden variety Orc.


Okay... If you say so. I have absolutely no problem with Oni costing more than base Orks, though. So meh... wobble.gif

QUOTE
I would almost agree with the opportunity cost argument, except that some of the options are a better deal than the base metatype. Ogres cost the same as orks, and get a 5 point positive metagenetic quality for free. Oni cost 5 points more, and get a 5 point negative quality. But hey, point-wise, they still come out better than humans.


I guess... It doesn't really bother me either way, though... wobble.gif
TheOOB
Oni actually get a useful positive quality, and their negative quality doesn't really have much in the way of mechanical baggage. Ogres positive quality is of limited use, and they still suffer from the stigma of being a metavarient.

Also, the metagenetic costs and bonuses are for Changelings, which are balanced different than metavarients, especially since you need a quality just to have the right to buy those qualities.

I have a friend who insists that elves are over priced because dwarves cost less and get more stat bonuses, but that doesn't take into account that not everything is equal. Agility is likely the best attribute, and charisma is very strong. Meanwhile body and willpower are fairly strong, but strength is the least useful attribute, and dwarves have a penalty to what is possibly the second best attribute. Things need to be judged on their own merits.
sabs
You want broken, look at the Pixie cost/stat ration. It's FREAKING ridiculous.

30BP for bonuses to reaction, agility, charisma, int, will, logic
redwulf25
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Mar 21 2011, 04:47 AM) *
Oni actually get a useful positive quality, and their negative quality doesn't really have much in the way of mechanical baggage. Ogres positive quality is of limited use, and they still suffer from the stigma of being a metavarient.


The only positive quality I see that Oni get is low light vision, which is part of the standard Orc metatype. Whereas an Ogres "limited use" quality reduces the cost of their lifestyle, that doesn't seem that limited to me.



QUOTE
I have a friend who insists that elves are over priced because dwarves cost less and get more stat bonuses, but that doesn't take into account that not everything is equal. Agility is likely the best attribute, and charisma is very strong. Meanwhile body and willpower are fairly strong, but strength is the least useful attribute, and dwarves have a penalty to what is possibly the second best attribute. Things need to be judged on their own merits.


If not everything is equal then how come I need to spend equal amounts of BP/Karma increasing them? One of the reasons I pay for RPG's instead of making my own is expect the people I'm paying to have a better sense of game balance.
Whipstitch
People can also start out with manifestly different design philosophies when making an RPG, however. In many cases, game balance isn't the overriding concern when they differentiate things given that there's also verisimilitude and setting fluff to consider. Take the Streetline Special vs. the Morrissey Élan, for example. The cost difference between the two is small enough to be virtually immaterial at chargen, yet the Élan schools the Special in every way that counts. Why? Because of the setting fluff and the fact that not everyone in the game world is a 400 bp PC. Both weapons remain in the game because one is a sleek sidearm for those willing to pay a bit more for quality while the Streetline Special is what a broke ass novacoke addict hides in their waistband. Making an RPG that makes sense is often a matter of making things unfair in a way that fits the setting. Add in good ol' human fallibility and there's plenty of room for disagreement.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (sabs @ Mar 21 2011, 09:12 AM) *
You want broken, look at the Pixie cost/stat ration. It's FREAKING ridiculous.

30BP for bonuses to reaction, agility, charisma, int, will, logic

Well, effectively 50 BP unless you want to start with Uneducated.

Still, even then they're really really good.



-k
Glyph
I kind of agree with Whipstich - not every choice in the game needs to be optimal (you don't want D&D 4th Edition, where everything is the same). The metatypes, especially, are hard to really balance, because each of them is strong in some areas, weak in others, and not everyone is going to agree that they offset each other exactly as much as they should. Orks, for example, have a net gain in build points, at the expense of some not-crippling lowered mental Attribute maximums and perhaps slightly more racism than other metatypes have to deal with. Elves, on the other hand, actually come out behind humans, but they have no disadvantages, and most people who pick them have no problem paying a bit of an opportunity cost to be able to have higher Agility and/or Charisma.

The metavariant costs can seem a bit more unfair because you're not comparing apples and oranges any more - you're comparing apples to other apples, and some seem to be significantly better from a mechanical point of view. Ogres cost the same as orcs, are closer to human looking but not enough for other orks to call them "smoothies", and have a free advantage. Oni cost more, and have the disadvantage of an extremely distinctive appearance. And it is not merely this one example. Some metavariants are flat out inferior, while others are a better buy than the base one (fomori, ogres, etc.). It doesn't bother me that much because I consider the main metatypes fairly balanced, so it's not as important to me if the unusual variants are 5 or 10 points off one way or another. I can see how it would bother some people, though. And to be honest, while I wouldn't change it on my own, I would probably lower the cost of oni if a player wanted to play one, and complained about it.
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