Assault Cannons, They seem awesome but... Options

[Hound]

So when I first started playing SR I saw the assault cannon in the gear section of the BBB and memories of Ceres Victoria (police girl from Hellsing) flashed through my mind, and I thought they'd be awesome. After learning a bit more about the rules it seems that they're basically useless. For pure damage, a cheap AK-97 firing on full auto will take the same amount of actions, deal more damage, be more flexible (narrow or wide burst) and have the potential to hit multiple targets. For range, I suppose they're a little more damage than a sniper rifle, though the fact that they have no ammunition options and a slower rate of fire is against them.

Also, in the description of the Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon (page 20, Arsenal) it mentions that users complain about the enormous recoil of the gun. However, the weapon is single shot and unless I misunderstand the rules for recoil, single shot weapons do not incur any recoil modifiers? (page 152, SR4A)

Are there rules I'm not aware of governing Assault Cannons, or are they merely a redundant flavor thing? I mean, some are okay, like the Gauss Rifle that halves armor, but the basic ones seem worthless. I want to like them, but I can't bring myself to use a weapon that doesn't have at least some reason to pick it over another.

[phlapjack77]

Off the top of my head, I'd say reasons to pick the assault cannon:

1) Even though you can get more "damage" with full-auto, it doesn't count as damage to beat spirits, hardened armor, etc. Not saying it's better / worse than a sniper rifle, just that it has uses that autofire weapons don't.

2) Why choose it? because it's good to have choices, flavor, etc. Unless you have a play style that min-maxes their char. Which is cool, just sayin....

I vaguely remember there being some rule in an add-on book about adding recoil to assault cannons, even if they were SS?

[Hound]

Well I mean even a pistol would have recoil, whether you fired it quickly or slowly. I was under the impression that the reason SS weapons don't have recoil modifiers is because you are firing them slowly enough that you can take time to simply readjust your stance/grip to compensate for it yourself.

Okay, well that makes sense I guess, about the hardened armor/immunity to normal weapons thing. I mean, it's still unlikely to be a huge issue. Although, I suppose that if you assume they have no recoil, then that's a big bonus to the assault cannon (because a rifle would incur a -9 recoil modifier, even tho it does more damage.) Hm, dunno why I didn't see that before. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Faraday]

Assault cannon recoil tends to be a matter of comfort before ease of aiming. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Hound]

haha yeah, that makes sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I can't even imagine what the recoil on a weapon like that would feel like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[SpellBinder]

Arsenal has a weapon modification that can turn an SS into a FA weapon for 2000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) plus the original cost of the weapon (total of 7500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a Panther XXL). Then there's the rather hard to come by AV ammo which improves the AP value of the assault cannon by 3 against vehicles (making a Panther XXL AP -8 against vehicles).

But this also depends on what you're going to be shooting at. An AK-97 ain't gonna do much against something like a GMC Banshee or MiG-67 except scratch the paint job most of the time, but an assault cannon will punch holes if it's not at least leaving watermelon sized dents.

But as mentioned, yes, SS weapons don't suffer a recoil modifier to a following shot, usually (think of a beefy troll holding a Panther XXL in each hand, then read the rules on using a firearm in each hand). However, there is an optional rule in Arsenal that has a character resisting half the heavy weapon's power as S damage whenever you shoot, and can knock you down as well.

[Summerstorm]

Eh, recoiless rifle is an assault cannon too, yes? *g*

Well, as for topic: Phlapjack already mentioned the draw-backs of full auto. For example: You need to stop a car. You have a cool modded assault rifle, use full auto and have like 3-4 hits (18? damage) and -1 AV: Car has 12 armour and is not affected (Full auto doesn't count)

Now your friend with the assault cannon shoots, has likely more dice and therefore hits (less recoil except in VERY optimized cases) and has whopping -5 AV: Takes out the car in two shots. (Maybe even first)

Spirits and armoured trolls, cyberzombies etc. too may have so much armour that you are reduced to stun damage (or none at all in spirits case).
But yeah, in most cases just plop in APDS-Ammo and it will be fine. But if you can get your hands on that OTHER assault canon, the gauss-rifle... AV = half... uh boy... near guaranteed damage on everything under 20 normal armour and 20 body...

