New player wants to play terrible character, driver/face? Options

[Whipstitch]

One of the things I think a lot of people are overlooking is the fact that the GM sets the challenges.

My problem with this is that it really only makes sense up to a point. I vastly prefer that the quality of opposition be dictated largely by the situation rather than by the character sheets and my own whims-- I see myself more as referee and bit player than a director, I guess. As a GM, it saves me a lot of work, for one thing, and it is also not particularly unreasonable given that a police officer will in all likelihood be trained to some minimum standard. Unless they're a mall cop in the 'burbs you're just not going to see that many guards rolling 4 dice with no smartlink in my games, for example. I don't try to set players up to fail or anything, but there has to be a ground floor, you know? Particularly since a character will presumably be in play for a while and thus you probably want a couple dice worth of padding just to get around the odd bad roll or two, particularly since runners sometimes have to do their job after catching a round in their armor jacket.

This is particularly true in the case of driving since an opposing Rigger is capable of doing their job remotely. A player really should be prepared for the notion that the Star or Knight Errant is totally capable of having a modest but still professional grade drone rigger jump into that Patrol-1 that is pursuing them even if it was a bog-standard officer behind the wheel up until that point. And frankly, in that case, it's painfully easy for the guy to be throwing at least 11+ dice on a vehicle test between a Control Rig, vehicle handling and their own skills. That's quite a few dice for a guy that may have no more than 3 Reaction and 3 Pilot Ground, but well, that's the Sixth World for you. It's a dangerous place.

[Glyph]

I can't see pro lvl working with 400 BP anyways...400 BP is supposed to be Beginners.

300 is beginners. 500 is pro level. 400 is the default level, someone who has been doing this for awhile, and is good, but is not the best yet. Generally, you can be really good at something and passable at everything else, or decent at a set of related skills (break-in, magic, hacking, etc.). At higher levels of build points, characters have less weaknesses and broader skill sets. But you can still make some fairly powerful characters at 400 points.

The system is not kind to unawakened, unaugmented generalists with average Attributes and lots of middling skills - dice pools are one of the backbones of the system, so how high they are profoundly affects how effective your character will be. Initiative passes are another biggie. And augmentations and magic both give comparatively cheap boosts to characters.

That's one of the things I like about karmagen - low dice pools, which are less valuable in the game, are cheaper in karmagen, so it is far kinder to generalists, while still keeping specialists functional.

[Critias]

One of the things I think a lot of people are overlooking is the fact that the GM sets the challenges.

While I (kind of) agree with your basic theory here -- I'm all for GM's tweaking things to suit the challenge level they want at their individual game -- remember that this is a new character being introduced to an existing campaign. The challenge has already been set, in other words.

[Jhaiisiin]

To be fair, though, your poistion applies to SR4, as well as most other Point buy systems. Most of those mistakes can be easily rectified by a GM who glances over the character and points these things out. It is trivial to make a character in SR4A. Even more so if you have a GM who actually points out flaws. Just Sayin'.

Besides, Lack of Initiative Boosters is the Easiest mistake to correct, all it takes is 10-50 Nuyen and you are covered.

You realize you're trying to convince the poster who has stated in the past it takes days for him to make a character, right?

[Whipstitch]

This current tangent hits me as kinda silly and how long it takes Cain to write up a sheet is pretty irrelevant. Even if it were important, I'd point out that there is often a gap between how quickly an experienced player can slap together a sheet vs how long they prefer to take. If one of you guys gave me a general character concept, I could probably bang out a reasonable example within an hour that would probably be fairly powerful-- hell, less than that if I just have to allot the PC a bp "allowance" to cover things life armor, guns, ammo, lifestyle and licenses. And it'd be even quicker if you said "I don't care whether the sheet would make a particularly effective runner." But my own sheets? I often have ideas percolating in my head for weeks before a session, so half of the work is already done before I ever put a pen to paper or open up a spreadsheet. By that measure it's fair to say that I often let an idea stew for days even if I only end up putting an hour so into actually statting the sheet out and putting the background fluff to paper.


