So when I first started playing SR I saw the assault cannon in the gear section of the BBB and memories of Ceres Victoria (police girl from Hellsing) flashed through my mind, and I thought they'd be awesome. After learning a bit more about the rules it seems that they're basically useless. For pure damage, a cheap AK-97 firing on full auto will take the same amount of actions, deal more damage, be more flexible (narrow or wide burst) and have the potential to hit multiple targets. For range, I suppose they're a little more damage than a sniper rifle, though the fact that they have no ammunition options and a slower rate of fire is against them.

Also, in the description of the Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon (page 20, Arsenal) it mentions that users complain about the enormous recoil of the gun. However, the weapon is single shot and unless I misunderstand the rules for recoil, single shot weapons do not incur any recoil modifiers? (page 152, SR4A)

Are there rules I'm not aware of governing Assault Cannons, or are they merely a redundant flavor thing? I mean, some are okay, like the Gauss Rifle that halves armor, but the basic ones seem worthless. I want to like them, but I can't bring myself to use a weapon that doesn't have at least some reason to pick it over another.

Off the top of my head, I'd say reasons to pick the assault cannon:

1) Even though you can get more "damage" with full-auto, it doesn't count as damage to beat spirits, hardened armor, etc. Not saying it's better / worse than a sniper rifle, just that it has uses that autofire weapons don't.

2) Why choose it? because it's good to have choices, flavor, etc. Unless you have a play style that min-maxes their char. Which is cool, just sayin....

I vaguely remember there being some rule in an add-on book about adding recoil to assault cannons, even if they were SS?

Well I mean even a pistol would have recoil, whether you fired it quickly or slowly. I was under the impression that the reason SS weapons don't have recoil modifiers is because you are firing them slowly enough that you can take time to simply readjust your stance/grip to compensate for it yourself.

Okay, well that makes sense I guess, about the hardened armor/immunity to normal weapons thing. I mean, it's still unlikely to be a huge issue. Although, I suppose that if you assume they have no recoil, then that's a big bonus to the assault cannon (because a rifle would incur a -9 recoil modifier, even tho it does more damage.) Hm, dunno why I didn't see that before.

Assault cannon recoil tends to be a matter of comfort before ease of aiming.

haha yeah, that makes sense I can't even imagine what the recoil on a weapon like that would feel like

Arsenal has a weapon modification that can turn an SS into a FA weapon for 2000 plus the original cost of the weapon (total of 7500 for a Panther XXL). Then there's the rather hard to come by AV ammo which improves the AP value of the assault cannon by 3 against vehicles (making a Panther XXL AP -8 against vehicles).

But this also depends on what you're going to be shooting at. An AK-97 ain't gonna do much against something like a GMC Banshee or MiG-67 except scratch the paint job most of the time, but an assault cannon will punch holes if it's not at least leaving watermelon sized dents.

But as mentioned, yes, SS weapons don't suffer a recoil modifier to a following shot, usually (think of a beefy troll holding a Panther XXL in each hand, then read the rules on using a firearm in each hand). However, there is an optional rule in Arsenal that has a character resisting half the heavy weapon's power as S damage whenever you shoot, and can knock you down as well.

Eh, recoiless rifle is an assault cannon too, yes? *g*

Well, as for topic: Phlapjack already mentioned the draw-backs of full auto. For example: You need to stop a car. You have a cool modded assault rifle, use full auto and have like 3-4 hits (18? damage) and -1 AV: Car has 12 armour and is not affected (Full auto doesn't count)

Now your friend with the assault cannon shoots, has likely more dice and therefore hits (less recoil except in VERY optimized cases) and has whopping -5 AV: Takes out the car in two shots. (Maybe even first)

Spirits and armoured trolls, cyberzombies etc. too may have so much armour that you are reduced to stun damage (or none at all in spirits case).
But yeah, in most cases just plop in APDS-Ammo and it will be fine. But if you can get your hands on that OTHER assault canon, the gauss-rifle... AV = half... uh boy... near guaranteed damage on everything under 20 normal armour and 20 body...