Also, even if therounds are more expensive you might save some money on ammo... needing only one round to end something *g*

[Faraday]

Sounds like you're referring to the Thunderstruck Gauss rifle, which is a nice piece of equipment. Not only does it reduce a vehicle's armor by half, but it then reduces it by another 4 automatically. With a base DV of 9, that means that any given vehicle is vulnerable to taking damage if it doesn't have 20 base armor AND a decent amount of smart armor on top. Not to mention, it's semiautomatic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Hound]

Arsenal has a weapon modification that can turn an SS into a FA weapon for 2000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) plus the original cost of the weapon (total of 7500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a Panther XXL). Then there's the rather hard to come by AV ammo which improves the AP value of the assault cannon by 3 against vehicles (making a Panther XXL AP -8 against vehicles).

But this also depends on what you're going to be shooting at. An AK-97 ain't gonna do much against something like a GMC Banshee or MiG-67 except scratch the paint job most of the time, but an assault cannon will punch holes if it's not at least leaving watermelon sized dents.

But as mentioned, yes, SS weapons don't suffer a recoil modifier to a following shot, usually (think of a beefy troll holding a Panther XXL in each hand, then read the rules on using a firearm in each hand). However, there is an optional rule in Arsenal that has a character resisting half the heavy weapon's power as S damage whenever you shoot, and can knock you down as well.

so, the way I understood the firing mode change upgrade in Arsenal was that it could only move a weapon one category up from it's "natural" modes. So you could make the Panther from an SS weapon to an SA one, but not up to BF/FA

[Stahlseele]

And why WOULD you give an AC more than SA anyway?
Give me ONE GOOD REASON.
It's the difference between 2x18 Damage and 1x21 Damage . .

[Mäx]

One other good reason for getting assault cannon is that it gives you stand in for a snipe rifle while using the same skill as machineguns,grenade launchers and few other nice weapons.
So you dont necessary need long arms skill if you have heavy weapons skill and in pinch you can also ditch automatics skill and just use machineguns in place of assault rifles.

so, the way I understood the firing mode change upgrade in Arsenal was that it could only move a weapon one category up from it's "natural" modes. So you could make the Panther from an SS weapon to an SA one, but not up to BF/FA

No you can give a weapon any firing mode you want, otherwise the following sentence wouldn't make any sense "Upgrading an SS or SA weapon to BF or FA mode is considered a large modification"

[StealthSigma]

Sounds like you're referring to the Thunderstruck Gauss rifle, which is a nice piece of equipment. Not only does it reduce a vehicle's armor by half, but it then reduces it by another 4 automatically. With a base DV of 9, that means that any given vehicle is vulnerable to taking damage if it doesn't have 20 base armor AND a decent amount of smart armor on top. Not to mention, it's semiautomatic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing where in Arsenal that indicates that the Thunderstruck halves armor. I thought I had remember reading that before. It's listed as 9P -4AP. I didn't see anything in the weapon's description about halving armor. That actually makes it worse than the Barret which is also 9P -4AP and gets the benefit of special ammunition (which the Assault Cannons do not).

So for a vehicle a Barret with AV rounds will see 9P -10AP compared to 10P -5AP of the better Assault Cannons.

As for assault cannons. I kind of envision them like the bigger rifles that Saito used in the Ghost in the Shell: SAC series. Specifically, I'm thinking of the episode with the runaway tank where Bouma uses what is basically a rivet gun to secure that huge rifle to concrete. I would like to see Assault Cannons in Shadowrun them better against vehicles than sniper rifles with AV rounds.

