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Troyminator
post Mar 17 2011, 05:16 AM
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I have been reading some of the game supplements and I like the "JackPoint posts" from the various people. I get curious about the people from the JackPoint forums.

Let's have some imaginative fun. What do you think some of the stats/skills for these people would be? I don't really imagine that there is a ultimate right or wrong answer for this.

I would start, but I am new to the system and don't feel too comfortable. Anyone game?
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Fortinbras
post Mar 17 2011, 04:08 PM
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I'm not a big fan of assigning stats to NPCs who serve as plot points and narrative devices. If you don't want me to kill Thor, God of Thunder, don't give me his stats. Moreover, if you give a definitive number of dice FastJack rolls, then there will invariably be some number cruncher who can make a starting character with more. Now FastJack's role of "Best Hacker on the Planet" is irrelevant and, from a storytelling standpoint, it's hand to view him in the same vein again, knowing your po-dunk 400BP guy rolls more dice than the "Best Hacker."

It's the same reason I wouldn't offer any of the JackPointers as antagonists, either. To have characters fighting nigh god like bastions of Sixth World is a no win scenario. If they lose, you've set up your runners to fail. If they win, then the world of Shadowrun breaks a little. Just ask most folks how they feel about Harlequin.

I'm sure a skilled GM and/or writer could come up with a cool scenario in which JackPointer stats would be necessary, but in my experience players will only complain about either the difficulty or ease of these characters they have known for years.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 17 2011, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Mar 17 2011, 10:08 AM) *
I'm not a big fan of assigning stats to NPCs who serve as plot points and narrative devices. If you don't want me to kill Thor, God of Thunder, don't give me his stats. Moreover, if you give a definitive number of dice FastJack rolls, then there will invariably be some number cruncher who can make a starting character with more. Now FastJack's role of "Best Hacker on the Planet" is irrelevant and, from a storytelling standpoint, it's hand to view him in the same vein again, knowing your po-dunk 400BP guy rolls more dice than the "Best Hacker."

It's the same reason I wouldn't offer any of the JackPointers as antagonists, either. To have characters fighting nigh god like bastions of Sixth World is a no win scenario. If they lose, you've set up your runners to fail. If they win, then the world of Shadowrun breaks a little. Just ask most folks how they feel about Harlequin.

I'm sure a skilled GM and/or writer could come up with a cool scenario in which JackPointer stats would be necessary, but in my experience players will only complain about either the difficulty or ease of these characters they have known for years.


My Cyberlogician would love to run into Harlequin (or any of the Jackpointers for that matter), but would never care if he (They) had stats... He would not be there to fight him, but to interact with him...
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CanRay
post Mar 17 2011, 07:31 PM
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The Accountant From Hell would by The Chrome Accountant as many drinks as he wanted. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Teryon
post Mar 17 2011, 08:18 PM
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my Cultured orc Face would sit down and cheerfully play more games of chance with Harlequin, even if it seems pointless to try (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Its all about the game, after all..
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 17 2011, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE (Teryon @ Mar 17 2011, 02:18 PM) *
my Cultured orc Face would sit down and cheerfully play more games of chance with Harlequin, even if it seems pointless to try (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Its all about the game, after all..

Indeed it is... It is the path that you take, not the destination, that is important... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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CanRay
post Mar 17 2011, 08:40 PM
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Sometimes it's the trip...

Oh, wait, sorry, channeling Hunter S. Thompson again.
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sabs
post Mar 17 2011, 08:44 PM
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Actuallly if a Runner I was playing ever came across a JackPointer on a job. He'd be like. "I must apologize, clearly the terms of the job were not fully disclosed by Mr Johnson. It's been an honor meeting you, consider this matter resolved." Then I turn around and I find the Johnson and kill him, and I call my fixer and tell him that I don't take suicide jobs, fuckyouverymuch, and if it happens again, he'll be pushing up daisies.

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CanRay
post Mar 17 2011, 08:45 PM
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Just hope you don't run into Kane. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 17 2011, 09:00 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Mar 17 2011, 02:44 PM) *
Actuallly if a Runner I was playing ever came across a JackPointer on a job. He'd be like. "I must apologize, clearly the terms of the job were not fully disclosed by Mr Johnson. It's been an honor meeting you, consider this matter resolved." Then I turn around and I find the Johnson and kill him, and I call my fixer and tell him that I don't take suicide jobs, fuckyouverymuch, and if it happens again, he'll be pushing up daisies.


Yeah... Awesome...
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Glyph
post Mar 18 2011, 02:09 AM
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The trouble is, prime runners don't usually come with labels, and a lot of times they might not even introduce themselves. You might not know your character is in over his head until it's far too late. On the flip side, someone who claims to be Fastjack might by lying, and be nothing but a two-bit script kiddie. Which could make the character look very foolish if he responds to it by ditching the job, geeking the Johnson, and threatening his fixer.


The way I look at prime runners is this: the game has hard limits on skills and a lot of other things - at some quantifiable point, there is a maximum, where you will find the best of the prime runners. The rest of them will be lower down on that scale - a lot of prime runners might be burnt out, past their prime, or far less than their legend makes them out to be.