Also, even if therounds are more expensive you might save some money on ammo... needing only one round to end something *g*

Sounds like you're referring to the Thunderstruck Gauss rifle, which is a nice piece of equipment. Not only does it reduce a vehicle's armor by half, but it then reduces it by another 4 automatically. With a base DV of 9, that means that any given vehicle is vulnerable to taking damage if it doesn't have 20 base armor AND a decent amount of smart armor on top. Not to mention, it's semiautomatic.

so, the way I understood the firing mode change upgrade in Arsenal was that it could only move a weapon one category up from it's "natural" modes. So you could make the Panther from an SS weapon to an SA one, but not up to BF/FA

And why WOULD you give an AC more than SA anyway?
Give me ONE GOOD REASON.
It's the difference between 2x18 Damage and 1x21 Damage . .

One other good reason for getting assault cannon is that it gives you stand in for a snipe rifle while using the same skill as machineguns,grenade launchers and few other nice weapons.
So you dont necessary need long arms skill if you have heavy weapons skill and in pinch you can also ditch automatics skill and just use machineguns in place of assault rifles.


No you can give a weapon any firing mode you want, otherwise the following sentence wouldn't make any sense "Upgrading an SS or SA weapon to BF or FA mode is considered a large modification"

Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing where in Arsenal that indicates that the Thunderstruck halves armor. I thought I had remember reading that before. It's listed as 9P -4AP. I didn't see anything in the weapon's description about halving armor. That actually makes it worse than the Barret which is also 9P -4AP and gets the benefit of special ammunition (which the Assault Cannons do not).

So for a vehicle a Barret with AV rounds will see 9P -10AP compared to 10P -5AP of the better Assault Cannons.

As for assault cannons. I kind of envision them like the bigger rifles that Saito used in the Ghost in the Shell: SAC series. Specifically, I'm thinking of the episode with the runaway tank where Bouma uses what is basically a rivet gun to secure that huge rifle to concrete. I would like to see Assault Cannons in Shadowrun them better against vehicles than sniper rifles with AV rounds.

Well, one could argue that they are explosives with impact detonator, this would mean the explosive load is directly against a barrier and gets more boom and would also do Chunky Salsa . . This would make Assault-Cannons that are not Gauss-Rifles good against Buildings for example.

Assault Cannons are intended to be used against Really Big Things.

Using them against anything less is, indeed, a waste.




-k

1.The halving armor think is in the errata
2. There are actually AV rounds for normal assault cannons, but not for the gauss rifle as it shoots gauss rifle ammo.

That would be in the Errata StealthSigma... ALL Gauss Weapons Half Armor First, and then apply there AP Modifier.
Damn... Ninja'd by Max...

Okay. I see both of them now. I was looking in the wrong sections.

However, AV rounds for assault cannons are an additional -3 AP.

So that means 10P -8AP for the Ares and the Panther with AV round compared to the 9P -10AP for the Barret.

1. The Extra Base Damage is better than -1 to Armor Rating.
2. AP is irrelevant when the target is not armored.
3. For Heavy Armored Targets, the Gauss is still the better choice, for its AP Half -4 (assuming AV round did not apply).
4. Many argue that the AV round would not apply to the Gauss. If it does, then it becomes even more of a no brainer choice for the Gauss. The AV round would make the Gauss at AP Half -7.

At 10 Armor, The Gauss works against Armor 1 (0 if the AV round applies), The Panther against Armor 2, and the Barret against armor 1.

At 20 Armor, the Gauss is working against Armor Rating of 6 (3 if the AV round applies), The Panther is working against Armor of 12, and the Barret is working against Armor 11.

As the Armor increases Beyond 20, the comparison favors the Gauss even more. .

Looks to me like the Thunderstruck is the way to go against most targets, if you can actually get one.

The Thunderstuck really is a whole different thing, though. It uses different ammo, has a very different effect, and is about as illegal as possible (pre-WAR!).