[Stahlseele]

Well, one could argue that they are explosives with impact detonator, this would mean the explosive load is directly against a barrier and gets more boom and would also do Chunky Salsa . . This would make Assault-Cannons that are not Gauss-Rifles good against Buildings for example.

[KarmaInferno]

Assault Cannons are intended to be used against Really Big Things.

Using them against anything less is, indeed, a waste.




-k

[Mäx]

Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing where in Arsenal that indicates that the Thunderstruck halves armor. I thought I had remember reading that before. It's listed as 9P -4AP. I didn't see anything in the weapon's description about halving armor. That actually makes it worse than the Barret which is also 9P -4AP and gets the benefit of special ammunition (which the Assault Cannons do not).

1.The halving armor think is in the errata
2. There are actually AV rounds for normal assault cannons, but not for the gauss rifle as it shoots gauss rifle ammo.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing where in Arsenal that indicates that the Thunderstruck halves armor. I thought I had remember reading that before. It's listed as 9P -4AP. I didn't see anything in the weapon's description about halving armor. That actually makes it worse than the Barret which is also 9P -4AP and gets the benefit of special ammunition (which the Assault Cannons do not).

So for a vehicle a Barret with AV rounds will see 9P -10AP compared to 10P -5AP of the better Assault Cannons.

As for assault cannons. I kind of envision them like the bigger rifles that Saito used in the Ghost in the Shell: SAC series. Specifically, I'm thinking of the episode with the runaway tank where Bouma uses what is basically a rivet gun to secure that huge rifle to concrete. I would like to see Assault Cannons in Shadowrun them better against vehicles than sniper rifles with AV rounds.

That would be in the Errata StealthSigma... ALL Gauss Weapons Half Armor First, and then apply there AP Modifier.
Damn... Ninja'd by Max... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[StealthSigma]

1.The halving armor think is in the errata
2. There are actually AV rounds for normal assault cannons, but not for the gauss rifle as it shoots gauss rifle ammo.

Okay. I see both of them now. I was looking in the wrong sections.

However, AV rounds for assault cannons are an additional -3 AP.

So that means 10P -8AP for the Ares and the Panther with AV round compared to the 9P -10AP for the Barret.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay. I see both of them now. I was looking in the wrong sections.

However, AV rounds for assault cannons are an additional -3 AP.

So that means 10P -8AP for the Ares and the Panther with AV round compared to the 9P -10AP for the Barret.

1. The Extra Base Damage is better than -1 to Armor Rating.
2. AP is irrelevant when the target is not armored.
3. For Heavy Armored Targets, the Gauss is still the better choice, for its AP Half -4 (assuming AV round did not apply).
4. Many argue that the AV round would not apply to the Gauss. If it does, then it becomes even more of a no brainer choice for the Gauss. The AV round would make the Gauss at AP Half -7.

At 10 Armor, The Gauss works against Armor 1 (0 if the AV round applies), The Panther against Armor 2, and the Barret against armor 1.

At 20 Armor, the Gauss is working against Armor Rating of 6 (3 if the AV round applies), The Panther is working against Armor of 12, and the Barret is working against Armor 11.

As the Armor increases Beyond 20, the comparison favors the Gauss even more. .

Looks to me like the Thunderstruck is the way to go against most targets, if you can actually get one.

[Yerameyahu]

The Thunderstuck really is a whole different thing, though. It uses different ammo, has a very different effect, and is about as illegal as possible (pre-WAR!).

The answer is: yes, Assault Cannons suck, even if you had one (unthinkably) modded for autofire. (Check the rules, it's not for something using Assault Cannon ammo). They're supposed to be used to pierce heavy structural/vehicle armor, but they 'accidentally' made the sniper rifle better. Whoops. Maybe the Barrett should be moved to the Assault Cannon category. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Probably.
Else just use the Explosives rules, seeing how those are basically light tank rounds with explosive warheads . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Thunderstuck really is a whole different thing, though. It uses different ammo, has a very different effect, and is about as illegal as possible (pre-WAR!).