Beyond that, I don't think there's anyone arguing that there is anything particularly complicated about the mechanics of the BP system. But like Cain I would argue that sometimes new players simply do not really understand what to emphasize in order to effectively fill the role they wish the character to play even if they understand the obvious stuff like skills and defaulting. I've seen many, many subpar first attempts at melee characters, for example, and it's due to a number of reasons, such as the fact that many good melee buffs are present only in Arsenal, Augmentation and Street Magic, for example. Ironically enough, it also seems that many players gravitate to the "See it, punch it" role because in theory that shit should be simple. I don't particularly fault the writers for this, mind you, since it's a given that a system that does not revolve around discrete ability packages ala D&D classes require a more hands on approach from the player virtually by definition. But all the sympathy in the world doesn't make my life any easier when a player comes to the table with a big pile of Strength crippled by a dicepool that won't let them hit the broad side of a barn and no other talents worth mentioning.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Mar 15 2011, 04:47 AM

[Irion]

@Cain

For example, the mage you listed has no significant initiative boosters, which could be a serious downfall in a fight.

Well, so you go Astral for the first few runs, until you get 10 Karma and 50k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Well, I guess thats not too complicated.
As a matter of fact this is the even better route if you started in Karma Gen, since it saved you a lot of Karma. (20 to be precise +10 for the quality)
Well, in BP System it would have been a bit less. Since you normaly do not get 2 Karma for one BP.

As I see it, most of this "must have" rules are quite, lets say double edged swords.
Lets take the sustaining foci for the start. If you got one the max. level without the restricted gear quality is 3.
If your GM enforces the rules on BC this might easily reduced to two or even one.
Well reducing your passes to 2 or even back down to one.

If your GM enforces Wards, well you would have to press through them. If you do not want to alarm the mage guarding the building you have to deactivate your focus. And bring back a force three increased reflexes is a pain in the ass for a starting mage. Since well, you would need around 11 dices to make three hits quite sure.
Since you won't have much more than 10 dices for drain...(Lets put it like that: I have seen 10 dices scoring 1 or even 0 hits more than once)
And if your GM is insisting on this one point of BC...


@imperialus

One of the things I think a lot of people are overlooking is the fact that the GM sets the challenges.

I think this is true in many ways. If you have to aquire fake licences for all the restricted stuff

If this player is your only face, and only wheelman then just scale the opposition to fit him. Instead of throwing a pimped out elvin Johnson with tailored pheromones, and a mob mood spell at him put him up against someone who's skills are roughly the same as the characters.

Well, first of all the social combat rules are crap, since your "streetrep." would be making a hell of a pool for just any char. So if you would be negotiating with a "high ranking" Johnson, he would win anyway. And situational modifiers are quite to low anyway. I mean desasterous result and benefitial is just 5 dices appart.

Well, lets think of what a chem sniffer may turn the situation of the tailored Pheromons using Johnson in a high class restaurant to.
(Not to mention in a bar with other shadowrunners.)
I think using tailored Pheromons in negotiation is percieved like using influence or any other mental manipulation spell. I guess it is not taken well.
It is not taken well by the lawenforcements anyway. And the knoledge alone of the johnson using this kind of stuff would give anybody who did any business with him a good reason negate any contract.
The good runners get the restaurant to install chemsniffers on the tables sold and to the time of the meeting monitored by the runners.
And since the Johnson won't be the only one in this restaurant (more so if it is used by other shadowrunners and Johnsons too) who thinks of getting an advantage out of tailored pheromons I guess, the restaurant might be eager to deploy this system you offered to prevent lawsuits.

So at the end of the day you get the dear Mr Johnson to pay you for the chem sniffer on the table (you got installed) not to sound an alarm, you are using this background knowledge and the blacklettering material to get the upper hand in negotiations and last but not least you might have sold a bunch of cheap chem sniffers to the restaurant.
This is how things are done. Turn a few bonus dice from the other side to huge pools of situational modifiers on yours.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, because Mr. Big Shot Johnson lacks the pull to keep a restaurant from blackmailing him or turning him over to the Star. What, doesn't he tip well enough? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

If one of my PCs tried pulling something like that the most likely result would be that they'd have a hard time scoring the job without some serious ass kissing and their fixer would likely threaten to slap the stupid out of them the next time he called. I mean, I hate to assume too much about 2070s professional criminal etiquette and all, but I'm guessing that tattling on your prospective employer or fellow runners over their illegal gear is considered a faux pas given that it's the professional criminal underworld and every third troll is packing spurs and a Pred IV packed with ExEx.* Tailored Pheromones may be illegal, after all, but they're still less dice than Empathy Software and not really on the same level as a mind control spell given that the latter can handily convince someone to pull the pin on a grenade before putting it down the front of their boxers. This makes me think it's a real stretch that a piece of 'ware expressly designed to be a benefit to social interactions can be so easily become a gaping liability during such a basic interaction.