The answer is: yes, Assault Cannons suck, even if you had one (unthinkably) modded for autofire. (Check the rules, it's not for something using Assault Cannon ammo). They're supposed to be used to pierce heavy structural/vehicle armor, but they 'accidentally' made the sniper rifle better. Whoops. Maybe the Barrett should be moved to the Assault Cannon category.

Probably.
Else just use the Explosives rules, seeing how those are basically light tank rounds with explosive warheads . .

I think that Assault Cannons have their niche. Outside of that Niche, a Sniper Rifle is generally the better option. The Barrett is obviously the best of that Lot. Me, personally, I prefer the PSG1.

I don't see that. For the purpose of stun versus physical, they're equally valuable. Since vehicles don't take Stun damage, the ability of the Barrett to have a higher probability of dealing physical damage makes it superior to non-thunderstruck assault cannons.



If the target isn't armored, the +1 damage from the Assault Cannon isn't likely going to make a lick of difference since that can be offset by EX-Ex rounds bringing the Barret to a 10P -5AP weapon.



It's also more expensive than a Barret and technically harder to acquire due to availability. The Barret also comes with an internal smartgun while the Thunderstruck only gets a laser sight.

My contention is that with the exception of the Thunderstruck, the assault cannon class isn't very impressive when compared to the Barret which is at least equal if not superior to either assault cannon. Note that the Thunderstruck is only good because of the halving of armor values, which means it's better against heavily armored targets and weaker than a Barret against unarmored or lightly armored targets. I'm fine with that since it means the Thunderstruck is filling in the role that I envision assault cannons filling. The Panther and Vigorous suck though.

Indeed... No arguments here...




Price is often an issue, which is why I do not even buy the Barrett. I opt for the PSG1.



Indeed. More often than not, a Sniper Rifle is all that you really need. However, for those times where you really need an Assault Cannon, the Thunderstruck is the only way to go.

I think some modifications can not be made on assault cannons because they are not normal weapons, and have special ammo. Like adding auto fire to a dart gun. Some people let it fly and others do not.

A highly modified sniper rifle or assault rifle seems more appealing if you min max a little, because of modding limitations mentioned above.

Assault cannons do have a use as a fairly cheap to fire heavy weapon if that is the skill set you are going for. There are some deadly weapons in group.

I have a soft spot for the Ares Desert Strike.

I do like the Sniper Rifle class because I wouldn't say any particular rifle is better than another. Each one has a niche that it fills and fills well.

Ares Desert Strike - Range.
Barret - Raw damage and armor penetration.
PSG Enforcer - Multiple ammo types.
Ranger Arms - Disassembly.
Walther - Rugged.

This is true. Though you can obtain multiple roles with your classifications above, by Modding the weapon to do so. My PSG-1 also possesses the Disassembly and Range Niches you indicate above. Hard to get the Damage output of the Barrett with the PSG unless you go with High Power Mods. But then, you may not be able to use any Specialty High-Power Rounds, dependant upon the table you are at.

Stahlseele, making Assault Cannon rounds explosive probably is a quick, functional fix. It *still* doesn't help them hurt vehicles/bunkers more, but the explosive rules mean that they'll at least hurt people inside the vehicle. And it gives them a new war-crim—er, 'niche': anti-personnel.

Well, what about the demolition rules?
Doesn't Boomex attached to a wall more damage to the barrier?
And how much more attached than hitting it at high speeds can you get? ^^
And they will make an earth shattering kaboom like they are supposed to <.<

Bangalore?

Hehe, I assume any such effects are already factored in. After all, the Assault Cannon shell is not that big (if you used the Demo-by-mass rules). We could also buff the AV rounds (slightly), but I'd have to really take a look at the balance. I just blame that stupid Barrett; it should be an Assault Cannon, or Assault Cannons really should fire light tank shells. As things stand, it's just silly to reconcile those facts.

As my earlier post said, one nice advatage pather and vigorous have over the barret is that they use heavy weapons skills, there are builds for which the rest of the heavy weapons group is more usefull then the rest of the longarms group, on those occasions the barret loses purely on the ground that it needs the longarms skill to use one.