The real challenge to playing a prime runner isn't statting one out, but playing one. I disdain fudging dice rolls, but I might resort to using a bit of OOC knowledge on a prime runner's behalf, if my own tactics are not equal to the task of emulating someone who is the best there is at what they do.

But the hordes of imitators can give you an out if the players kick the ass of a legendary NPC - see, that wasn't the real Harlequin, that was just some wannabe in clown makeup.
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CanRay
post Mar 18 2011, 02:53 AM
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On the flipside, that 70-year old man at DisneyLand with his Nieces you've been ordered to hack the CommLink of just might fry your brain without even trying, dropping you stone cold dead right in front of Minnie Mouse.
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sabs
post Mar 18 2011, 12:53 PM
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Well, you know you should try to figure out if the guy you're up against that his friend just called FastJack, really is fastjack (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yes, that old man with his grandkids might fry your brain when his custom Rating 9 Black ICE protecting his commlink eats your soul.

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Fortinbras
post Mar 18 2011, 01:49 PM
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I would like to point out the difference between Harlequin and Harlequin. A lot of folks really hated the adventure because they found it too railroady, and didn't like the idea that there was a nigh invulnerable NPC. I liked it and still use elements of it, but to each their own.
In my experience, as long as that NPC is paying the characters, rather than opposing them, it never becomes an issue. Shadowrun should be open ended and if players want to try and take out their Johnson because a run went bad, it's their prerogative.
To allow stats to be written up about these Prime Runners, players both immediately know what they are up against(I just need 20 more karma and 100k nuyen before I can kill FastJack) and know what the dice pool ceiling is for Prime Runners.

In my experience, once a player knows he is the best in a given world, he feels he has "won the game" and wishes to move onto a different system. Keeping that fourth wall up is important in keeping the players in character and in the setting rather than in the numbers.
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Troyminator
post Mar 18 2011, 02:15 PM
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These are wondeful points that I had not thought of. Thank you for opening my eyes.
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Glyph
post Mar 19 2011, 12:00 PM
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There should be a dice pool ceiling for prime runners - other than things like immortal elves, dragons, and cyberzombies, NPCs should function by the same rules as anyone else, not by GM fiat. My personal opinion is that if a punk ganger from the Barrens can take out your brutally min-maxed sammie using the right tactics, then your brutally min-maxed sammie should be able to take out a prime runner, using the right tactics.

But the prime runners will have more than higher dice pools - they will also have information, influence, and resources that the PCs will be unlikely to be able to match.

I don't worry about players knowing the stats for prime runners, because they don't, any more than they know the stats of that security guard. But while the game has hard caps, they are slightly out of reach for most characters, since they take massive amounts of karma and resources to reach. Even when they do, they are still vulnerable to weaker enemies who use intelligent tactics. Being the best in the word is not an instant "I win" button. But that should hold true for NPC prime runners, too.
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Epicedion
post Mar 19 2011, 06:30 PM
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FastJack, for example, isn't "the best hacker" because he's actually the best hacker. He's "the best hacker" because not only is he very good, he also knows a hundred other very good hackers who trust that he's got the best interests of hackers in mind, and they're willing to follow his lead. You might be able to school grandpa in a one-on-one hacking contest or cybercombat, by the numbers, but if you actually try to act against him you'll probably never get that far.
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Tanegar
post Mar 19 2011, 07:02 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 19 2011, 02:30 PM) *
FastJack, for example, isn't "the best hacker" because he's actually the best hacker. He's "the best hacker" because not only is he very good, he also knows a hundred other very good hackers who trust that he's got the best interests of hackers in mind, and they're willing to follow his lead. You might be able to school grandpa in a one-on-one hacking contest or cybercombat, by the numbers, but if you actually try to act against him you'll probably never get that far.

This is an excellent point. Any prime runner is going to have a sizeable number of allies who are nearly as good (or maybe even as good) as they are.
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K1ll5w1tch
post Mar 19 2011, 07:28 PM
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I'm sure their stats would be very mundane similar to the pregen characters in the SR4 book. Most fiction takes into account these characters are great because of intelligence and ability to improvise in quickly changing situation not necessaarly because the metagamed their characters by taking every ability specific stackable quality they could find to create a demigod character.
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Glyph
post Mar 19 2011, 07:58 PM
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Games are different than books, though! In books, the author can sit down for several days and figure out how the hero is going to escape the deathtrap, and can have the environment and the other characters act in any way desired, to make a predetermined outcome happen.

Games have a much more random factor, and also happen in real time, so dice pools are much, much more of a factor. The intelligence and adaptability of prime NPCs is represented, in large part, by the dice pools that they use. These are people who have come out on top of the heap in a demanding profession that requires highly specialized skills. Yeah, they needed a lot of cunning and planning to reach the top, but they also needed the ability to get the job done. I could see, say, a corporate CEO with low physical stats and combat skills (he might not even have high mental stats, if he is just a figurehead or someone who got the job through family connections). But not a prime runner.

That said, they still might not be technically the very best in the world - a prime runner face might have a wide range of skills, lots of contacts, lots of resources, and be considered the premier high stakes negotiator in L.A., but roll slightly less dice because he only has tailored pheromones and kinesics, but not the glamour quality. He would still likely be able to leverage all of his other advantages to come out ahead of the PC dryad face, though.
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