*The other trolls have Panther Cannons.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Mar 15 2011, 08:27 AM

[Critias]

Well, lets think of what a chem sniffer may turn the situation of the tailored Pheromons using Johnson in a high class restaurant to.
(Not to mention in a bar with other shadowrunners.)
I think using tailored Pheromons in negotiation is percieved like using influence or any other mental manipulation spell. I guess it is not taken well.
It is not taken well by the lawenforcements anyway. And the knoledge alone of the johnson using this kind of stuff would give anybody who did any business with him a good reason negate any contract.
The good runners get the restaurant to install chemsniffers on the tables sold and to the time of the meeting monitored by the runners.
And since the Johnson won't be the only one in this restaurant (more so if it is used by other shadowrunners and Johnsons too) who thinks of getting an advantage out of tailored pheromons I guess, the restaurant might be eager to deploy this system you offered to prevent lawsuits.

So at the end of the day you get the dear Mr Johnson to pay you for the chem sniffer on the table (you got installed) not to sound an alarm, you are using this background knowledge and the blacklettering material to get the upper hand in negotiations and last but not least you might have sold a bunch of cheap chem sniffers to the restaurant.
This is how things are done. Turn a few bonus dice from the other side to huge pools of situational modifiers on yours.

So your scheme is to show up to a face-to-face conversation wherein you and an anonymous but middle-to-high-ranked corporate benefactor are to discuss the details of a criminal enterprise that you and your friends -- likely any one of which is packed full of illegal stuff -- are trying to get hired for, and then to publicly humiliate and/or blackmail your Mr. Johnson in order to leverage him into paying you more money in exchange for you...what, exactly? Not going to the restaurant management with some vague notion about a law suit? Not going to Knight Errant to complain about Mr. Johnson's illegal augmentation?

How does this profit you, again?

How many more jobs will your Fixer send your way once he, your middleman, gets an angry call from Johnson about this? How likely is Johnson to be to still want to hire you? How likely is Johnson to be more scared of the cops than you are, a bunch of cybered-to-the-gills SINless professional criminals? How likely are the cops to be to give two tugs when you make that call (anonymously tipping them off to oh no pheromones, at best, or standing there full of lethal combat augmentation while complaining about oh no pheromones at worst)? You'll be lucky if Johnson and his security team don't just kill you to shut you up (I mean, that's how I'd deal with would-be blackmailers if I was the guy in charge of the black operations slush fund for my corporation).

And, say this all goes according to plan -- somehow -- and you don't die, don't lose the job outright, and don't completely have your Fixer drop you like the prom queen's panties...so what? How much reward are you getting for all that risk, and for the hit to your rep? And how do you think the next Johnson (the one with the emotitoy, instead) is going to treat you?

I mean, you get points for coming up with some out-there Leverage type scheme, and resorting to technology and subterfuge instead of violence or magic, I guess. But, I just...yeah. I don't see it working quite like you want.

[Whipstitch]

Kinda fun when you get finished with an edit and find out that someone else already went there. Good to know I'm not completely insane though.

[Grinder]

It means that there's at least another one as crazy as you posting here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Epicedion]

So your scheme is to show up to a face-to-face conversation wherein you and an anonymous but middle-to-high-ranked corporate benefactor are to discuss the details of a criminal enterprise that you and your friends -- likely any one of which is packed full of illegal stuff -- are trying to get hired for, and then to publicly humiliate and/or blackmail your Mr. Johnson in order to leverage him into paying you more money in exchange for you...what, exactly? Not going to the restaurant management with some vague notion about a law suit? Not going to Knight Errant to complain about Mr. Johnson's illegal augmentation?

How does this profit you, again?