*nods*
you are probably right . . again . . know it all <.<;, *grins*

Off the rack is the only way to compare weapons. My character also has a Ares Desert Strike stashed at every one of his safehouses....

I wonder if it would be a good idea to *really* boost the AP of Assault Cannons (without requiring the AV rounds). They could have their niche as major armor-defeating, and rockets would still be more raw damage. If you use any of the vehicle weapons, you'd probably have to rebalance them. Eh, oh well.

But that could be a possible fix, though... It is definitely something to think about anyways.

Actually, you can make any Single Shot weapon a Burst Fire or Full Auto weapon. Upgrading SS or SA to BF or FA is a large modification (4 slots, 2000+weapon cost ). Now if you were add FA to the Panther XXL you're more than doubling its cost, but now it has SS/FA as its mode.

Again, only if you ignore the 'no exotic ammo' rule. You're right for normal firearms, just not assault cannons.

Assault cannon don't use exotic ammunition.
The example in the text for exotic ammo is pain inducer.

Or, say, assault cannon rounds. Or Gauss rounds. Or rockets. If these aren't, nothing is. No, it doesn't say, 'No Assault Cannon ammo'.

I probably wouldn't allow grenade launchers, either. Definitely not lasers, tasers, nor mortars. Probably not the three 'foldable'/puzzle spy pistols.

Didn't think assault cannons in general were considered to have exotic ammo myself. The Ares Thunderstruck, sure, since it's an electromagnetic mass driver rather than a slug thrower. I had figured most assault cannon ammo was like really, really large caliber ammo, similar to what more conventional firearms used.

And it's not just exotic ammo, it's unusual loading mechanisms too that can't have their firing mode changed. The Sakura Fubuki is mentioned as one that can't be changed (definitely an unusual loading style there), and the mentioned spy toys I'd say too would be disallowed. I'd also say grenade and rocket launchers would qualify as an unusual loading mechanism. Lasers, tasers, flamethrowers, and anything with a payload of a single shot (like mortars) would be prohibited as well.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The foldables, for example, don't all fire non-regular ammo (I think?), so I was indeed combining the two restrictions. AFAIK, assault cannons are not just big normal guns (like the Barrett). They're wacky mini-tank-cannons, and they certainly have special ammo. Whether it's 'exotic' is a subjective question, but it seems exotic to me.

Well, I would put Assault Cannon Rounds as a minimum of 20mm and going up to, say, 40mm. And yes, these are Exotic rounds, when compared to standard ammunition.

I could take a house rule on it, either which way; kind of a hard part here when exotic ammo is not more clearly defined for some. To me, assault cannon rounds are just bigger versions of rifle rounds (save the Thunderstruck), and the artwork for both the Panther XXL and Ares Vigorous looks like the same kind of magazine and action as a rifle (only bigger).

Besides, never had a player even try for such artillery. Only one I knew was "pink mohawk" enough to want to try firing a Panther on full auto, but he played a magician instead. Managed to keep him off the guns by reminding him how potent his magic was.

I kinda go by the fact that assault cannon, AV assault cannon, and Gauss cannon rounds all have their own ammo entries, as opposed to Regular Ammo. If it uses (or can use) Regular Ammo, it's safely non-exotic.

I'm going to chime in with Yerameyahu there. If it doesn't use regular ammo, it is exotic.

Maybe we're fixing the wrong problem? It's not really that assault cannons aren't powerful enough, it's that the Barrett tends to edge in on the assault cannon territory. So making some change to the Barrett (make it an assault cannon, reduce damage / AP) would maybe be a better fix, as there wouldn't be other "ripples" that then needed fixing too.

And possibly Flechette, though I think that only applies to the Slivergun?

I agree, phlapjack77. Just chucking ideas out there. Technically speaking, the Barrett isn't an Assault Cannon, because it doesn't fire the special ammo (fluff-wise), but it sure seems like one mechanically. Basically, I think that the raison d'être of the Assault Cannon is heavy armor penetration, so one option is making it actually do that.

Agreed...

I thought the Barrett was the "Cobra Assault Cannon".

"State of the Art Bang Bang"

It is pretty awesome...