New player wants to play terrible character, driver/face? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Damn. Vomeronasal Organ is looking more like a pain in the ass, but it is part and parcel of the template I used for the character's SURGE III metagenic qualities.

Now quick question for everyone... why is Vomeronasal Organ such a double edged sword. Yes it gives you a bonus to perception tests for smells, and +2 dice for social interactions, but if you're near a large amount of garbage, you lose 2 dice off EVERY test AND Tailored Pheromones are twice as effective against you.

This quality is 10 points. That is the same number of points needed to be a fragging Mystic Adept.

Which is why the Character of Mine that has this Quality wears Nose Plugs/Filters...

[Ascalaphus]

Except, a Booster costs Essence and I was wanting to save on Essence. Also why wouldn't it override the native sense of smell? I mean it is wired into the character's CNS.

Also the Booster was not in his leg... it was in his left hand.

Well, if it overrides your sense of smell, it'd also cancel the Vomeronasal Organ entirely. It's one or the other; stack and be vulnerable, or replace but don't get the benefits of stacking.

I gotta admit, VO doesn't look like such a great quality. One of the more overcosted Surge traits really. I dislike that about Surge: even the fairly non-functional qualities cost at least 5BP when you could also get them a lot cheaper as say, a handheld device.

[KCKitsune]

Which is why the Character of Mine that has this Quality wears Nose Plugs/Filters...

Or get at least a Rating 2 Olfactory Booster in the Nose... Since there is nothing in Vomeronasal Organ that says that it's incompatible with the Booster.

Well, if it overrides your sense of smell, it'd also cancel the Vomeronasal Organ entirely. It's one or the other; stack and be vulnerable, or replace but don't get the benefits of stacking.

I gotta admit, VO doesn't look like such a great quality. One of the more overcosted Surge traits really. I dislike that about Surge: even the fairly non-functional qualities cost at least 5BP when you could also get them a lot cheaper as say, a handheld device.

Actually, why wouldn't they stack. Also in the description of Olfactory Booster (pg 339 SR4A) it says the following:

A cut-off function allows the user to completely ignore intense odors.

So by that description... and the fact that it does not say that the person loses the bonus gained for having the Booster, I think that it acts like a hardware version of Negator (pg 108 Unwired)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or get at least a Rating 2 Olfactory Booster in the Nose... Since there is nothing in Vomeronasal Organ that says that it's incompatible with the Booster.

Or that, but My guy is Magically Active, and cannot afford to lose the Magic... Heh...

[Cheops]

He got the kinks worked out and I give the character a B+ now. Badass, but not Amazing. Which is fine.

Unfortunately he found the whole process rather stressful. he didn't enjoy using the community DK spreadsheet to generate the charater, even though I'm certain it saved him loads of time. Oh well. Hopefully he'll enjoy his first run.

Maybe he could have used AH's PACKS system? Probably the best way to go 99/100 times with new players.

[KCKitsune]

Or that, but My guy is Magically Active, and cannot afford to lose the Magic... Heh...

Life is more Wiz with wire... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have a Chaos Mage I'm working on that has an Essence of 4.015. It is part of his backstory to have the 'ware that he has.

[Ascalaphus]

Or get at least a Rating 2 Olfactory Booster in the Nose... Since there is nothing in Vomeronasal Organ that says that it's incompatible with the Booster.

Actually, why wouldn't they stack.

If you take cybereyes, you lose any natural low-light or thermographic sight you have. I think this is the same thing.

Also in the description of Olfactory Booster (pg 339 SR4A) it says the following:

A cut-off function allows the user to completely ignore intense odors.

So by that description... and the fact that it does not say that the person loses the bonus gained for having the Booster, I think that it acts like a hardware version of Negator (pg 108 Unwired)

You mean you think that if you turn off your cybersnout (because there's bad smells) you don't get a penalty to smelling? I guess we have very different interpretations.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Life is more Wiz with wire... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have a Chaos Mage I'm working on that has an Essence of 4.015. It is part of his backstory to have the 'ware that he has.

No Arguments there. I have plenty of magically awakened characters with 'Ware of some kind or another, just not this one. He is an interesting character to me because he does not have any 'Ware. And he has a pretty interesting backstory.

You mean you think that if you turn off your cybersnout (because there's bad smells) you don't get a penalty to smelling? I guess we have very different interpretations.