The answer is: yes, Assault Cannons suck, even if you had one (unthinkably) modded for autofire. (Check the rules, it's not for something using Assault Cannon ammo). They're supposed to be used to pierce heavy structural/vehicle armor, but they 'accidentally' made the sniper rifle better. Whoops. Maybe the Barrett should be moved to the Assault Cannon category. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think that Assault Cannons have their niche. Outside of that Niche, a Sniper Rifle is generally the better option. The Barrett is obviously the best of that Lot. Me, personally, I prefer the PSG1.

[StealthSigma]

1. The Extra Base Damage is better than -1 to Armor Rating.

I don't see that. For the purpose of stun versus physical, they're equally valuable. Since vehicles don't take Stun damage, the ability of the Barrett to have a higher probability of dealing physical damage makes it superior to non-thunderstruck assault cannons.

2. AP is irrelevant when the target is not armored.

If the target isn't armored, the +1 damage from the Assault Cannon isn't likely going to make a lick of difference since that can be offset by EX-Ex rounds bringing the Barret to a 10P -5AP weapon.

3. For Heavy Armored Targets, the Gauss is still the better choice, for its AP Half -4 (assuming AV round did not apply).

It's also more expensive than a Barret and technically harder to acquire due to availability. The Barret also comes with an internal smartgun while the Thunderstruck only gets a laser sight.

My contention is that with the exception of the Thunderstruck, the assault cannon class isn't very impressive when compared to the Barret which is at least equal if not superior to either assault cannon. Note that the Thunderstruck is only good because of the halving of armor values, which means it's better against heavily armored targets and weaker than a Barret against unarmored or lightly armored targets. I'm fine with that since it means the Thunderstruck is filling in the role that I envision assault cannons filling. The Panther and Vigorous suck though.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If the target isn't armored, the +1 damage from the Assault Cannon isn't likely going to make a lick of difference since that can be offset by EX-Ex rounds bringing the Barret to a 10P -5AP weapon.

Indeed... No arguments here...

It's also more expensive than a Barret and technically harder to acquire due to availability. The Barret also comes with an internal smartgun while the Thunderstruck only gets a laser sight.

Price is often an issue, which is why I do not even buy the Barrett. I opt for the PSG1.

My contention is that with the exception of the Thunderstruck, the assault cannon class isn't very impressive when compared to the Barret which is at least equal if not superior to either assault cannon. Note that the Thunderstruck is only good because of the halving of armor values, which means it's better against heavily armored targets and weaker than a Barret against unarmored or lightly armored targets. I'm fine with that since it means the Thunderstruck is filling in the role that I envision assault cannons filling. The Panther and Vigorous suck though.

Indeed. More often than not, a Sniper Rifle is all that you really need. However, for those times where you really need an Assault Cannon, the Thunderstruck is the only way to go.

[Badmoodguy88]

I think some modifications can not be made on assault cannons because they are not normal weapons, and have special ammo. Like adding auto fire to a dart gun. Some people let it fly and others do not.

A highly modified sniper rifle or assault rifle seems more appealing if you min max a little, because of modding limitations mentioned above.

Assault cannons do have a use as a fairly cheap to fire heavy weapon if that is the skill set you are going for. There are some deadly weapons in group.

[StealthSigma]

I think that Assault Cannons have their niche. Outside of that Niche, a Sniper Rifle is generally the better option. The Barrett is obviously the best of that Lot. Me, personally, I prefer the PSG1.

I have a soft spot for the Ares Desert Strike.

I do like the Sniper Rifle class because I wouldn't say any particular rifle is better than another. Each one has a niche that it fills and fills well.

Ares Desert Strike - Range.
Barret - Raw damage and armor penetration.
PSG Enforcer - Multiple ammo types.
Ranger Arms - Disassembly.
Walther - Rugged.