How many more jobs will your Fixer send your way once he, your middleman, gets an angry call from Johnson about this? How likely is Johnson to be to still want to hire you? How likely is Johnson to be more scared of the cops than you are, a bunch of cybered-to-the-gills SINless professional criminals? How likely are the cops to be to give two tugs when you make that call (anonymously tipping them off to oh no pheromones, at best, or standing there full of lethal combat augmentation while complaining about oh no pheromones at worst)? You'll be lucky if Johnson and his security team don't just kill you to shut you up (I mean, that's how I'd deal with would-be blackmailers if I was the guy in charge of the black operations slush fund for my corporation).

And, say this all goes according to plan -- somehow -- and you don't die, don't lose the job outright, and don't completely have your Fixer drop you like the prom queen's panties...so what? How much reward are you getting for all that risk, and for the hit to your rep? And how do you think the next Johnson (the one with the emotitoy, instead) is going to treat you?

I mean, you get points for coming up with some out-there Leverage type scheme, and resorting to technology and subterfuge instead of violence or magic, I guess. But, I just...yeah. I don't see it working quite like you want.

Hello Notoriety, goodbye Negotiation.

[Cain]

@Cain

Well, so you go Astral for the first few runs, until you get 10 Karma and 50k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Well, I guess thats not too complicated.
As a matter of fact this is the even better route if you started in Karma Gen, since it saved you a lot of Karma. (20 to be precise +10 for the quality)
Well, in BP System it would have been a bit less. Since you normaly do not get 2 Karma for one BP.

As I see it, most of this "must have" rules are quite, lets say double edged swords.
Lets take the sustaining foci for the start. If you got one the max. level without the restricted gear quality is 3.
If your GM enforces the rules on BC this might easily reduced to two or even one.
Well reducing your passes to 2 or even back down to one.

If your GM enforces Wards, well you would have to press through them. If you do not want to alarm the mage guarding the building you have to deactivate your focus. And bring back a force three increased reflexes is a pain in the ass for a starting mage. Since well, you would need around 11 dices to make three hits quite sure.
Since you won't have much more than 10 dices for drain...(Lets put it like that: I have seen 10 dices scoring 1 or even 0 hits more than once)
And if your GM is insisting on this one point of BC...

BWA-HA-HA!

I have never, in all the years that Sr4.x has been on the market, seen an effective starting mage with *less* than 10 dice for Drain. Usually it's much, much higher. Just check out some of the Dumpshock builds, and you'll routinely see 15+ dice to start. You're also neglecting Edge, which will give you that boost when you're cornered.

Yes, repeatedly casting Increase Reflexes is annoying, which is why many mage builds take the hit and buy 'ware. Even if you want to play a pure mage, you can always find easy ways around wards: bound spirits are cheap and easy to maintain, for example. There are so many ways to get around that silly restriction, it boggles the mind.

To be fair, though, your poistion applies to SR4, as well as most other Point buy systems. Most of those mistakes can be easily rectified by a GM who glances over the character and points these things out. It is trivial to make a character in SR4A. Even more so if you have a GM who actually points out flaws. Just Sayin'.

Honestly, it depends on the system. Point-buy in Savage Worlds and D&D 4e works smoothly. The kind of mistakes you're referring to only happen in overly-complex and fiddly systems, such as GURPS and Hero system. Basically, the more points you have to allocate, the more complicated the system becomes, and the harder it is to use.

[Ascalaphus]

One of the things I think a lot of people are overlooking is the fact that the GM sets the challenges.

The GM is also like a movie director, deciding which scenes in the script to play out fully, and which ones just get a bit of montage. If nobody in the group enjoys legwork, then you'd just be punishing them if you played it out extensively. But if a couple of people made Face/Investigator/Hacker etc. builds and enjoy it, then it's a good idea to go into more detail on the legwork.
The same with the driver: if nobody is really all that interested, then you can cut a chase short with a handful of dice rolls to see if you get away or you get stopped. But if you have a driver PC, that's a good reason to spin out those drive scenes more extensively.

To be fair, though, your poistion applies to SR4, as well as most other Point buy systems. Most of those mistakes can be easily rectified by a GM who glances over the character and points these things out. It is trivial to make a character in SR4A. Even more so if you have a GM who actually points out flaws. Just Sayin'.