Well, No, you don't get to make a Smell perception roll at all in that case, and you do not suffer the penalties imposed by the horrible smells either. Lose, Win in this case. But how often is a failed Perception (Smell) roll going to cause you issues? Turning off the Cybersnout rarely causes major issues with you and your environment, and is generally seen as a positive benefit, rather than a drawback.

[CanRay]

You mean you think that if you turn off your cybersnout (because there's bad smells) you don't get a penalty to smelling? I guess we have very different interpretations.

I look at it more as a bonus to not yarffing up those sloppies you had before the 'Run at the Stuffer Shack.

[KCKitsune]

If you take cybereyes, you lose any natural low-light or thermographic sight you have. I think this is the same thing.

Actually, since they address things like Synthacardium for those people who are bi-cardiac, and that people with 360 vision can't get cyber augmentation without losing their special vision, I would think the omission is indicative that you can have both. Also nothing says that they don't stack and you can't use the cutoff if you need to.

[Ascalaphus]

I would think the omission is indicative

All kinds of things get omitted. They didn't explicitly say cars and spirits can't be poisoned, and because of that people here have carried on long arguments about how much neurotoxin it takes to kill a car or a fire elemental. This is a fairly obscure quality and the olfactory booster is a fairly obscure piece of equipment. They might have missed it, or cut it to keep down word count. Absence doesn't prove things either way.

I think the olfactory booster is supposed to replace your normal nose, since it's also called a cybersnout. That would mean it replaces the vomeronasal organ.
I don't think the OB can filter out scent input from other sources; it's not a sim module or anything like that, it's just a sensor. If you put it in your cyberhand and keep the VO, then the VO is still affected by pheromones.

It's really just up to GM interpretation. I just gave my view and maybe my perspective is interesting to you. Decide for yourself; it doesn't affect me either way, since we're not in the same gaming group (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Laodicea]

This thread is beginning to smell.

[redwulf25]

Damn. Vomeronasal Organ is looking more like a pain in the ass, but it is part and parcel of the template I used for the character's SURGE III metagenic qualities.

Now quick question for everyone... why is Vomeronasal Organ such a double edged sword. Yes it gives you a bonus to perception tests for smells, and +2 dice for social interactions, but if you're near a large amount of garbage, you lose 2 dice off EVERY test AND Tailored Pheromones are twice as effective against you.

This quality is 10 points. That is the same number of points needed to be a fragging Mystic Adept.

Maybe for the same reason it costs five more points to play an Orc who's bright red than it does to play an Orc of normal skin tone, despite the fact that being bright red is a negative quality (Striking Skin Pigmentation) that means playing an Oni should cost you five points less.

[X-Kalibur]

Maybe for the same reason it costs five more points to play an Orc who's bright red than it does to play an Orc of normal skin tone, despite the fact that being bright red is a negative quality (Striking Skin Pigmentation) that means playing an Oni should cost you five points less.

Ahh, but you forget that red ones go faster. Especially with Orks involved.

[redwulf25]

Ahh, but you forget that red ones go faster. Especially with Orks involved.

Good point but it doesn't explain why the cost increase remains if the Orc is instead blue.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It is an Opportunity Cost. Keeps them Rare. They become something that you want to play for the challenge of playing that race, rather than the optimal build to play because ity makes you more powerful.

[redwulf25]

It is an Opportunity Cost. Keeps them Rare. They become something that you want to play for the challenge of playing that race, rather than the optimal build to play because ity makes you more powerful.

It's bad design philosophy. Players shouldn't be forced to throw points down the drain for the "challenge" of playing a specific race.

Edit: Better design would have been to not make Striking Skin Tone a Negative Quality and simply make Oni cost the same as a garden variety Orc.

[Glyph]

I would almost agree with the opportunity cost argument, except that some of the options are a better deal than the base metatype. Ogres cost the same as orks, and get a 5 point positive metagenetic quality for free. Oni cost 5 points more, and get a 5 point negative quality. But hey, point-wise, they still come out better than humans.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's bad design philosophy. Players shouldn't be forced to throw points down the drain for the "challenge" of playing a specific race.

Edit: Better design would have been to not make Striking Skin Tone a Negative Quality and simply make Oni cost the same as a garden variety Orc.

Okay... If you say so. I have absolutely no problem with Oni costing more than base Orks, though. So meh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I would almost agree with the opportunity cost argument, except that some of the options are a better deal than the base metatype. Ogres cost the same as orks, and get a 5 point positive metagenetic quality for free. Oni cost 5 points more, and get a 5 point negative quality. But hey, point-wise, they still come out better than humans.