Once again, assuming that just because it's easy for you means it's easy for new players. It often isn't.

[Grinder]

Chargen in SR4.5 is so fiddly, you can easily make a huge mistake . Those mistakes can cripple your character for ages to come, especially if you don't know how to fix it or it's less efficient to do so after chargen. For example, the mage you listed has no significant initiative boosters, which could be a serious downfall in a fight. And unless you're experienced enough to know the value of sustaining foci, you could easily miss them entirely.

To be fair, though, your poistion applies to SR4, as well as most other Point buy systems. Most of those mistakes can be easily rectified by a GM who glances over the character and points these things out. It is trivial to make a character in SR4A. Even more so if you have a GM who actually points out flaws. Just Sayin'.

Once again, assuming that just because it's easy for you means it's easy for new players. It often isn't.

Opinions have been shared, so don't come back on this, ok? I'm afraid it will get out of hand otherwise.

[Irion]

@Critias

So your scheme is to show up to a face-to-face conversation wherein you and an anonymous but middle-to-high-ranked corporate benefactor are to discuss the details of a criminal enterprise that you and your friends -- likely any one of which is packed full of illegal stuff -- are trying to get hired for

First of all he would have been breaking trust if he used tailored Pheromones.

Second of all. If you try to get the combat troll in an fancy restaurant, you may as well call lonestar right away to pick you up.
Sorry, but going with forbidden cyberware and a bunch of freaks to middle or high class meetingpoint is just stupid to begin with.
Yeah, maybe a lot of GM let it fly and does not arrest to hole team.
The question was, if a non or very lightly cybered Face can be of use. The use is, he is able to walk away from this situation.

Letting the Johnson meet the rest of the team is a risk by itself. (But that is another point)


You do not blackmail like: If you do not we will... !!!
Plain stupid.

You go like this.
Your use of tailored pheromones to influence my judgement has been noted and seen violattion of my trust and the trust of my team.
You have to understand, that we are no longer in any way interested to do buissnes with you. This means we will terminate all already provided services immediately. Including our hacker intercepting the feed of the chem sniffer on this table. You are aware that this kind of biological enhancement is illegal I suppose. But this is no longer our Problem, it is yours alone.

Good day Sir.

So, the Mr. J has now two possibilities.
First he excuses and increases the payoff and offers a retribution for his offensive behavior or he is on his own.
And then he has to pray, that the owners of the restaurants have ties with his Companie and not with an other or Lonestar/Knight Errant. (unlikly, because it was choosen as neutral ground)
Because picking up a high ranking member of an other AAA is a very good bargain chip.
(And even if it is the one of his own employer it does not look good for him.)

Everything he knows is, that he produced a huge fuck up. He agreed to meet at a very pricy place where security and privacy are top.
Back then he liked this idea, because it would prevent the runners from doing something stupid. Like lets say kidnap him, because they actually worked for the corp he wanted them to hit.
Put then he tought it would be a nice idea to come to such a place with illegal cyberware and he tries to drug the person he is there to hire.
Well, not so good.
So if this guy leaves now he might be in trubble. No runners for the job, his time wasted and possibly facing criminal charges. This includes beeing possibly picked up by an Megacorp with a special interest in him. (Possibly the one portecting the stuff he wanted to steal, burn down etc)
His bodyguards can't do anything about it.
So what is the only option to correct this mistake? Runners are a bunch of greed criminals with no sense of virtue or honor if it comes down to money.
So offer them money and everything goes.
So he will try to stop the face by making an offer. The runner will bite and Mr J thinks he got the situation back under control. Did just cost him an additional 10.000 now and an other 10.000 when the job is finished. Well, he crossed his limit of 60.000 by 5000. But what the hec. He will be just paying that out of his own pocket.
And he will have a word with the guy who told him this cyberware is ideal for negotiatons and picking up chicks...

How many more jobs will your Fixer send your way once he, your middleman, gets an angry call from Johnson about this? How likely is Johnson to be to still want to hire you? How likely is Johnson to be more scared of the cops than you are, a bunch of cybered-to-the-gills SINless professional criminals? How likely are the cops to be to give two tugs when you make that call (anonymously tipping them off to oh no pheromones, at best, or standing there full of lethal combat augmentation while complaining about oh no pheromones at worst)?

You remeber we were talking about the ups of having no restricted or forbidden Cyberware, since having no cyberware does include this somehow.
If you are in full lethal combat augmentation you would be dead before reaching the table, I guess.

But, I just...yeah. I don't see it working quite like you want.

Well, if you try to work with cunning you have to stick to it to the end.

Anyway: If your GM is a dick these sniffers are there from the start. And if you do not realise that, then maybe after your meeting a Lonestar detective might just step out of the corner an clap his hands several times in an ironic manner.
@Whipstitch

This makes me think it's a real stretch that a piece of 'ware expressly designed to be a benefit to social interactions can be so easily become a gaping liability during such a basic interaction.

What you think is your thing. But the book says it is illegal. And there is only one thing which it does so to do so would be considered immoral.
As a matter of fact tailored pheromones effect the other person. So it is quite like slipping drugs in his or her drink.
And I guess thats illegal, too.

So your argument is: Emosoft is plain bullshit therefor I have to ignore the rest of the rules and the fluff of social modifiers.
It should only apply to read emotions and to nothing more.
Because knowing that the troll whos bike you burned down accidently is angry does not help.

@Cain

. Just check out some of the Dumpshock builds, and you'll routinely see 15+ dice to start.

An elf might start with 12 dices. Or even 14. But more than 15?

[Cain]

I'm sorry, Irion, but I have to agree with the others. Trying to blackmail a Johnson into giving you more money for your run, just because he's using Tailored Pheromones, is likely to get you killed.

The possibilities the Johnson has are to trash the runner's reputations as overly self-important "prom queens", or to have them executed. For crying out loud, most runner teams are committing major felonies just by existing; packing the hardware and equipment and foci runners tend to do is just icing on the cake. Don't think for a minute that any Johnson will let their reputation be tarnished by some uppity runner team getting the better of them. They will retaliate.

An elf might start with 12 dices. Or even 14. But more than 15?

I'm tired and headed off to bed. Check some of the Dumpshock builds for examples. In fact, in the thread on magical threats, there's a very mediocre partial wage-mage build that has 15+ dice.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

EDIT: Missed Grinder's Post... Removed to Comply...

[Whipstitch]

What you think is your thing. But the book says it is illegal. And there is only one thing which it does so to do so would be considered immoral.
As a matter of fact tailored pheromones effect the other person. So it is quite like slipping drugs in his or her drink.
And I guess thats illegal, too.

So your argument is: Emosoft is plain bullshit therefor I have to ignore the rest of the rules and the fluff of social modifiers.
It should only apply to read emotions and to nothing more.
Because knowing that the troll whos bike you burned down accidently is angry does not help.

That's not my argument. My argument is that Tailored Pheromones are not analogous to burning down somebody's bike or slipping them some rohypnol. In terms of raw efficacy they're a bit better than being sexy and worse than bringing perfectly legal software toys to the party. It's not mind control even if the authorities would prefer that it be kept off the market-- something it has in common with lots of pretty common runner tools and augmentations, as it happens. Beyond that, if I remember correctly, it's actually a bit of a stretch to say that a standard chemsniffer will detect that someone has Tailored Pheromones given that by the RAW they can distinguish between gender but are not accurate enough to distinguish between individuals. Having Tailored Pheromones makes it easier for the sniffer to pick up someone's scent at all, but that is not the same thing as saying the sniffer now realizes that they must have illegal 'ware. My impression really is that these things are mostly a half-decent way of realizing you have an Invisible Mage on the premises rather than some tool used to bring down Johnsons the minute they step off corp turf. Again, we're talking about a setting in which the last line of the "Face" archetype glossary says that they are "more often than not augmented by biowares such as Tailored Pheromones." There's a world of difference between "It's illegal" and "So immoral even other crims don't like it."

[Ascalaphus]

I think a Chemsniffer would pick up Tailored Pheromones, actually. After all, if they're strong enough to have game effects, they're strong enough to detect.

Use of tailored pheromones is a bit hostile, true. But so is the attitude that players tend to treat Johnson with. Some characters might say it's too hostile, others just shrug and consider it a sort of shortcut to getting you drunk - something that you just gotta roll with.