I guess... It doesn't really bother me either way, though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[TheOOB]

Oni actually get a useful positive quality, and their negative quality doesn't really have much in the way of mechanical baggage. Ogres positive quality is of limited use, and they still suffer from the stigma of being a metavarient.

Also, the metagenetic costs and bonuses are for Changelings, which are balanced different than metavarients, especially since you need a quality just to have the right to buy those qualities.

I have a friend who insists that elves are over priced because dwarves cost less and get more stat bonuses, but that doesn't take into account that not everything is equal. Agility is likely the best attribute, and charisma is very strong. Meanwhile body and willpower are fairly strong, but strength is the least useful attribute, and dwarves have a penalty to what is possibly the second best attribute. Things need to be judged on their own merits.

[sabs]

You want broken, look at the Pixie cost/stat ration. It's FREAKING ridiculous.

30BP for bonuses to reaction, agility, charisma, int, will, logic

[redwulf25]

Oni actually get a useful positive quality, and their negative quality doesn't really have much in the way of mechanical baggage. Ogres positive quality is of limited use, and they still suffer from the stigma of being a metavarient.

The only positive quality I see that Oni get is low light vision, which is part of the standard Orc metatype. Whereas an Ogres "limited use" quality reduces the cost of their lifestyle, that doesn't seem that limited to me.

I have a friend who insists that elves are over priced because dwarves cost less and get more stat bonuses, but that doesn't take into account that not everything is equal. Agility is likely the best attribute, and charisma is very strong. Meanwhile body and willpower are fairly strong, but strength is the least useful attribute, and dwarves have a penalty to what is possibly the second best attribute. Things need to be judged on their own merits.

If not everything is equal then how come I need to spend equal amounts of BP/Karma increasing them? One of the reasons I pay for RPG's instead of making my own is expect the people I'm paying to have a better sense of game balance.

[Whipstitch]

People can also start out with manifestly different design philosophies when making an RPG, however. In many cases, game balance isn't the overriding concern when they differentiate things given that there's also verisimilitude and setting fluff to consider. Take the Streetline Special vs. the Morrissey Élan, for example. The cost difference between the two is small enough to be virtually immaterial at chargen, yet the Élan schools the Special in every way that counts. Why? Because of the setting fluff and the fact that not everyone in the game world is a 400 bp PC. Both weapons remain in the game because one is a sleek sidearm for those willing to pay a bit more for quality while the Streetline Special is what a broke ass novacoke addict hides in their waistband. Making an RPG that makes sense is often a matter of making things unfair in a way that fits the setting. Add in good ol' human fallibility and there's plenty of room for disagreement.

[KarmaInferno]

You want broken, look at the Pixie cost/stat ration. It's FREAKING ridiculous.

30BP for bonuses to reaction, agility, charisma, int, will, logic

Well, effectively 50 BP unless you want to start with Uneducated.

Still, even then they're really really good.



-k

[Glyph]

I kind of agree with Whipstich - not every choice in the game needs to be optimal (you don't want D&D 4th Edition, where everything is the same). The metatypes, especially, are hard to really balance, because each of them is strong in some areas, weak in others, and not everyone is going to agree that they offset each other exactly as much as they should. Orks, for example, have a net gain in build points, at the expense of some not-crippling lowered mental Attribute maximums and perhaps slightly more racism than other metatypes have to deal with. Elves, on the other hand, actually come out behind humans, but they have no disadvantages, and most people who pick them have no problem paying a bit of an opportunity cost to be able to have higher Agility and/or Charisma.

The metavariant costs can seem a bit more unfair because you're not comparing apples and oranges any more - you're comparing apples to other apples, and some seem to be significantly better from a mechanical point of view. Ogres cost the same as orcs, are closer to human looking but not enough for other orks to call them "smoothies", and have a free advantage. Oni cost more, and have the disadvantage of an extremely distinctive appearance. And it is not merely this one example. Some metavariants are flat out inferior, while others are a better buy than the base one (fomori, ogres, etc.). It doesn't bother me that much because I consider the main metatypes fairly balanced, so it's not as important to me if the unusual variants are 5 or 10 points off one way or another. I can see how it would bother some people, though. And to be honest, while I wouldn't change it on my own, I would probably lower the cost of oni if a player wanted to play one, and complained about it.