[Whipstitch]

It's not just a matter of being detected but rather whether the olfactory scanners in question are sophisticated enough to tell the difference between "Female Metahuman Pheromones Detected" and "Female Metahuman With Tailored Pheromones Detected." As written these things have shortcomings like being unable to distinguish between individuals, after all. If you want a level of fidelity that's closer to what dogs bring to the table you'll need some 'ware. So while I'm certainly receptive to the idea that a chemsniffer could tell the difference, I'd also say it's hardly written in stone. I think a lot of it would come down to environment. If the Star is holding you for questioning and think you fit the shadow hustler profile they might stick you in a nice clean room with a scanner and see what the results say. But out on the streets of Seattle? Too much white noise.

[Irion]

Having Tailored Pheromones reduces the threshold for the sniffer to pick up someone's scent at all, but that is not the same thing as saying the sniffer now realizes that they must have illegal 'ware.

Well, it depends on. The point is you just have to mesure the quantity. So if the threashold for picking up Persons is increased by Tailored Pheromons on close range engaging this bioware would trigger a peak in the pheromon levels. Or as it stands those levels will be high anyway.

Again, we're talking about a setting in which the last line of the "Face" archetype glossary says that they are "more often than not augmented by biowares such as Tailored Pheromones.

This might be. Like sure a lot of employes of the secret service use forbidden materials or chemicals.
Well, but they better do not get caught doing so.
To stay in Shadowrun the eco shaman is packing 10 Kilos of Foam Explosives. I do not think this is legal.

I personally even dislike them reducing the threashold for detection if they are not used. But the rules go otherwise.

But as a matter of fact for such a coup I would want to see a character with knoledge in chemistry, Biology and medicine to pull it off. Since everybody else would not be able to interpretate the readings of the scanner. (And you are right, I do not think the scanners have a "detect tailored Pheromones" switch.

[Lantzer]

Am I the only one who shrugs at the pheromones, because a team face once always wore filter plugs? Not for that reason... he hated smog, and hated the lines a respirator put on his face.

If you detect pheromones... point it out in a subtle way. Wrinkle your nose at him, lean back, and at the end of negotiations, hand him some antiperspirant.

[Ascalaphus]

Well, the book is of two minds about that. On the one hand, the only Chemsniffer for sale is the Olfactory Booster, which according to SR4A

Olfactory Booster: Known on the street as a “sniffer,” “cybernose,”
or “cybersnout,” the olfactory booster enhances, identifies, and records
smells (and can play them back later). This opens a completely new
world of sensual information for the user, because smell carries much
more information than a normal metahuman nose would ever be able
to pick up—for example, many diseases can be identified by smell, and
a metahuman body unconsciously produces odors corresponding to
emotions (joy, fear, anger, etc.). Further, the olfactory booster can con-
tinuously analyze the composition of air and set off an alarm if it picks
up traces of explosives, ammunition propellant, or various substances
used in biological and chemical warfare (Scanners, p. 262). A cut-off
function allows the user to completely ignore intense odors. The olfac-
tory booster is usually linked to the user’s PAN to create an even more
thorough AR experience.
Apply the olfactory booster’s rating as a dice pool bonus for any
Perception Tests involving smells.

To me, that says it should definitely pick out tailored pheromones.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, the book is of two minds about that. On the one hand, the only Chemsniffer for sale is the Olfactory Booster, which according to SR4A


To me, that says it should definitely pick out tailored pheromones.

I read that as identifying that the person is exuding smells based upon emotions... not that it is specific to Tailored Pheremones. Will a person's emotive smells be boosted by Tailored Pheremones? Probably, Yes. IS that an Indicator that anyone who has strong emotive smells is using Tailored Pheremones? NO, absolutely not.

And there are other Chemsniffers on the market (In the Books)...

[Ascalaphus]

I couldn't find any other chemsniffers in the core book or Arsenal.

Anyway, I think that when TP lowers the threshold to smell out someone, when OB can actually smell and identify pheromones, monitor airborne chemicals for dangerous levels, identify diseases by smell and so forth, that detecting that someone's pheromones are anomalous makes good sense.